NavStrobe Position Lights

buzzard86

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jim R
Has anybody on here installed the new NavStrobe led position lights? If so, can you provide a quick PIREP? I am particularly interested in the new paddle style, not the old cylinder ones that were widely known to cause RFI.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/el/ledlighting_znavstrobe/navstrobesextant.php

I talked to the guy that makes these and he said the new ones have 1/10 the rfi as the old ones. They are pricey for what they are, but provide the visibility of a strobe at a fraction of the cost of a full-fledged strobe system.

Jim
 
Yep, they start talking about it in post number 21. They are combo Nav/position lights with strobes built in.

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66171&highlight=led+position

Jim

Hey Jim -

Thanks for pointing me to that thread. Somehow I had missed that discussion.

I am still interested in getting the feedback of someone who has installed the new lights. I've gotten lots of feedback that the older cylinder style were cheaply made, fit loosely in the socket, and created a ton of radio interference.

I brought these concerns directly to the guy who makes them, and he assured me that all of these issues have been resolved in the newer "Sextant" model bulbs. I'd like to find out from an objective user if this is indeed the case.

If the quality is good and the RFI has been eliminated, these seem like a relatively affordable way to increase visibility.

Jim
 
We saw them at the Aircraftspruce booth during Oshkosh, and bought a set for our plane! I haven't noticed any RFI interference. My buddy admired our fancy lights, and bought a set for his plane too. No issues.
 
We saw them at the Aircraftspruce booth during Oshkosh, and bought a set for our plane! I haven't noticed any RFI interference. My buddy admired our fancy lights, and bought a set for his plane too. No issues.

Glad to hear the good report. Thanks Steve!

Jim
 
can these be used in certified craft since they're TSO'ed? The Q&A section lead you to believe that you can.
 
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can these be used in certified craft since they're TSO'ed? The Q&A section lead you to believe that you can.


They are full of crap. Read 23.1385 including the rules listed in that regulation.
 
can these be used in certified craft since they're TSO'ed? The Q&A section lead you to believe that you can.

That was going to be my next question. The spruce ad says that they meet the TSO requirements but does not specifically say that these are TSO'd. Not sure how to interpret this.

The q&a section does explicitly say that these meet FAA 20-74 and don't even require a logbook entry.
 
That was going to be my next question. The spruce ad says that they meet the TSO requirements but does not specifically say that these are TSO'd. Not sure how to interpret this.

The q&a section does explicitly say that these meet FAA 20-74 and don't even require a logbook entry.


See #7. When you alter an aircraft, no matter how mundane it may seem, the end product has to meet the rules it was originally certified to.
 
I don't understand how they look/project. They have a flat paddle sticking out. I can see how they are very visible in the two directions the paddle faces. But what about the other two directions and straight out from the bulb? T

he white marker light make sense. I'm good to go with that one. It is the Red & Green lights that I'm confused about.

Does it actually put out light in every direction except toward the base?

Jim
 

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So if you replaced your position lights with these, would that mean any time your position lights were on you'd have strobes on too?

Seems like that could be annoying for ground ops.
 
So if you replaced your position lights with these, would that mean any time your position lights were on you'd have strobes on too?

Seems like that could be annoying for ground ops.

Turn it on the first time and you only get nav lights. Turn the switch off & then on again and you get Nav & Strobe.

Jim
 
A handful of folks on the CPA forums have had issues with the lights indicating they're pretty sensitive to bad or weak ground. Problems have been fixed by cleaning up all contacts in the nav light sockets/wiring.

I'm with Brian though, until official installation approval arrives I'll be anxiously waiting to install them in our 172.
 
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It's a light bulb. How much FAA engineering do you think (say) the Q4509 landing light bulb had?
 
It's a light bulb. How much FAA engineering do you think (say) the Q4509 landing light bulb had?

I thought that, too, but I remember someone pulling up a FAR that specifically mentions how much brightness and angle of visibility that a bulb has.

found it. FAR 23.1401
 
Everyone who complains simply doesn't "get it"

Landing/Taxi lights have no "minimum performance" requirements to meet. It's very simple to comply with §23.1383 Taxi and landing lights.

Each taxi and landing light must be designed and installed so that:
(a) No dangerous glare is visible to the pilots.
(b) The pilot is not seriously affected by halation.
(c) It provides enough light for night operations.
(d) It does not cause a fire hazard in any configuration.

Navigation (Position) lighting is a whole different ballgame and much more complex. It's very specific. You cannot replace the bulb in a nav light with any LED you want, no matter how hard you want to believe it.

§23.1385 Position light system installation.

