[NA] They don't make cars like they used to

TMetzinger

TMetzinger

Final Approach
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Tim
They make 'em better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CU-k0XmLUk&feature=sub

I just reconsidered buying my daughter an older tank-like car when she's old enough.

When I was learning to drive - you were extremely fortunate if you had a car that lasted 100,000 miles without significant expenses like an engine or transmission rebuild, or without it rusting away. Seat belts were lap only, and car seats for kids didn't exist. And oh, yeah, an 8-Track was the upgrade from an AM/FM radio that was strictly analog. And you got 10-14 MPG if lucky. (My high school cars were a '67 Cougar, and a '79 Caprice Estate Wagon)

Now, my 20 year old Miata has 145,000 miles on it and is expected to go to 300,000 with no more than oil, plugs, wires and belts being changed regularly, and close to 30 MPG. My 10 year old Subaru has 140,000 and aside from some body dings and a collision repair doesn't have rust on it (in spite of several new england winters and time near the ocean), still gets 20+ mpg, and I expect it to still be running and safe in 10 more years.

In aviation, we've seen similar changes in Avionics. And I'm not going to bash the engine manufacturers - the design requirements for a small airplane engine are completely different than an automobile engine, and the price of getting it wrong is much much higher, and the market is much smaller. We've seen significant improvement in jet engine reliability and performance over the last 50 years, and some of the cool stuff Lycoming showed at Osh this year proves that there are improvements possible in our pistons too.

Unfortunately, we pilots are still killing ourselves (fortunately usually only ourselves) through the same stupid stuff - running out of gas, running into mountains, running into clouds when we aren't trained for it, and general stupid stuff. Car drivers haven't gotten any better either, but their vehicles offer a lot more protection than our airplanes do (and there are valid reasons for that). The Cirrus Chute and the AmSafe Airbags are the only equivalent stuff I've seen in GA. It may be possible that the new airframe designs (Diamond, Cirrus) may offer more crash protection than the older Cessna and Pipers, but generally at the speeds we hit things in airplanes it doesn't matter - Mooney's practically have a roll cage around the pilot and they still die when they turn into a lawn dart or end UWOF.

Anyway, my hat's off to the IIHS.
 
Shows that you can't fix stupid.

I'd argue that drivers have gotten worse due to the extra technology. The thought is you don't need to know how to drive anymore, that's why you have [insert new feature]. Perhaps pilots have gotten worse, too, but my suspicion is that people were always killing themselves for the same stupid reasons. Stupid is as stupid does.
 
I STILL would take that Bel Air over the Malibu any day of the week and twice in Sundays!
 
tdager said:
I STILL would take that Bel Air over the Malibu any day of the week and twice in Sundays!
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Funny. The Bel Air and others of that era do nothing for me. I tend to go for big touring cars from the 30s, muscle cars from the 60s, and Italian sports cars from the 70s. And Ferraris of any era.
 
I like the improvements in automotive technology -- my Honda Accord has 115k on it and runs and rides as well as it did with 20k.

My 2001 Yamaha FZ1 continues to amaze me -- tires, suspension, power -- all have improved dramatically in 20 years and the bike is more capable than I am -- even though I have about 20k on it.

I remember the geezers complaining when we gave up our M60A3 tanks for the M1IP. Sure, the TIS was a superior night sight -- but other than that, the M1 was 3 generations betetr than that deisel-powered death trap.

Still, sometimes low-tech is better. I still enjoy pedalling a bicycle and paddling a canoe.


So, I'm finding myself drawn to the simpler, more basic airframes of yesteryear. Though the '40 Chief I sat in last week is a bit too cramped for my 6'1" frame, a Taylorcraft or even a FlyBaby seem to distill flight down to its essence -- wind, wire, fabric, and airspeed.
 
dmccormack said:
So, I'm finding myself drawn to the simpler, more basic airframes of yesteryear. Though the '40 Chief I sat in last week is a bit too cramped for my 6'1" frame, a Taylorcraft or even a FlyBaby seem to distill flight down to its essence -- wind, wire, fabric, and airspeed.
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You and me both. I need to post pictures of the Pietenpol Air Camper I saw in Iowa. I slobbered all over it.
 
flyersfan31 said:
And Ferraris of any era.
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It's hard to go wrong with a Ferrari. Best ride of my life was in a 365 GTB/4 soft top. Top down, no seat belts, and no insulation to speak of between the engine and your legs, so it roasted you. Now THAT was a car...
 
