[NA]Outdoor electrical outlets for home[NA]

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Dave Taylor
I need to replace a half dozen, as part of an outdoor spruce-up.

I have never liked the ones I had; we seem to get enough weather to overwhelm them so they get water in them and trip the GFCI and cannot be reset when I need power.

Also I need something that is easier to access; these ones have a cover that flips up so you have to get on your head to see the receptacle.

Suggestions?


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Are you protecting the outlets with in-use covers?
 
My builder installed a few of the GFCI covers that have the clear plastic housing. Not as aesthetically pleasing as the slim flip-up covers, but you can easily see the outlet when opened or closed and you can leave cords plugged in and close the lid if you have the need to (xmas lights/timers/exterior lighting/etc.)

upload_2020-10-21_10-46-27.jpeg
 
SoonerAviator said:
My builder installed a few of the GFCI covers that have the clear plastic housing. Not as aesthetically pleasing as the slim flip-up covers, but you can easily see the outlet when opened or closed and you can leave cords plugged in and close the lid if you have the need to (xmas lights/timers/exterior lighting/etc.)
Click to expand...
I have the same, even on the side of the house that gets enough weather to cause an aluminium powder coated box to corrode the weatherproofing is nearly perfect. (Now I just need to figure out how to get a better box.)
 
Most of the ""in-use" covers have the option of opening up or to the side. (Break parts off of the cover to choose, so it's a one time choice.)

GFCI are quite sensitive intentionally. I've been told you can stand barefoot in a puddle on concrete and grab the hot wire and they'll kick before you can feel the shock. (I've never felt the need to test that one!) It's can be as little as 6ma difference between hot & neutral current to kick. Even a little condensate can cause that much leakage.

As far as I know, there's really no way to have outside receptacles protected by GFCI (which you do really want) that don't kick after rain or with high humidity.
 
jsstevens said:
As far as I know, there's really no way to have outside receptacles protected by GFCI (which you do really want) that don't kick after rain or with high humidity.
Click to expand...

With the clear plastic covers(and nothing plugged in, and none of the things broken out) I've never had a false trip. We only get 70 inches of rain a year with an average humidity of 95%
 
I'm also one that hasn't had rain trip any of the 5 outside outlets (all protected by GFCI and in-use covers).

Btw - note that GFCI outlets don't last forever. If your GFCI outlets are more than 15 years old, you might want to inspect them... (this information is from a Master Electrician whom I trust completely wrt all things electrical)
 
I assume where you are GFCI is required outdoors by code? All of my outdoor outlets are the grey box spring-loaded cover type and none of them are GFCI. The ones on my workshop are always in use running an electric fence, never had an issue. I suspect the GFCI outlets may be a little too sensitive.
 
I have a clear "bubble cover" on the back outlet, and a solid gray on the front. The one in the front used to have the flip up covers, and I ended up replace that outlet several times over the years. I'm not sure it was from water intrusion, but it does face south and would get cooked all day during the summer. Each time I replaced it, it always seemed really beat up from the heat. Since I added the gray "in use" cover, I think it's a little more protected. I rarely use it except when driving Christmas lights anyway. The one in the back is under a porch cover, more protected from the elements.
 
cowman said:
I assume where you are GFCI is required outdoors by code? All of my outdoor outlets are the grey box spring-loaded cover type and none of them are GFCI. The ones on my workshop are always in use running an electric fence, never had an issue. I suspect the GFCI outlets may be a little too sensitive.
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Just because the individual outlets are not GFCI doesn't mean they're not GFCI protected. A whole string (properly counted to meet code, of course) of outlets can be wired downstream of a GFCI outlet and be protected. In fact, that's typically how it's done because a GFCI outlet is much more expensive than a regular outlet and GFCI breakers are more expensive still. (Or were when I did this for a living.) In a typical house, you'll have one GFCI where ever the circuit starts and all outdoor and outlets over bathroom sinks will be on that same circuit. Also any over the floor level in a garage. Now all outlets in the kitchen are also supposed to be GFCI protected.

Makes for interesting trouble shooting if you don't know it. I got a call recently from a friend had bought a townhouse. He said the outlet in the bathroom had quit working but no breakers were tripped and the rest of the house was fine. I told him to check in the garage or outside for a GFCI that was kicked. He found it, reset it and voila problem solved.
 
jsstevens said:
Just because the individual outlets are not GFCI doesn't mean they're not GFCI protected. A whole string (properly counted to meet code, of course) of outlets can be wired downstream of a GFCI outlet and be protected. In fact, that's typically how it's done because a GFCI outlet is much more expensive than a regular outlet and GFCI breakers are more expensive still. (Or were when I did this for a living.) In a typical house, you'll have one GFCI where ever the circuit starts and all outdoor and outlets over bathroom sinks will be on that same circuit. Also any over the floor level in a garage. Now all outlets in the kitchen are also supposed to be GFCI protected.