(a) General. Each part of each position light system must meet the applicable requirements of this section and each system as a whole <think as installed> must meet the requirements of §§23.1387 through 23.1397. (this is the reason a TSO'ed LED replacement position light may not be drop in replacements from halogens, the TSO does not cover the regulations that the system must meet as installed)
(b) Left and right position lights. Left and right position lights must consist of a red and a green light spaced laterally as far apart as practicable and installed on the airplane such that, with the airplane in the normal flying position, the red light is on the left side and the green light is on the right side.
(c) Rear position light. The rear position light must be a white light mounted as far aft as practicable on the tail or on each wing tip.
(d) Light covers and color filters. Each light cover or color filter must be at least flame resistant and may not change color or shape or lose any appreciable light transmission during normal use.


§23.1387 Position light system dihedral angles.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, each position light must, as installed, show unbroken light within the dihedral angles described in this section.
(b) Dihedral angle L (left) is formed by two intersecting vertical planes, the first parallel to the longitudinal axis of the airplane, and the other at 110 degrees to the left of the first, as viewed when looking forward along the longitudinal axis.
(c) Dihedral angle R (right) is formed by two intersecting vertical planes, the first parallel to the longitudinal axis of the airplane, and the other at 110 degrees to the right of the first, as viewed when looking forward along the longitudinal axis.
(d) Dihedral angle A (aft) is formed by two intersecting vertical planes making angles of 70 degrees to the right and to the left, respectively, to a vertical plane passing through the longitudinal axis, as viewed when looking aft along the longitudinal axis.
(e) If the rear position light, when mounted as far aft as practicable in accordance with §23.1385(c), cannot show unbroken light within dihedral angle A (as defined in paragraph (d) of this section), a solid angle or angles of obstructed visibility totaling not more than 0.04 steradians is allowable within that dihedral angle, if such solid angle is within a cone whose apex is at the rear position light and whose elements make an angle of 30° with a vertical line passing through the rear position light.

§23.1389 Position light distribution and intensities.

(a) General. The intensities prescribed in this section must be provided by new equipment with each light cover and color filter in place. Intensities must be determined with the light source operating at a steady value equal to the average luminous output of the source at the normal operating voltage of the airplane. The light distribution and intensity of each position light must meet the requirements of paragraph (b) of this section.
(b) Position lights. The light distribution and intensities of position lights must be expressed in terms of minimum intensities in the horizontal plane, minimum intensities in any vertical plane, and maximum intensities in overlapping beams, within dihedral angles L, R, and A, and must meet the following requirements:
(1) Intensities in the horizontal plane. Each intensity in the horizontal plane (the plane containing the longitudinal axis of the airplane and perpendicular to the plane of symmetry of the airplane) must equal or exceed the values in §23.1391.
(2) Intensities in any vertical plane. Each intensity in any vertical plane (the plane perpendicular to the horizontal plane) must equal or exceed the appropriate value in §23.1393, where I is the minimum intensity prescribed in §23.1391 for the corresponding angles in the horizontal plane.
(3) Intensities in overlaps between adjacent signals. No intensity in any overlap between adjacent signals may exceed the values in §23.1395, except that higher intensities in overlaps may be used with main beam intensities substantially greater than the minima specified in §§23.1391 and 23.1393, if the overlap intensities in relation to the main beam intensities do not adversely affect signal clarity. When the peak intensity of the left and right position lights is more than 100 candles, the maximum overlap intensities between them may exceed the values in §23.1395 if the overlap intensity in Area A is not more than 10 percent of peak position light intensity and the overlap intensity in Area B is not more than 2.5 percent of peak position light intensity.
(c) Rear position light installation. A single rear position light may be installed in a position displaced laterally from the plane of symmetry of an airplane if—
(1) The axis of the maximum cone of illumination is parallel to the flight path in level flight; and
(2) There is no obstruction aft of the light and between planes 70 degrees to the right and left of the axis of maximum illumination.

§23.1391 Minimum intensities in the horizontal plane of position lights.

Each position light intensity must equal or exceed the applicable values in the following table:
Dihedral angle (light included)Angle from right or left of longitudinal axis, measured from dead aheadIntensity (candles)L and R (red and green)0° to 10°
10° to 20°
20° to 110°40
30
5A (rear white)110° to 180°20



§23.1395 Maximum intensities in overlapping beams of position lights.

No position light intensity may exceed the applicable values in the following equal or exceed the applicable values in §23.1389(b)(3):
OverlapsMaximum intensityArea A (candles)Area B (candles)Green in dihedral angle L101Red in dihedral angle R101Green in dihedral angle A51Red in dihedral angle A51Rear white in dihedral angle L51Rear white in dihedral angle R51

Where—
(a) Area A includes all directions in the adjacent dihedral angle that pass through the light source and intersect the common boundary plane at more than 10 degrees but less than 20 degrees; and
(b) Area B includes all directions in the adjacent dihedral angle that pass through the light source and intersect the common boundary plane at more than 20 degrees.

§23.1397 Color specifications.