We just rented a Malibu in Destin while on vacation and were very pleasantly surprised. As usual, there were a couple things wrong or that didn't work, but the car started right up, handled reasonably and everything was pretty instinctive to work. What really surprised us is what the trunk would hold: me, three ladies had stuff for a week including my road bike that all went in the trunk.

I've had three series BMWs since 1984. I've rented a lot of cars while traveling and thought the Malibu had come a long way.

Best,

Dave
 
Dave Siciliano said:
We just rented a Malibu in Destin while on vacation and were very pleasantly surprised. As usual, there were a couple things wrong or that didn't work, but the car started right up, handled reasonably and everything was pretty instinctive to work. What really surprised us is what the trunk would hold: me, three ladies had stuff for a week including my road bike that all went in the trunk.

I've had three series BMWs since 1984. I've rented a lot of cars while traveling and thought the Malibu had come a long way.

Best,

Dave
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The rental car I never regreted was the Ford Taurus. I had one for a week in MT 2 years ago and it averaged 25 MPG (speeds were average 90 on the highways), carried a ton, and rode solid and quiet.

The only problem was that soft, sofa-like, grandma seat -- ugh.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
...
I'd argue that drivers have gotten worse due to the extra technology. ....
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There have actually been some studies suggesting exactly that.

The theory is that humans are generally willing to accept a certain level of risk. So, say the risk level was 100 prior to airbags becoming standard, but that when airbags became available, the risk level went down 10 points. People then started driving 10 points more dangerously, because 100 is risk level that is generally acceptable while driving.

You can see that reflected with speed limits - notice that in the mid-90's, it was generally 55. Now it's 65 and, in some places, 75.

I've obviously forgotten the details, and maybe even the generalities, but it was something along those lines.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
The theory is that humans are generally willing to accept a certain level of risk. So, say the risk level was 100 prior to airbags becoming standard, but that when airbags became available, the risk level went down 10 points. People then started driving 10 points more dangerously, because 100 is risk level that is generally acceptable while driving.
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In some ways I can understand that theory but not so much with airbags. I don't even think about whether a car has airbags or not when I am driving it. Yes, I sometimes drive a car that does not have airbags. However, I can see how that theory might apply with something that you are aware you are using such as a helmet or protective equipment when motorcycling, bicycling or skiing.

Obi Heed Kenobi said:
You can see that reflected with speed limits - notice that in the mid-90's, it was generally 55. Now it's 65 and, in some places, 75.

I've obviously forgotten the details, and maybe even the generalities, but it was something along those lines.
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The speed limit was lowered to 55 in the 1970s during the gas shortages. I don't think it had anything to do with safety. At some point I think the restriction was lifted and the states gradually increased the speed limits again.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
We just rented a Malibu in Destin while on vacation and were very pleasantly surprised. As usual, there were a couple things wrong or that didn't work, but
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Am I the only one who thought Dave was talking about a Piper Malibu? ;)

Everskyward said:
In some ways I can understand that theory but not so much with airbags. I don't even think about whether a car has airbags or not when I am driving it. Yes, I sometimes drive a car that does not have airbags. However, I can see how that theory might apply with something that you are aware you are using such as a helmet or protective equipment when motorcycling, bicycling or skiing.
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You're also smarter than the average person, Mari. I've met people who have specifically said "Oh, the car has airbags, I don't need to [insert whatever safety practice]."

The speed limit was lowered to 55 in the 1970s during the gas shortages. I don't think it had anything to do with safety. At some point I think the restriction was lifted and the states gradually increased the speed limits again.
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Should also be noted that speed limits don't make anyone safer...
 
