NASA/ASRS report consequences

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Timbeck2

Timbeck2

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Timbeck2
BLUF: Think about the consequences when you file. You may just force ATC’s hand to act when it wasn’t necessary.

I had an incident recently when an aircraft entered the runway without authorization. Not naming names so don’t ask but it was a military aircraft. Long story short: they thought they were authorized to enter the runway by ground control. Tower (me) called them on it and they apologized. Good enough for me. When they got to their destination, they filed an ASRS report but instead of a lesson learned, they basically blamed it on the tower. Now the whole safety world is pointing fingers. A transcript of the recording was made and sent which clearly shows that the aircraft was told twice to “back taxi with tower” so I’m and my ground controller are cleared of all wrong doing. But now I have to file a runway incursion report as a rebuttal to the ASRS filed by the crew.

I guess I won’t be so nice and accept an apology next time.
 
I think people overuse these reports, from what you wrote up there's no reason they would have had to have filled one out

When I did my multi check ride we were cleared to land number one (coming from a practice ILS), someone else in the pattern turned base early and cut us off.. since we were now number two and presumably more situationally aware I made the call to go around.

Tower chewed out the guy in front of us after he landed, but no number was given. I offset, landed, otherwise uneventful

I asked the dpe if we should fill any report out, and I was summarily told no. Why would we? And we'd just end up making more work for the tower
 
Exactly. I would have done nothing. He apologized and I was okay with that. Done deal, lesson learned and apologies accepted. I guess they stewed about it all the way to the East coast and decided to do something about it. Too bad it’s going to bite them squarely in the ass.
 
Timbeck2 said:
BLUF: Think about the consequences when you file. You may just force ATC’s hand to act when it wasn’t necessary.

I had an incident recently when an aircraft entered the runway without authorization. Not naming names so don’t ask but it was a military aircraft. Long story short: they thought they were authorized to enter the runway by ground control. Tower (me) called them on it and they apologized. Good enough for me. When they got to their destination, they filed an ASRS report but instead of a lesson learned, they basically blamed it on the tower. Now the whole safety world is pointing fingers. A transcript of the recording was made and sent which clearly shows that the aircraft was told twice to “back taxi with tower” so I’m and my ground controller are cleared of all wrong doing. But now I have to file a runway incursion report as a rebuttal to the ASRS filed by the crew.

I guess I won’t be so nice and accept an apology next time.
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Do you have the transcript? Can you post it?
 
Tantalum said:
When I did my multi check ride we were cleared to land number one (coming from a practice ILS), someone else in the pattern turned base early and cut us off.. since we were now number two and presumably more situationally aware I made the call to go around.

Tower chewed out the guy in front of us after he landed, but no number was given. I offset, landed, otherwise uneventful

I asked the dpe if we should fill any report out, and I was summarily told no. Why would we? And we'd just end up making more work for the tower
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Why would you even consider it? The other guy might, but not you.

And if they wrote it without being a dick, it shouldn’t be more work for the tower.
 
It surprises me that military wouldn't handle this "in house"
 
Same happened to me....but I was flying. The controller wanted me to report mid downwind. I was set up for base and the only one around. I entered further down wind and he didn't like it. Jawed me out once on the ground. Barely let me off the runway before he stopped me to give me a phone number to call. He then let me taxi to the ramp. I called. It was ridiculous and a definite power play on his part. 15 minutes of jawing on his part and ridiculing and insinuating I was a student. I did file a NASA report. I also told him that I'd be glad to sit down with his boss and his boss's boss. I'm from the FAA and here to help. :D

Nothing came of it.....I never heard from them. I do hope he gets reviewed and reprimanded.
 
As far as I was concerned, it was handled before they were cleared for take off.

I learned the next day that it wasn’t. And only because they thought that they were right and wanted to prove a point. I doubt it will go to the FAA so in essence, it WILL be handled in house. I just want to be a fly on the wall when they realize that they should have just kept their mouth shut
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Same happened to me....but I was flying. The controller wanted me to report mid downwind. I was set up for base and the only one around. I entered further down wind and he didn't like it. Jawed me out once on the ground. Barely let me off the runway before he stopped me to give me a phone number to call. He then let me taxi to the ramp. I called. It was ridiculous and a definite power play on his part. 15 minutes of jawing on his part and ridiculing and insinuating I was a student. I did file a NASA report. I also told him that I'd be glad to sit down with his boss and his boss's boss. I'm from the FAA and here to help. :D

Nothing came of it.....I never heard from them.
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I’m not surprised. I’ve met a lot of controllers during my career who can’t differentiate between what’s important and what just needs to be let go.

