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Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

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Dave Taylor
My f.i.l. is thinking he needs to buy a Toyota, any learned comments out there to encourage or dissuade him?
Thanks
 
I have a Highlander Hybrid.

The problem with hybrids is that they are only better than gas in certain circumstances. The situations that negate the savings are short trips or long trips at constant highway speeds.

It's great for trips of more than 15 minutes at 45MPH in stop and go or up and down hills. Long flat 65MPH trips negate the advantage. Short trips don't work because the engine has to keep running to warm up the cat. converter.
 
Chip has one. Maybe he'll chime in. As I recall his wife loves it. I drove it once, it was fine. My 12-year-old son LOVED the techno display on the dash.
 
They are really cool, and make plenty of sense if your goal is to buy a car to make a statement.

But if he is buying as a money-saving venture, it does not add up. If you make a rational comparison of the Prius to other vehicles of similar content and utility, you'd have to have gasoline prices profoundly higher than those we have now and are likely to have in futuro, for there to be a payoff in fuel savings. In addition, of course, you are getting a vehicle of dramatically-higher complexity and, while Toyota is legendary for excellent build quality (I think you already know this), with complexity comes increased risk of failure.

Tell us: (1): What is his true mission; (2) how much does he want to spend; and (3) how much driving will he do?

For people who are determined to save fuel, the VW Jetta TDi (direct-injection diesel) is (IMHO) a better choice.

Everyone I know who has one (I know three), loves it, but they all bought the Prius because of the statement it made, not the money that they saved by so doing.
 
We have a small fleet of hybrid mini-SUV's at work here in addition to the large number of "regular" cars and trucks. They have proven to be very reliable and user friendly. But as was mentioned above to realize any efficiency you must be doing stop and go driving - there is no savings for highway driving. In addition, in cold temps the gasoline engine must run much more to heat the catalytic converter as well as passenger heat/defrost. I doubt we are saving either $ or the environment much by using them in this park, since it is cold much of the time and most of our driving is not "stop & go." But hey, it makes us look good :rolleyes:
 
alaskaflyer said:
But hey, it makes us look good :rolleyes:
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Unfortunately, that's a HUGE marketing gimmick behind these types of hybrid models. They really don't have many improvements over their gasoline only cousins EXCEPT in very limited conditions (stop/go type driving under certain speeds).

And no one talks about the battery disposal or the additional maintenance. Remember, with any hybrid, you're maintaining TWO power systems, not one.

Personally, I think you're better off with a small diesel car running biodiesel or a "frybrid" type fuel. Better mileage, less maintenance, and less overall environmental impact.
 
Wahts fil?

Don't get in a wreck in a hybrid till first responders figger out how to cut yoiu out without gettin juiced up.

Merf
 
Brian Austin said:
Personally, I think you're better off with a small diesel car running biodiesel or a "frybrid" type fuel. Better mileage, less maintenance, and less overall environmental impact.
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My wife has a 4000lb turbo diesel, and it is great on fuel. She consistantly gets 27 city, and 34-37 highway depending on speeds and airconditioner use.
 
Brian Austin said:
Unfortunately, that's a HUGE marketing gimmick behind these types of hybrid models. They really don't have many improvements over their gasoline only cousins EXCEPT in very limited conditions (stop/go type driving under certain speeds).

And no one talks about the battery disposal or the additional maintenance. Remember, with any hybrid, you're maintaining TWO power systems, not one.

Personally, I think you're better off with a small diesel car running biodiesel or a "frybrid" type fuel. Better mileage, less maintenance, and less overall environmental impact.
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I'm seeing a consistent MPG performance higher than the non hybrid highlander with my hybrid version.

I haven't seen anything in the maintenance plans suggesting that any special extra maintenance is required, and the oil changes are less often (5000 instead of 3000).

I'm pretty happy with having gone hybrid.
 
Like Ken said, my wife owns a Prius and, if you don't mind driving a suitcase, it's a great car. We haven't experienced having to buy new batteries yet so that's an unknown. But the 50 MPG is hard to beat.