Each position light color must have the applicable International Commission on Illumination chromaticity coordinates as follows:
(a) Aviation red—
y is not greater than 0.335; and
z is not greater than 0.002.

(b) Aviation green—
x is not greater than 0.440−0.320y;
x is not greater than y−0.170; and
y is not less than 0.390−0.170x.

(c) Aviation white—
x is not less than 0.300 and not greater than 0.540;
y is not less than x−0.040 or y0−0.010, whichever is the smaller; and
y is not greater than x+0.020 nor 0.636−0.400x;
Where y0 is the y coordinate of the Planckian radiator for the value of x considered.



If your nav light alteration complies with all the rules above, then and only then, is it legal. This is why only IA's and mechanics are allowed to perform aircraft alterations. The older CAR aircraft are certificated pretty much identical to the part 23 rules as far as lighting goes.
 
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Everyone who complains simply doesn't "get it"

Navigation (Position) lighting is a whole different ballgame and much more complex.
...
Where y0 is the y coordinate of the Planckian radiator for the value of x considered.

May I freely translate?

"We hired us an engineer with a PhD and we've got nothing for him to do. Turn him loose on the Nav Light spec and let's see something REALLY complex."

That's the ONLY way you will get a reference to a Planckian radiator OR the integral equation (which you didn't copy over) involving an integral with no upper or lower bound and impossible to uniquely solve.

Trust me, I've rewritten more PhD specs than I care to go into.

Jim
.
 
May I freely translate?

"We hired us an engineer with a PhD and we've got nothing for him to do. Turn him loose on the Nav Light spec and let's see something REALLY complex."

That's the ONLY way you will get a reference to a Planckian radiator OR the integral equation (which you didn't copy over) involving an integral with no upper or lower bound and impossible to uniquely solve.

Trust me, I've rewritten more PhD specs than I care to go into.

Jim
.


Well put. Just read the AC on nav light compliance...

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...b09b4a7057d862569ae006d35d1/$FILE/AC20-74.pdf
 
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That was going to be my next question. The spruce ad says that they meet the TSO requirements but does not specifically say that these are TSO'd. Not sure how to interpret this.

The q&a section does explicitly say that these meet FAA 20-74 and don't even require a logbook entry.

Stating no logbook entry required for maintenance done is a big red flag:yikes:
 
While the NavStrobe is a great product, it is still not legal to install on Type Certificated aircraft. The company is pursuing a Canadian PMA, which the FAA will recognize. Until then, you would need a Field Approval to install them. You will also need special placarding for the nav light switch to describe the operations of the new system.

The company claims that the lamps meet the TSO requirements of the FAA, but that is less than half the battle. Meeting a TSO qualifies a part as aircraft quality, and then you need a Parts Manufacturing Approval to sell that standard (TSO) product as an approved part. Under our current regs these are only for experimental aircraft. One day we'll get better regs that encourage innovative products like these, and cut the cost so more people can enjoy the benefits of improved lighting.

I am in contact with NavStrobe and will post the PMA letter once it is approved. This may be 4-6 weeks, or 4-6 months, depending on Canadian bureaucracy.
 
It gets worse:

Here's the killer. These lamps are supposed to replace NAV lamps, BUT..., and I quote from the manufacturer:

"When these lights are in strobe mode, do the red & green nav lights still illuminate between strobe flashes?
Per the supplier: No. There is no light output between light bursts.

Do these satisfy the anti-collision beacon requirement for night VFR?
Per the supplier: My strobe lights do not meet the requirements for anti-collision lights. They are only a replacement for the standard navigation or position lights, with the additional strobe feature for safety." **********************

So you no longer have nav lights when the strobes are on. That's a deal breaker, since nav lights are required for night flight, and they do NOT meet the requirements for strobe lights. So you've now lost your nav light function (intentionally to boot), which is a Part 91.205c, violation in addition to the Unapproved Parts that made your airplane Unairworthy the moment you installed them.
 
I'd throw them on the Flybaby if they were under a hundred dollars. $300? No thanks.
 
See #7. When you alter an aircraft, no matter how mundane it may seem, the end product has to meet the rules it was originally certified to.

My kit came with an STC.
 
But did it come with a PMA?


Pretty sure Tom is referring to 34V, which IIRC he bought shiny new Whelen stuff, which is PMA'ed as replacement parts for the part # installed under the STC.
 
But did it come with a PMA?

Why would it require a PMA? It was a whelen product built by Whelen.

the PMA is basically permission to manufacturer a copy of some other manufacturers product.

My 170 came from the factory with standard nav lights, the whelen kit changes the design of the aircraft to strobes, that requires a STC.

which returns the aircraft to service by the A&P-IA without further approval.
 
Pretty sure Tom is referring to 34V, which IIRC he bought shiny new Whelen stuff, which is PMA'ed as replacement parts for the part # installed under the STC.