In my case this time, I let it go and it came back to bite me. Good thing my transcript armor was intact.
 
But doesn’t the NASA report protect them from consequences? I had never considered that the content of the report itself might affect that. It makes sense that you then have to file a report to clear yourself of wrongdoing, but it seems to me they wouldn’t face any consequences either way.
 
mryan75 said:
But doesn’t the NASA report protect them from consequences? I had never considered that the content of the report itself might affect that. It makes sense that you then have to file a report to clear yourself of wrongdoing, but it seems to me they wouldn’t face any consequences either way.
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IF they stated a lesson learned on the report, nothing would have happened. I haven’t read it yet but from what I’ve heard, it was one of those “we screwed up but it wasn’t our fault “ reports.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Why would you even consider it?
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It was worryingly close.. and since we had been cleared a few miles out I had a moment of panic after landing "did I mess up?"

bottom line to me was basically in most cases unless you're given a number to call just move on with your life.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I’m not surprised. I’ve met a lot of controllers during my career who can’t differentiate between what’s important and what just needs to be let go.

In my case this time, I let it go and it came back to bite me. Good thing my transcript armor was intact.
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I made sure that the tower could be identified by place and controller's name in my report. The guy has a history according to the linemen. That's probably how your case was flagged. Some pin head in DC reviews this stuff.
 
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Timbeck2 said:
BLUF: Think about the consequences when you file. You may just force ATC’s hand to act when it wasn’t necessary.

I had an incident recently when an aircraft entered the runway without authorization. Not naming names so don’t ask but it was a military aircraft. Long story short: they thought they were authorized to enter the runway by ground control. Tower (me) called them on it and they apologized. Good enough for me. When they got to their destination, they filed an ASRS report but instead of a lesson learned, they basically blamed it on the tower. Now the whole safety world is pointing fingers. A transcript of the recording was made and sent which clearly shows that the aircraft was told twice to “back taxi with tower” so I’m and my ground controller are cleared of all wrong doing. But now I have to file a runway incursion report as a rebuttal to the ASRS filed by the crew.

I guess I won’t be so nice and accept an apology next time.
Click to expand...

Thanks for Posting this. This is an aspect of the ASRS reports I had not considered.

Brian
 
I use ASRS every time I screw up.

I also admit to the screwing up in the report, with heaped contrition and lessons learned and ways I will attempt to sin no more.

Sounds like these clowns thought that nobody would read their attempt to shift blame?

So is the lesson here "don't lie in an ASRS report" ? because Doc Bruce would be so proud if so. :D
 
Timbeck2 said:
IF they stated a lesson learned on the report, nothing would have happened. I haven’t read it yet but from what I’ve heard, it was one of those “we screwed up but it wasn’t our fault “ reports.
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Interesting. It does seem pretty stupid on their part, filing a NASA report to assert you didn’t do something wrong. I had never even thought of that.
 
mryan75 said:
But doesn’t the NASA report protect them from consequences? I had never considered that the content of the report itself might affect that. It makes sense that you then have to file a report to clear yourself of wrongdoing, but it seems to me they wouldn’t face any consequences either way.
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I thought that was the whole point of NASA running the ASRS reports instead of the FAA, so that the information would be protected and only used for safety data gathering, not punitive actions? Wasn't that what we were told so many years ago?
 
Timbeck2 said:
Well, if they list a KC-10 at Davis Monthan AFB, then that’s the one I’m talking about.

however, the point of this whole thread is to be mindful and careful when you file a report. It may be unnecessary and/or come back to bite you.
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I was assuming he filed an I boo booed. Are you saying he filed a you boo booed?
 
midwestpa24 said:
I thought that was the whole point of NASA running the ASRS reports instead of the FAA, so that the information would be protected and only used for safety data gathering, not punitive actions? Wasn't that what we were told so many years ago?
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That was my understanding. I understand if the OP had to make a report and start any FAA action, but this sounds like the ASRS started the FAA response. This is a disconcerting development...
 