I hated it when we bought it and pretty much refused to drive it. Compared to the vehicles she had been driving it looked like a disposable care. But then I took it on a road trip and began to appreciate it a lot more. It's a good driving little car with plenty of torque.

I feel like I need to put a paper bag over my head when I'm in it, and my wife would probably agree, but we really do like the car.
 
Greebo said:
I'm seeing a consistent MPG performance higher than the non hybrid highlander with my hybrid version.
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According to http://www.toyota.com/highlander/specs.html, your hybrid actually gets worse gas mileage on the highway than the 4cyl model (27 est vs 28 est for the gas-only). No contest on the city side, though...which is what I said.

I haven't seen anything in the maintenance plans suggesting that any special extra maintenance is required, and the oil changes are less often (5000 instead of 3000).
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All Toyotas have gone to 5000 mile oil changes. Our new 4Runner (V8 Limited :D) says the same thing. That's not hybrid specific.

I'm pretty happy with having gone hybrid.
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That's really all that counts.
 
SCCutler said:
They are really cool, and make plenty of sense if your goal is to buy a car to make a statement.

But if he is buying as a money-saving venture, it does not add up.
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You know, there is a third option. I would buy one if I could afford it, even if nobody else could tell it was a hybrid. You see, I actually care very deeply about my carbon emissions. I believe that it's my ethical duty to reduce those emissions as much as I reasonably can, even if it costs me money. It has nothing to do with image.

I've rented a Prius and really liked it. I certainly do the type of driving where it would make a large difference (I commute to work on the motorway, but it usually gets thick enough with traffic that it becomes stop and go).

I'm also in favor of "voting with my wallet" and supporting companies and technologies that make a difference, even if they're more expensive at the moment. I hope that enough such votes will raise production levels and bring down costs, as well as stimulating others to enter that market. So I suppose that in that sense I'm trying to "make a statement" to the marketplace, but that's secondary to my goal of reducing my personal carbon emissions.

Chris
 
cwyckham said:
You see, I actually care very deeply about my carbon emissions. I believe that it's my ethical duty to reduce those emissions as much as I reasonably can, even if it costs me money.
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A worthy goal but that goes far beyond an automobile thing.

I suppose you've cut down or stopped flying then? Turn off your computer the moment you're done with it? Don't use a fireplace? Keep the house temps down to 68F? Use an electric mower if you have a lawn? No snowblower, of course.

I suppose the word "reasonable" is up for definition here. ;)
 
Brian Austin said:
A worthy goal but that goes far beyond an automobile thing.

I suppose you've cut down or stopped flying then? Turn off your computer the moment you're done with it? Don't use a fireplace? Keep the house temps down to 68F? Use an electric mower if you have a lawn? No snowblower, of course.

I suppose the word "reasonable" is up for definition here. ;)
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Well, I don't want to hijack this thread or get it pushed into spin zone, but yes, I try to cut down in all aspects of my life, including most of what you mentioned. I also pay extra to get my electricity from renewable sources and have replaced my lightbulbs with low energy ones.

I think every individual needs to define for themselves what "reasonable" means. For me, driving a small car and paying extra for some things is reasonable. Giving up all flying is not. I do fly gliders, but I enjoy power flying as well. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing. I don't have to either own an SUV or a bicycle. A Prius is a reasonable compromise if you can afford it. I can't, so I drive a Nissan Pulsar instead. Maybe when I grow up I can afford a Prius.

Chris
 
cwyckham said:
...I'm also in favor of "voting with my wallet" and supporting companies and technologies that make a difference, even if they're more expensive at the moment. I hope that enough such votes will raise production levels and bring down costs, as well as stimulating others to enter that market. So I suppose that in that sense I'm trying to "make a statement" to the marketplace, but that's secondary to my goal of reducing my personal carbon emissions.

Chris
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You go, boy!