Actually no, the whelen kit does not need a PMA, it is a whelen product built by Whelen. If it were a Whelen product built by you then you would need PMA approval from the FAA.
 
:rolleyes2:

PMA is very similar to a production certificate.

Almost, because it has been approved as a replacement part by the FAA by the PMA process.

The best example we have of this is the TKM radios, they are approved as a replacement for Narco as a replacement part.
 
Actually no, the whelen kit does not need a PMA, it is a whelen product built by Whelen. If it were a Whelen product built by you then you would need PMA approval from the FAA.


:rolleyes2:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...2dd386257472005724ef/$FILE/Order 8110.42C.pdf
Who Needs A PMA?
a. General Requirements. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) § 21.303(a) requires any person producing replacement or modification parts for sale for installation on a type-certificated product to get a PMA. A PMA is a combined design and production approval for replacement parts. Also we may use a PMA for the production of modification parts from supplemental type certificates (STC). The prior STC approves the design and installation of these modification parts in products. However, if any replacement part alters a product by introducing a major change, then 14 CFR § 21.113 requires an STC for the approval of these parts. See FAA Order 8110.4, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Type Certification[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman], for STC procedures. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]​

[/FONT]
 
Whelen can build whatever they want, but without a PMA its not eligible for type certificated products.
 
:rolleyes2:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...2dd386257472005724ef/$FILE/Order 8110.42C.pdf
Who Needs A PMA?
a. General Requirements. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) § 21.303(a) requires any person producing replacement or modification parts for sale for installation on a type-certificated product to get a PMA. A PMA is a combined design and production approval for replacement parts. Also we may use a PMA for the production of modification parts from supplemental type certificates (STC). The prior STC approves the design and installation of these modification parts in products. However, if any replacement part alters a product by introducing a major change, then 14 CFR § 21.113 requires an STC for the approval of these parts. See FAA Order 8110.4, [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Type Certification[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman], for STC procedures. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]​

[/FONT]

There is no conflict in what is written there and what I wrote.

Whelen is not modifying any thing by manufacturing replacement parts for their systems. If you were manufacturing replacement parts that are either the same or modified for the replacement of Whelen systems you would need a PMA.
 
the PMA is basically permission to manufacturer a copy of some other manufacturers product.


If it is actually manufactured using the OEM data then there must be licensing agreement between the two companies for one person to use another person's data. The person wishing to build stuff using said data would still need to peruse their own production certificate for the manufacturing facility. There will be a PMA issued to this new manufacturer that lists that licensing agreement on it that says the part is exactly the same as the OEM's.
 
There is no conflict in what is written there and what I wrote.

Whelen is not modifying any thing by manufacturing replacement parts for their systems. If you were manufacturing replacement parts that are either the same or modified for the replacement of Whelen systems you would need a PMA.


It says for producing replacement parts for sale on TC aircraft, you must have a PMA.
 
The PMA is a certificate that says "the manufacturer has met the quality control plans etc and all the requirements to manufacture this part #XXXX for sale on TC aircraft"

That's what a PMA is.
 
c. Other Production Approval Holders (PAH). [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Holders of a production certificate, approved production inspection system, or TSO authorization do not need a PMA to produce replacement parts for their products or articles under their existing design and production approvals. If a supplier to a production approval holder (PAH) intends to sell a part without direct ship authority, then that supplier needs a PMA. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Back to whelen lights[/FONT][/FONT]

The STC allows you to alter the airplane to part # ABC, the PMA allows them to build and sell part ABC for sale on TC airplanes. Welen could outsouce the manufacturing of ABC and if that company wants to sell ABC, they need a PMA.

Even the new whelen LED landing lights are produced under a PMA.

 
I installed them, I love them, I'm not removing them. They are brighter, run cool (safer from a fire risk) and the strobe feaure is great when I want to turn my hangar into a disco, along with my unsynchronized tail and belly strobes and my wig-wag wingtip lights.

It's a flipping bulb replacement guys! I've also replaced my GE 330 1w insrument lights with LED. What say you? No more heat out of those either.

God bless the guy that finally invented a reasonably priced LED upgrade for the masses...
 
FWIW- Posted on Mooneyspace in January 2014:

"Just talked by phone with Chris from Navstrobelighting- He says-

NO, they are not legal yet on certified aircraft.

He has filed all the papers to make them compliant but no word back from the FAA yet

NO they are NOT "Standard Parts" as described in the AC as there are no Standard Part Designs Approved for LED Lights YET. FAA say they are 2 to 3 years away from that.

He says that he uses "standard parts" in his adds in a very "liberal" sense? It's up to who ever installs them to make sure they are acceptable.

SO, for those who have them installed, you need to make sure they are acceptable to your local FAA FSDO office or else remove them and install the original bulbs. You don't want a violation if seen by our "friends".

I hope this clears up any confusion. "
 
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