Makes for interesting trouble shooting if you don't know it. I got a call recently from a friend had bought a townhouse. He said the outlet in the bathroom had quit working but no breakers were tripped and the rest of the house was fine. I told him to check in the garage or outside for a GFCI that was kicked. He found it, reset it and voila problem solved.
Click to expand...

Yeah I've seen those, I actually don't have any GFCI outlets anywhere in my current house though. My workshop doesn't have them either. I'm not opposed to the things mind you, just not motivated to tear out a bunch of outlets to add the feature.
 
jsstevens said:
Makes for interesting trouble shooting if you don't know it. I got a call recently from a friend had bought a townhouse. He said the outlet in the bathroom had quit working but no breakers were tripped and the rest of the house was fine. I told him to check in the garage or outside for a GFCI that was kicked. He found it, reset it and voila problem solved.
Click to expand...

Our master bath has the reset-GFCI inside the nearest closet.
 
Matthew said:
Our master bath has the reset-GFCI inside the nearest closet.
Click to expand...

Yeah, our kitchen has hidden outlet strips up under the cabinets. And a neat row of GFCI's on the adjacent garage wall.
 
jsstevens said:
As far as I know, there's really no way to have outside receptacles protected by GFCI (which you do really want) that don't kick after rain or with high humidity.
Click to expand...
Probably true with newer GFCI's. But our house has outlets on every outside wall. All are normal outlets but the outdoor circuits all have GFCI breakers in the panel that went in when the house was built 30 some years ago. All of the outlets have your standard (not in use) flip covers over each plug. We've had an extension cord running to our chicken coop to power the cameras year round and also a heat lamp and heater for the waterer in the winter. I don't think its ever tripped other than due to overload. The breakers trip when you push the test button, but so far knock on wood, we haven't really had much trouble with them tripping due to moisture.
 
I have GFCI on all bathroom, basement, garage (except door opener power), and outside outlets. About the only time they trip is if I have something plugged into an extension cord and laying on the ground outside. And sometimes my bandsaw trips one when I turn it on. But not very often. Tape around the extension cord connection will fix those that are a problem outside.
 
Regular (non-GFI) exterior outlet nearly burned the house down!

I came home one very humid day and there was a distinct smell of hot electric smoke. Smell it once and you will recognise it immediately! A breaker had popped and I ended up resetting it when I couldn't find the problem. It did not pop again. for a while...

I went all over the house checking outlets but couldn't find it. Because it was outside and I didn't look there! :oops: A few weeks later, again on a very humid day, I was doing some work in the garage where the breaker panel was, and I heard an itch- itch- itch inside the panel door. On inspection I could see the breaker slowly tripping! Again no identifiable problem in the house.

The next project was on the back terrace. Woah! I found a large streak of black soot on the wall right above the "weatherproof" outlet on the back terrace! A fire trying hard to start. Replaced the burned to a crisp outlet. Also inspected the panel circuit breaker and it too was toasted to a nice black shade. It too got replaced.

I was certainly lucky on this one. The moral of this story is 'don't turn on a popped breaker unless you know for sure why it popped', and inspect the breaker well, looking for hidden damage too. Since this was an older wood frame condo row house the fire could have taken out several units in addition to mine!

Second moral: 'retrofit your older exterior outlets or circuits with GFI capability.' Your insurance agent will thank you!

-Skip
 
I had to remove the GFI outlets from one circuit in the garage because it would trip every time my air compressor tried to kick on. Not the breaker mind you, the GFI outlet. So, I removed it and wired in a regular outlet and it always works like a charm. It had issues with my table saw as well. If I go to sell the house, I'll just swap it back in to meet code.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I had to remove the GFI outlets from one circuit in the garage because it would trip every time my air compressor tried to kick on. Not the breaker mind you, the GFI outlet. So, I removed it and wired in a regular outlet and it always works like a charm. It had issues with my table saw as well. If I go to sell the house, I'll just swap it back in to meet code.
Click to expand...
My garage has (had) 3 wired-together GFCIs.

I removed one from the circuit and replaced it with a standard outlet to prevent nuisance trips when I have a large load plugged into it. I had to swap out the other two since they were no longer daisy chained together (I replaced the middle outlet). So now, instead of 3 GFCIs, one on each sidewall and one at the rear of the garage, I have the two on the sides that are protected and the one in the center that is not.
 
Skip Miller said:
Regular (non-GFI) exterior outlet nearly burned the house down!

I came home one very humid day and there was a distinct smell of hot electric smoke. Smell it once and you will recognise it immediately! A breaker had popped and I ended up resetting it when I couldn't find the problem. It did not pop again. for a while...

I went all over the house checking outlets but couldn't find it. Because it was outside and I didn't look there! :oops: A few weeks later, again on a very humid day, I was doing some work in the garage where the breaker panel was, and I heard an itch- itch- itch inside the panel door. On inspection I could see the breaker slowly tripping! Again no identifiable problem in the house.