Due to the huge proliferation of batteries that must be replaced every few years I'll be looking for your post on what to do about all those used toxic lead-acid batteries, the growing problem of lead exposure from mining and manufacturing of lead acid batteries (don't feel too bad about the sulfuric acid though, much of that is a by-product of other industrial process such as making phosphorus fertilizer), the lack of (and increased disposal costs to use) hazardous materials landfills, how terrorists are controlling our African sources of germainium, irridium and other rare earths needed to manufacture sophisticated circuits, ...
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
My f.i.l. is thinking he needs to buy a Toyota, any learned comments out there to encourage or dissuade him?
Thanks
Click to expand...
I worked for Toyota for a year in the detail department, I've never heard of too many problems with them. The only disadvantage I noticed is one, they're not sports cars so there isnt much "get up and go," and two they are battery powered for the most part and you're going to have to replace that battery someday which can be very expensive. I've also heard some mechanics can't work on them because of the hybrid status and computer system. Other than that, they can compete a little bit with a good honda's gas milage. Toyotas are notorious for being well rounded cars but the deffinition of a "perfect" car is in the eyes of the owner. Just be carefull when you're out to buy a car, I worked with salesmen for a year and they can manipulate you into buying a banana peel that Tom cruise slipped on or something. There wasn't a hummer, a Mercedes, and a red Viper out back for nothing!
 
Dart said:
You go, boy!

Due to the huge proliferation of batteries that must be replaced every few years I'll be looking for your post on what to do about all those used toxic lead-acid batteries, the growing problem of lead exposure from mining and manufacturing of lead acid batteries (don't feel too bad about the sulfuric acid though, much of that is a by-product of other industrial process such as making phosphorus fertilizer), the lack of (and increased disposal costs to use) hazardous materials landfills, how terrorists are controlling our African sources of germainium, irridium and other rare earths needed to manufacture sophisticated circuits, ...
Click to expand...

Ah, you're an optimist, I see. All technology has an impact, it's all a matter of choosing which impact we wish to have.

I fear this is getting a bit too spin zonish, so I'll leave it there.
 
I haven't heard any major complaints on the parts end except for one body shop that ended up buying one. They forgot to check on special techniques that apply to hybrids before they started cutting and welding on the inner structure. It MAY have been repairable, but the owner of the car AND the owner of the shop weren't willing to invest the money necessary to find out.
 
We sre absolutely pleased with our 2007 Prius. It is my wife's car primarily. I don't tink it is that small, and I am a big guy.


Scott
 
My first question would be is it the fuel savings worth the price of the hybrid option. I heard the hybrid option was really pricey, true??
 
I have a Toyota Matrix. People keep asking if it's a hybrid (it is not); I guess it's funny-looking-enough to be one.

There are a bunch of Ford Escape hybrid SUV taxicabs in NYC now. That should be an acid test. Wonder how they're proving out.

-- Pilawt
 
Don Jones said:
My first question would be is it the fuel savings worth the price of the hybrid option. I heard the hybrid option was really pricey, true??
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I did a comparison between the Accord hybrid vs gas and the Civic hybrid vs gas, using MSRPs and EPA numbers for each. At 15,000 miles a year and gas at $3 a gallon, payback was 17 years for the Accord and 8 years for the Civic. At 20,000 miles a year, it was 13 and 6, respectively. This was based on gas cost only, no mx included as I had no basis on which to judge and it was just an intellectual exercise anyway.

To answer your question more specifically, the price premium was/is $5,800 on the Accord and $3,700 for the Civic, again based on MSRP.
 
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Pilawt said:
There are a bunch of Ford Escape hybrid SUV taxicabs in NYC now. That should be an acid test. Wonder how they're proving out.

-- Pilawt
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The Escape is nothing like the Prius. The Prius has an electric traction motor in addition to the gas engine, and with modifications can run like a plug-in hybrid (can be completely electric powered or run on the gas engine for longer trips). In my opinion plug-in hybrids are the way to go.