Everskyward said:
In some ways I can understand that theory but not so much with airbags. I don't even think about whether a car has airbags or not when I am driving it. Yes, I sometimes drive a car that does not have airbags. However, I can see how that theory might apply with something that you are aware you are using such as a helmet or protective equipment when motorcycling, bicycling or skiing.
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That certainly makes sense, and I've observed it firsthand when I'm skiing. Not wearing a helmet, I'm considerably more conservative then when I am wearing one - overall, the risk of serious injury probably remains about the same.


The speed limit was lowered to 55 in the 1970s during the gas shortages. I don't think it had anything to do with safety. At some point I think the restriction was lifted and the states gradually increased the speed limits again.
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That makes sense, too.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Am I the only one who thought Dave was talking about a Piper Malibu? ;)
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No.


You're also smarter than the average person, Mari. I've met people who have specifically said "Oh, the car has airbags, I don't need to [insert whatever safety practice]."

....
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I've had numerous people say to me, "my car has airbags, so I don't wear a seatbelt." Which, again if I remember correctly, actually increases the danger.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
I've had numerous people say to me, "my car has airbags, so I don't wear a seatbelt." Which, again if I remember correctly, actually increases the danger.
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It depends on the car. Some of the earlier airbags were actually designed to protect people who didn't wear their seatbelts. That, combined with all sorts of other problems in their designs, caused a number of issues. I think the newer airbag designs out there are significant better, but I just try my best not to crash. Worked pretty well so far.
 
wsuffa said:
:rolleyes2:How did we ever survive childhood?
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By knowing that if we did something stupid, we would likely not survive it or would be seriously hurt so we acted accordingly. Kids today don't get that training in their panzy safety designed playgrounds.
There's not a modern playground in existence that can teach the life skills that you learn in a playground of loose gravel on concrete, teeter totters that can hold 45 kids, fall to your death slides, suborbital trajectory swingsets and 400rpm astronaut quality training merry go rounds...especially if the playground training is supplemented with a barn on a working farm.

In some ways I can understand that theory but not so much with airbags. I don't even think about whether a car has airbags or not when I am driving it. Yes, I sometimes drive a car that does not have airbags. However, I can see how that theory might apply with something that you are aware you are using such as a helmet or protective equipment when motorcycling, bicycling or skiing.
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IMO no protective gear on 2 wheels means certain death when things go wrong so they might as well go full blast on one wheel in heavy traffic. Good gear often means the rider knows they're not immortal and will ride more sensibly to avoid a ride in the owie wagon.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
There have actually been some studies suggesting exactly that.

The theory is that humans are generally willing to accept a certain level of risk. So, say the risk level was 100 prior to airbags becoming standard, but that when airbags became available, the risk level went down 10 points. People then started driving 10 points more dangerously, because 100 is risk level that is generally acceptable while driving.
Click to expand...

Same goes for antiskid brakes (ABS). We used to have to feel the road using the steering and brakes and drive sensibly for the conditions. Now some drivers rely on the ABS to keep them out of trouble, and eventually the road gets bad enough that the ABS can't save them and they end up on their heads in the ditch while grandpa rumbles safely past in his ancient Buick. Here in Alberta we regularly see modern cars and especially SUVs in the ditch when the highway is slick. Some folks don't understand that four wheel drive doesn't do much for stopping or steering on the ice; it might get you out of the snow or mud but that's about it. 4WD will take you into the rhubarb as quickly as 2WD if you don't know how to drive.

I think all the modern doodads have dumbed us down, and it shows in young flight students who have to learn to manage mixture and carb heat and non-ABS brakes. Much of it is difficult for them to acquire because they have no frame of reference. In their cars they get in, turn the key, push the pedals and point the vehicle where they want to go. The computers look after the ignition and fuel and shifting and brakes, and now navigation, too. I get a laugh every time one of them rides with me in my '51 International pickup, with its three-on-the-tree shifting. Going from first to second they'll ask, "What did you just do?"

Dan
 
4WD usually helps because the tires on 4wd vehicles have more aggressive tread than the typical car's All Season Radial.

