Navajo crash - Medford OR

AlleyCat67

AlleyCat67

Pre-takeoff checklist
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AleyCat67
This is absolutely horrid to see! :(
 
OMG... that was terrible. RIP pilot (and hopefully no PAX)

Warning: Video may be a little tough to watch:
 
That's a pretty busy SID, and pretty crappy weather. Departing on 14 makes it especially fun.
 
Ugh that’s brutal. Like a missile. God bless. If your not used to taking that SID it certainly looks like it might be a handful.
 
Quote of the day:

"It is safe to say one person was on board for sure but we do not know if there was, we are still looking into that," Thompson said.
 
The victims were a couple in their 60s, from Fallon, NV. There aren't any news reports that provide information about the cause, other than those which state what is obvious from the video...the aircraft hit a car lot in a vertical dive at high speed, and had been fueled with 128 gallons of 100 LL prior to takeoff.
 
AlleyCat67 said:
Kathryn's report:
http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2021/12/piper-pa-31-350-navajo-chieftain-n64br.html#comment-form

RIP.
In the comments someone posted ATC audio (with a somewhat misleading MS Flight Simulator animation). Without going into too much speculation, it's a bit painful to listen to. Pilot seemed to be unfamiliar with the SID, and was depending on tower to talk him through it after take off into IMC.
Click to expand...

One thing that sticks out is the controller's response to the pilot's question about having ATC call his turn - "Negative, just fly the SID as published," followed soon after by a more detailed series of instructions that may have further overwhelmed the obviously task saturated pilot, and then a low altitude alert seconds later.

Not to say controllers are responsible for saving pilots from themselves, but it's hard not to wonder if a simple "turn to xx heading and climb to yy feet" might have led to a different outcome.
 
flightwriter said:
One thing that sticks out is the controller's response to the pilot's question about having ATC call his turn - "Negative, just fly the SID as published," followed soon after by a more detailed series of instructions that may have further overwhelmed the obviously task saturated pilot, and then a low altitude alert seconds later.

Not to say controllers are responsible for saving pilots from themselves, but it's hard not to wonder if a simple "turn to xx heading and climb to yy feet" might have led to a different outcome.
Click to expand...
The controller may not have had the capability to provide vectors. I think it’s also fair and reasonable for a controller to assume every pilot on an IFR flight plan is capable of flying the SID of in an appropriately equipped aircraft.
 
I am having a hard time believing that the SID had anything to do with this accident. The SID may appear busy, but the cleared route is very straightforward. Climbing right turn to the NDB, then BRUTE and then LANKS. If one is flying with an ADF and a VOR, then admittedly it can get busy, but someone else mentioned that there was a Garmin 430. Then it is just a sequence of three waypoints. The video of the vertical dive suggests something more serious, like icing or structural failure.
 
sarangan said:
I am having a hard time believing that the SID had anything to do with this accident. The SID may appear busy, but the cleared route is very straightforward. Climbing right turn to the NDB, then BRUTE and then LANKS. If one is flying with an ADF and a VOR, then admittedly it can get busy, but someone else mentioned that there was a Garmin 430. Then it is just a sequence of three waypoints. The video of the vertical dive suggests something more serious, like icing or structural failure.
Click to expand...

The flight track looks like a textbook graveyard spiral.

AVvXsEgyFJp9Spb81CgDRILAF4AN5gtRqFXWlFGLtzA0sDvGxxK5jyT5QLNmEKlWyOjnYTac1eEZsybZlxjmmS2PX1CoUcfV3hY2Xjo9_DDGwT-zMLbxbwyNPUMOkwQBq7JYYVugo7LyxNJer5vbIplrvDTE469CTCM6pb_UYkpp0eQ-JXkY-TuCOMJVXattaQ=w640-h360
 
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sarangan said:
The video of the vertical dive suggests something more serious, like icing
Click to expand...

The Navajo will carry a lot of ice. I once landed with about 8 inches of ice on the nose.

Of course this particular plane might not have had ice protection, or it might not have been working, or the pilot might have just not used it.
 
Kyle N said:
The flight track looks like a textbook graveyard spiral.

AVvXsEgyFJp9Spb81CgDRILAF4AN5gtRqFXWlFGLtzA0sDvGxxK5jyT5QLNmEKlWyOjnYTac1eEZsybZlxjmmS2PX1CoUcfV3hY2Xjo9_DDGwT-zMLbxbwyNPUMOkwQBq7JYYVugo7LyxNJer5vbIplrvDTE469CTCM6pb_UYkpp0eQ-JXkY-TuCOMJVXattaQ=w640-h360
Click to expand...

actually part of that track is what I'd expect to see if flying the SID.........he was taking off rwy14:

upload_2021-12-8_17-33-43.png
 
Kyle N said:
The flight track looks like a textbook graveyard spiral.