The mileage of both is quite a bit less than the diesel Jetta (mine is getting 46 mpg). I reduced my commuting expenses from over $120 a week to under $30 -- and that's with Diesel way above the price of regular. I still use my truck for fire runs and hauling.
 
tom. said:
The mileage of both is quite a bit less than the diesel Jetta (mine is getting 46 mpg). I reduced my commuting expenses from over $120 a week to under $30 -- and that's with Diesel way above the price of regular. I still use my truck for fire runs and hauling.
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I don't know. My wife's Prius is getting 50.5 combined.
 
gibbons said:
I don't know. My wife's Prius is getting 50.5 combined.
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my 2005 vw golf diesel does better than that, and can do the same all day on the highway. Also, if you're worried about environmental impact and/or end of life costs, it doesn't have several hundred pounds of lead batteries to dispose of or replace after 10 years. Heck it'll just be getting broke in after 10 years. My last one was running like a champ when the shock towers finally gave out at almost 400k miles.
 
JHW said:
my 2005 vw golf diesel does better than that, and can do the same all day on the highway. Also, if you're worried about environmental impact and/or end of life costs, it doesn't have several hundred pounds of lead batteries to dispose of or replace after 10 years. Heck it'll just be getting broke in after 10 years. My last one was running like a champ when the shock towers finally gave out at almost 400k miles.
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Oh, but it's not nearly as ATTRACTIVE as the Prius. :rofl:

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicle/
 
Tristar said:
I worked for Toyota for a year in the detail department, I've never heard of too many problems with them. The only disadvantage I noticed is one, they're not sports cars so there isnt much "get up and go,"
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Not true in the Highlander Hybrid. It has MORE horsepower than the non-hybrid version when you stomp on the accelerator - because it adds battery assist to the engine.

Of course, you get lousy mileage when you do that. But hey, I have to drive in NJ!
 
Dart said:
You go, boy!

Due to the huge proliferation of batteries that must be replaced every few years I'll be looking for your post on what to do about all those used toxic lead-acid batteries, the growing problem of lead exposure from mining and manufacturing of lead acid batteries (don't feel too bad about the sulfuric acid though, much of that is a by-product of other industrial process such as making phosphorus fertilizer), the lack of (and increased disposal costs to use) hazardous materials landfills, how terrorists are controlling our African sources of germainium, irridium and other rare earths needed to manufacture sophisticated circuits, ...
Click to expand...

Point of information - they are NiMH batteries. At least in Toyotas.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Don't you also have a Chevy Tahoe? Most of those loaded out are in the same price range.
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Guilty as charged. :redface:

I was trying to pick at JRitt for his "This is my idea of an economy car" comment. The idea of a $50K Benz as an ecomony car just struck me kinda funny.

I'd love to trade the Tahoe on something more economical but with current gas prices it's not worth anything to sell or trade. I'm still planning to buy a motorcycle (1200 GSA) to use as a commuter as soon as the one I want comes in.
 
The motorcycle has been a great alternative for me. I'm getting about 50 mpg out of my Suzuki Boulevard, and you can't forget the fun factor as well. :yes: I've put about 120 miles on the Dodge since Oct. and that was only because of snow and ice.
 
gibbons said:
I was trying to pick at JRitt for his "This is my idea of an economy car" comment. The idea of a $50K Benz as an ecomony car just struck me kinda funny.
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Yes, but it shows that one can have a quite speedy, luxurious, well built road tank and still get 27-37mpg.

I'd love to trade the Tahoe on something more economical but with current gas prices it's not worth anything to sell or trade.
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I keep my F-150 Supercrew (13mpg city) for the same reason, but I only use it when I need a truck.

I'm still planning to buy a motorcycle (1200 GSA) to use as a commuter as soon as the one I want comes in.
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Let me know when you do. You should travel out this way, we'll go riding in the Smokies (Deals Gap, Cherohala Parkway, etc.
 
Do you have to occasionally plug the hybrid into an electrical outlet at home, or are the batteries fully sustained by the gas engine?

If you have to plug in, what is the cost of electricity to bring the batteries back up to 100%?

I know I've said it here before, but I really am going to pursue the waste vegetable oil/biodiesel cooker for my Dodge Cummins truck. Current research shows it costs about 75¢ per gallon to make, if the waste oil is free and not including cost of equipment. I believe the emissions are considerably less harmful as well, but have not specifically researched that.
 
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