Many of the technical advances shield the user from various physical forces acting on the car/plane/boat, but I'll take seat belts, air bags, ABS, and radial tires anyday as a daily commuter over so many of the rattling, rusting death traps we were subjected to in the 60s and 70s.

It's sorta like oldies music -- now it all sounds "so much better" because we only hear the cream of the era that survived. We forget how much unadulterated crap we put up with at the time.
 
Dan Thomas said:
I get a laugh every time one of them rides with me in my '51 International pickup, with its three-on-the-tree shifting. Going from first to second they'll ask, "What did you just do?"

Dan
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Ya know, the AMC Gremlin had 3 on the tree too. Jes' sayin.....:ihih:
 
Dan Thomas said:
Same goes for antiskid brakes (ABS). We used to have to feel the road using the steering and brakes and drive sensibly for the conditions. Now some drivers rely on the ABS to keep them out of trouble, and eventually the road gets bad enough that the ABS can't save them and they end up on their heads in the ditch while grandpa rumbles safely past in his ancient Buick. Here in Alberta we regularly see modern cars and especially SUVs in the ditch when the highway is slick. Some folks don't understand that four wheel drive doesn't do much for stopping or steering on the ice; it might get you out of the snow or mud but that's about it. 4WD will take you into the rhubarb as quickly as 2WD if you don't know how to drive.
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I agree that knowing how to drive is very important and of course no technology can save you if you drive irresponsibly. But if you do know how to drive, ABS is invaluable. You can't rely on it to save you from making silly mistakes, but you can certainly rely on it being able to get you to a stop more quickly than you ever could yourself. Modern ABS doesn't get overwhelmed anymore. They fixed that two decades ago....

That said, unfortunately ABS still isn't standard in every new car (neither are passenger airbags). As of 4 years ago, not even new base Toyotas had ABS. It's a good idea to figure out if the car has ABS if you drive lots of rental cars....
 
sba55 said:
I agree that knowing how to drive is very important and of course no technology can save you if you drive irresponsibly. But if you do know how to drive, ABS is invaluable. You can't rely on it to save you from making silly mistakes, but you can certainly rely on it being able to get you to a stop more quickly than you ever could yourself. Modern ABS doesn't get overwhelmed anymore. They fixed that two decades ago....

That said, unfortunately ABS still isn't standard in every new car (neither are passenger airbags). As of 4 years ago, not even new base Toyotas had ABS. It's a good idea to figure out if the car has ABS if you drive lots of rental cars....
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ABS is great. People have no idea how to use it. I first had it in a 93 Accord, and figured I'd go test it on a slippery day, since I had no idea how it would work. Man - I was surprised by the pedal pulsing. I made sure my wife did the same thing. She had the same reaction as I did: if she hadn't known what to expect, she would have thought something was wrong with the brakes. That's the wrong thing to think in an emergency!!
 
Everskyward said:
The speed limit was lowered to 55 in the 1970s during the gas shortages. I don't think it had anything to do with safety. At some point I think the restriction was lifted and the states gradually increased the speed limits again.
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Originally, yes, the pretext for lowering the speed limit was to force the nation to save gas. Then the safety advocates got into the picture and pushed an agenda of lower speed limits for safety (remember when the Feds wanted speedometers to be limited to 85 with "highlighting" of 55?).

This was enforced by the Federal government through withholding highway funds. The Federal law was later changed to permit higher speeds on certain roads - which was adopted fairly quickly by more rural states (there was a political element, but I don't want to send this to Spin Zone).

In the mid-90's the Federal limits were repealed entirely.

IIRC, 55 never really did contribute much to safety and IIHS and NHTSA came around to that viewpoint themselves.
 
dmccormack said:
IIRC, for a while all speedometers were so labelled...?
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Yup. Federal regulation. Couldn't go higher than 85. I believe that reg was eliminated during the Reagan administration.
 
dmccormack said:
4WD usually helps because the tires on 4wd vehicles have more aggressive tread than the typical car's All Season Radial.
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That's not the 4x4 helping, that's the tires helping.