AVvXsEgyFJp9Spb81CgDRILAF4AN5gtRqFXWlFGLtzA0sDvGxxK5jyT5QLNmEKlWyOjnYTac1eEZsybZlxjmmS2PX1CoUcfV3hY2Xjo9_DDGwT-zMLbxbwyNPUMOkwQBq7JYYVugo7LyxNJer5vbIplrvDTE469CTCM6pb_UYkpp0eQ-JXkY-TuCOMJVXattaQ=w640-h360
Click to expand...

It sure does. Very sad. I flew that DP today on the Redbird FMX without a GPS (just an ADF and VOR). The student pilot (who doesn't have his rating yet) flew it without any trouble.
 
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eman1200 said:
actually part of that track is what I'd expect to see if flying the SID.........he was taking off rwy14:

View attachment 102543
Click to expand...

270 degrees of heading change and he was still abeam the departure end of the runway and still less than 2,000'. By the SID, he should have been over the beacon at 270 degrees of heading change. And, for time and distance, he should've been higher than 2,000'.
 
The audio made it very clear that the pilot had absolutely no clue how a SID works, but he didn't decline it. He clearly got disoriented while failing to understand what he was flying and ended up in a spiral. Incredibly sad.

wilkersk said:
That's a pretty busy SID, and pretty crappy weather. Departing on 14 makes it especially fun.
Click to expand...

benyflyguy said:
Ugh that’s brutal. Like a missile. God bless. If your not used to taking that SID it certainly looks like it might be a handful.
Click to expand...

What is busy or a handful about a climbing right turn, straight, 30 degrees right? It is less complicated than most ODPs, which this almost certainly is a published version of.

Tarheelpilot said:
The controller may not have had the capability to provide vectors. I think it’s also fair and reasonable for a controller to assume every pilot on an IFR flight plan is capable of flying the SID of in an appropriately equipped aircraft.
Click to expand...

MEF is a VFR contract tower. Who even knows if they have a STARS screen, or even an old D-BRITE, repeater in the cab? They definitely aren't providing vectors.

sarangan said:
I am having a hard time believing that the SID had anything to do with this accident. The SID may appear busy, but the cleared route is very straightforward. Climbing right turn to the NDB, then BRUTE and then LANKS. If one is flying with an ADF and a VOR, then admittedly it can get busy, but someone else mentioned that there was a Garmin 430. Then it is just a sequence of three waypoints. The video of the vertical dive suggests something more serious, like icing or structural failure.
Click to expand...

The only thing the SID had to do with this accident is the pilot accepting a procedure he did not understand. I don't even understand why he needed phonetics - even a 430 can load up a SID.

This was definitely not icing or a structural failure. Given how thin the layer was, it would be impossible to ice up a fat wing airframe like a Navajo that quickly anyway - if there even was icing. This was purely an issue of airmanship.
 
wilkersk said:
270 degrees of heading change and he was still abeam the departure end of the runway and still less than 2,000'. By the SID, he should have been over the beacon at 270 degrees of heading change. And, for time and distance, he should've been higher than 2,000'.
Click to expand...

My point is that first right turn he makes was his version of the DP. Not saying he flew it correctly, just saying that part of the circle isn’t a graveyard spiral, as was mentioned. He obviously didn’t fly it correctly.
 
There was some footage from further away showing the Navajo pulling up at low level before coming back into view in the near vertical attitude and crashing a few seconds later. Can't seem to find it right now. Anybody else?
 
When he asked if it was BRUTE 7 our Route 7, I wondered whether he was even a pilot.

He was way behind the airplane before he even taxied.
 
Spinka said:
There was some footage from further away showing the Navajo pulling up at low level before coming back into view in the near vertical attitude and crashing a few seconds later. Can't seem to find it right now. Anybody else?
Click to expand...
It’s on the sac bee website. Can’t seem to post the link. He definitely does pull up hard to get level and actually start what looks to be a climb before a turn back to where he then nosedives in. It’s difficult to make out his track as to how he seems to pass the crash site
 
It's hard to tell, but it looks like the wings are gone outside of the engines. Probably just the angle of view, but that would be consistent with that crash a few months ago with the folded up wings...
 
Freeze frame the video and you can see a wingtip strobe as he is headed down.
 
Big dive before a climbing turn to badness. Perhaps there was some sort of incapacitation.
 
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