Yes. And in the OPs case he was on the receiving end of the report....as a controller. There is no protection for everyone else....except the reporter.
idahoflier said:
That was my understanding. I understand if the OP had to make a report and start any FAA action, but this sounds like the ASRS started the FAA response. This is a disconcerting development...
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Aren't runway incursions a mandatory report?
 
midwestpa24 said:
I thought that was the whole point of NASA running the ASRS reports instead of the FAA, so that the information would be protected and only used for safety data gathering, not punitive actions? Wasn't that what we were told so many years ago?
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It’s always been stated that if you admit to violations in a NASA report, it can be used against you. What’s new (to me, anyway) is that you can basically write in your ASRS report that “Tim in the tower screwed up,” and that can trigger an investigation against Tim. In this case, the investigation revealed fault on the part of the crew, forcing Tim to file THAT paperwork. The ASRS report will still probably eliminate any suspension for the pilot(s), but a violation can still occur.

Bottom line is, don’t admit OR accuse.
 
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Timbeck2 said:
IF they stated a lesson learned on the report, nothing would have happened. I haven’t read it yet but from what I’ve heard, it was one of those “we screwed up but it wasn’t our fault “ reports.
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I always state lessons learned on mine. It's in the instructions, and there are always ways that I could have handled a situation better.
 
I wonder if the original poster has any factual information to show that whatever inquiry was initiated was actually a result of someone else filing an ASRS form. Is it possible the incident came to official attention by other means?

The actions you describe seem contrary to the intent of the ASRS program, if information from a safety report resulted in, as you say, fingers being pointed against you.
The program deidentifies reports, and the information submitted is treated as confidential, with no breaches in the history of the program, per NASA.
You can read about ASRS here: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/docs/ASRS_ProgramBriefing.pdf
More about confidentiality here: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/confidentiality.html

If the events took place as you describe, I think it would be worth a complaint to the ASRS program administrator. Contact information is on the pdf link above.

Jon
 
4CornerFlyer said:
I wonder if the original poster has any factual information to show that whatever inquiry was initiated was actually a result of someone else filing an ASRS form. Is it possible the incident came to official attention by other means?



The actions you describe seem contrary to the intent of the ASRS program, if information from a safety report resulted in, as you say, fingers being pointed against you.
The program deidentifies reports, and the information submitted is treated as confidential, with no breaches in the history of the program, per NASA.
You can read about ASRS here: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/docs/ASRS_ProgramBriefing.pdf
More about confidentiality here: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/confidentiality.html

If the events took place as you describe, I think it would be worth a complaint to the ASRS program administrator. Contact information is on the pdf link above.

Jon
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No man. I made it all up just for the attention. :rolleyes:

The report was sent out yesterday via military email to approximately 150 recipients, mostly AMC (Air Mobility Command) and ACC (Air Combat Command) safety offices, entitled: “We were approved on the runway by ground control but tower said we weren’t. “

Why would I complain to the ASRS admin? They sent it out to get answers and although I wasn’t on the mailing list, it was forwarded eventually to me. The crew pointed fingers at me and my ground controller accusing us of wrongdoing. This is exactly why everything ATC is recorded otherwise it would just be the crew’s word against mine.

What exactly do you think happens to these forms, put in a box and locked up in a basement somewhere? They have a purpose.

Do I think anything will happen to the crew? Nope, but if I was wrong, I could lose my ratings. This isn’t a hill I want to die on.

Edit: the only thing confidential is the names of those involved. In fact the block entitled: Name of Reporter has the note stating “may be omitted. “When I say the crew accused “me” I mean tower controller which was indeed me.
 
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NASA identifies safety trends through the analysis of reports. Sometimes they will ask for additional data so they can properly identify and categorize an event. I don't think they would ask for the recordings pertaining to N1234, but instead something like:

1. Ground control from 2100-2120
2. Local control from 2100-2120.

The person producing the recording will likely listen to the recording and determine that something occurred that needs further investigation, especially if it was required to be reported by FAA orders.
 