My '82 XJ-S had some tires with a great tread pattern on them. Despite being a passenger car tire, they were pretty phenomenal in the snow. This is on a rear wheel drive sports car.

All that 4x4 does is helps get you going better and (in some cases) gives you extra wheels to pull yourself through something with. What it doesn't do is help you stop any better, and generally just makes you think you're more stable than you are, resulting in going too fast. I stick to 2wd unless I need the 4x4, and that gives me a better idea of how much (or how little) stability I really do (or don't) have.

flyersfan31 said:
ABS is great. People have no idea how to use it. I first had it in a 93 Accord, and figured I'd go test it on a slippery day, since I had no idea how it would work. Man - I was surprised by the pedal pulsing. I made sure my wife did the same thing. She had the same reaction as I did: if she hadn't known what to expect, she would have thought something was wrong with the brakes. That's the wrong thing to think in an emergency!!
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It's the execution of the ABS that's the problem, even in most modern cars. Your Honda may have worked great, but my GMC trucks (and my Ford truck) both have such awful executions of it that it does nothing but ensure I won't be able to stop once it kicks in. Believe me, I know how ABS works and how to use it. I've used it (and traction control, and all the other technological features that exist) in a number of different conditions. Most of the time, they prevent me from getting the vehicle to do what I want it to.

It's like most general statements. You make a generalization, it'll be right for a certain subset of the group, wrong for another subset of the group.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That's not the 4x4 helping, that's the tires helping.
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Mmmm k...

Thought that's what I said? :dunno:

The world's best "4x4" is an M1 Abrams, and once I slid one all the way down an icy tank trail. The only thing that kept us from sliding into a public road was a last-ditch dive into a snowbank.
 
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dmccormack said:
The world's best "4x4" is an M1 Abrams, and once I slid one all the way down an icy tank trail. The only thing that kept us from sliding into a public road was a last-distch dive into a snowbank.
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The way most folks around here drive their silly Yukon Denalis, I think they'd be shocked to hear that story. "Hey, I don't need to worry -- I have 4 wheel drive.":idea:
 
flyersfan31 said:
ABS is great. People have no idea how to use it. I first had it in a 93 Accord, and figured I'd go test it on a slippery day, since I had no idea how it would work. Man - I was surprised by the pedal pulsing. I made sure my wife did the same thing. She had the same reaction as I did: if she hadn't known what to expect, she would have thought something was wrong with the brakes. That's the wrong thing to think in an emergency!!
Click to expand...

Ah, another car safety thread!

Here's my view. Not enough teenagers get proper training to drive (and those bad habits just continue to carry over since we don't require any type of refresher), and not enough people overall can drive the tank they decided to buy for safety (or park for that matter).

So, I suggest a system kinda like ours. Require everyone to go through a drivers education course before testing. You get licensed for compact or sedan, and can get it increased to truck and SUV after passing a test designed to make sure you're aware of certain factors (you ride higher than smaller traffic so you need to know how to keep an eye on all of your blind spots, rollover risks, etc).

It won't solve a lot of things, but I think it'd help.
 
wbarnhill said:
Ah, another car safety thread!

Here's my view. Not enough teenagers get proper training to drive (and those bad habits just continue to carry over since we don't require any type of refresher), and not enough people overall can drive the tank they decided to buy for safety (or park for that matter).

So, I suggest a system kinda like ours. Require everyone to go through a drivers education course before testing. You get licensed for compact or sedan, and can get it increased to truck and SUV after passing a test designed to make sure you're aware of certain factors (you ride higher than smaller traffic so you need to know how to keep an eye on all of your blind spots, rollover risks, etc).

It won't solve a lot of things, but I think it'd help.
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...or buy every kid a dirt bike and give them 10 acres to play on.

Does wonders....
 
wsuffa said:
The Federal law was later changed to permit higher speeds on certain roads - which was adopted fairly quickly by more rural states
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It would only make sense that the rural states have higher speed limits since there is less congestion. What I find interesting is that Colorado has lot of highways which go to 75 almost as soon as you leave the metropolitan area but you drive on the same road (I-70) in western Kansas and the speed limit is 70.
 
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