Reading this I can't help but think of a similar situation folks wrestle with in life
Let's say you're involved in a little fender bender. Do you call the police for a report, or not? Lots of reasons either way so it's not so clear cut and sometimes puts people in a big bind.
 
4CornerFlyer said:
If the events took place as you describe, I think it would be worth a complaint to the ASRS program administrator.
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No, the ASRS report didn’t trigger an investigation against the reporter, which is exactly what the confidentiality documentation says.
https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/confidentiality.html
Reports sent to the ASRS are held in strict confidence. More than one million reports have been submitted to date and no reporter's identity has ever been breached by the ASRS. ASRS de-identifies reports before entering them into the incident database. All personal and organizational names are removed. Dates, times, and related information, which could be used to infer an identity, are either generalized or eliminated.

The FAA offers ASRS reporters further guarantees and incentives to report. It has committed itself not to use ASRS information against reporters in enforcement actions. It has also chosen to waive fines and penalties, subject to certain limitations, for unintentional violations of federal aviation statutes and regulations which are reported to ASRS. The FAA's initiation, and continued support of the ASRS program and its willingness to waive penalties in qualifying cases is a measure of the value it places on the safety information gathered, and the products made possible, through incident reporting to the ASRS.
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There is nothing that says it won’t trigger an investigation of someone else, especially when the “safety” aspect of the report indicates a violation or negligence on the part of someone else, which apparently this one did.

the subsequent investigation of the reporter(s) is not based on their report, but the investigation of Tim and his ground controller resulted in an incursion report that needs to be investigated as well.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I thought that was the whole point of NASA running the ASRS reports instead of the FAA, so that the information would be protected and only used for safety data gathering, not punitive actions? Wasn't that what we were told so many years ago?
Click to expand...

The information in the NASA report is not being used for punitive actions against the pilot(s). The ATC recording is what is being used.
 
Timbeck2 said:
No man. I made it all up just for the attention. :rolleyes:

The report was sent out yesterday via military email to approximately 150 recipients, mostly AMC (Air Mobility Command) and ACC (Air Combat Command) safety offices, entitled: “We were approved on the runway by ground control but tower said we weren’t. “

Why would I complain to the ASRS admin? They sent it out to get answers and although I wasn’t on the mailing list, it was forwarded eventually to me. The crew pointed fingers at me and my ground controller accusing us of wrongdoing. This is exactly why everything ATC is recorded otherwise it would just be the crew’s word against mine.

What exactly do you think happens to these forms, put in a box and locked up in a basement somewhere? They have a purpose.

Do I think anything will happen to the crew? Nope, but if I was wrong, I could lose my ratings. This isn’t a hill I want to die on.
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I understand your position and I would be ****ed too if I was you, but this doesn't sound like ASRS triggered this, it sounds like the AF started this...
 
idahoflier said:
Yes, I understand that, but in this case and based on everything I thought about ASRS and reinforced by this, https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/docs/ASRS_ProgramBriefing.pdf, I'm surprised the ASRS team zeroed in on a particular controller at a particular facility.
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Read my edit in my post above. The crew didn’t accuse Tim, they accused the tower controller… which just happens to be Tim. AKA - me. No names are used.
 
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idahoflier said:
I understand your position and I would be ****ed too if I was you, but this doesn't sound like ASRS triggered this, it sounds like the AF started this...
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The crew filled out an ASRS form. The crew and the aircraft are owned by the Air Force. The form went through Air Force Safety offices who need to know the details of what happened so they can conduct an investigation if needed. Recommendations and lessons learned fill up a very large block at the bottom of the form. It isn’t a witch hunt, they’re just doing due diligence. As I said in my OP, they didn’t have to do this. I was happy with just an apology but they thought the tower controllers were wrong and opened up this giant can of worms. There were only two of us working on Sunday so you bet I’m going to take an accusation like this personally.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Read my edit in my post above. The crew didn’t accuse Tim, they accused the tower controller… which just happens to be Tim. No names are used.
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I understand. Your incident is not unique in that it was a runway incursion. These happen all the time and based on your description of the incident and what I thought ASRS was all about, I don't see anything unique about it that would cause the ASRS team to forward all of the information (minus the pilot identity) to the FAA for followup...
 
I honestly don’t know where it goes. I was astonished to find that in less than 24 hours approximately 150 people knew about it.
 
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