The next project was on the back terrace. Woah! I found a large streak of black soot on the wall right above the "weatherproof" outlet on the back terrace! A fire trying hard to start. Replaced the burned to a crisp outlet. Also inspected the panel circuit breaker and it too was toasted to a nice black shade. It too got replaced.

I was certainly lucky on this one. The moral of this story is 'don't turn on a popped breaker unless you know for sure why it popped', and inspect the breaker well, looking for hidden damage too. Since this was an older wood frame condo row house the fire could have taken out several units in addition to mine!

Second moral: 'retrofit your older exterior outlets or circuits with GFI capability.' Your insurance agent will thank you!

-Skip
Click to expand...

Check out the AFCI (Arc-fault) breakers at your local hardware store.

They will trip on an arcing short to neutral, which a GFCI won't necessarily detect. GFCI just makes sure that all the electrons going out through the power wire comes back through the neutral wire, and isn't leaking somewhere else (like through you to ground.)

I'm slowly switching out my breakers to AFCI and/or combination AFCI/GGCI to prevent this kind of failure in my older house.

https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/0e/0ed57100-d015-4fdf-86ae-5d32c3c70b13.pdf
 
Home Depot carries "Weather Resistant" GFCI outlets made by Leviton.
 
When I wired our house addition, all outlets in bedrooms had to be on AFCI. They sense RF "noise" (100KHz) caused by arcs that last longer than a few milliseconds (because making or breaking an electrical circuit will cause a brief arc at the contacts). They do not check for mismatches between current on hot & neutral like a GFCI. They are not protecting you from a shock like a GFCI does. I don't think replacing GFCI for outside or wet location protection is a good idea for that reason.

GFCIs are certainly sensitive to some things. One house I owned had the GFCI in the garage which also fed outside and bathroom receptacles. It was the only outlet in the garage and was above my workbench. I had a cordless screwdriver charger plugged into it. If I plugged in my normal drill motor, it would kick the GFCI when I let go of the trigger (so when the drill was stopping). Unplug the charger and it worked fine. I always figured the back EMF from the motor interacted with the transformer (which is also an inductor) on the charger to kick it.

My current house does not have issues with outside receptacles kicking the GFCI from rain. But my older house did. Your mileage may vary.

John
 
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On a single circuit, you only need a single GFCI outlet as long a they're wired correctly. If you have multiple, either someone was splurging or they’re wired wrong.
 
bflynn said:
On a single circuit, you only need a single GFCI outlet as long a they're wired correctly. If you have multiple, either someone was splurging or they’re wired wrong.
Click to expand...

Yes, but the correct/economical way of wiring is to have the GFCI as the first outlet in the branch. Any bright ideas on how to identify this with a minimum of effort? All I can think of is disconnecting each outlet until the power feed from the breaker panel is identified.
 
cowman said:
Yeah I've seen those, I actually don't have any GFCI outlets anywhere in my current house though. My workshop doesn't have them either. I'm not opposed to the things mind you, just not motivated to tear out a bunch of outlets to add the feature.
Click to expand...

Easier to replace the breaker with a GFCI breaker.
 
jsstevens said:
One house I owned had the GFCI in the garage which also fed outside and bathroom receptacles. It was the only outlet in the garage and was above my workbench. I had a cordless screwdriver charger plugged into it. If I plugged in my normal drill motor, it would kick the GFCI when I let go of the trigger (so when the drill was stopping). Unplug the charger and it worked fine. I always figured the back EMF from the motor interacted with the transformer (which is also an inductor) on the charger to kick it.
Click to expand...

This behavior is characteristic of nuisance tripping, which is what happens when you wire GFCIs in series. Most house circuits are wired in series, so if you see two, the odds are really high they're not installed right.
 
flyingbrit said:
Yes, but the correct/economical way of wiring is to have the GFCI as the first outlet in the branch. Any bright ideas on how to identify this with a minimum of effort? All I can think of is disconnecting each outlet until the power feed from the breaker panel is identified.
Click to expand...
1. Kill the circuit
2. Find all dead outlets/lights/appliances (check whole house).
3. Go to the one outlet that is physically closest to the breaker panel and disconnect all wires. Leave them exposed.
4. Power on the circuit. If all other outlets are still dead, you've found the 1st box. Take your multimeter or test light and identify which black/white combo is live and you're done.
5. If all other outlets were not dead, put the first outlet back together and go to the outlet that is next closest to the breaker panel, disconnect and check. Lather rinse repeat.

Whole process shouldn't take more than 20 minutes.
 
bflynn said:
This behavior is characteristic of nuisance tripping, which is what happens when you wire GFCIs in series. Most house circuits are wired in series, so if you see two, the odds are really high they're not installed right.
Click to expand...

There was only one at the beginning of the circuit. I've experienced similar tripping issues with a transformer plugged into the circuit and a motor (of some heft) starting and stopping.
 
If allowed by code, make the outside outlets all GFCI with the entire loop on a regular breaker. That way, if one kicks off due to water ingress, it doesn't shut of everything else on the circuit.

GFCI must have cost a million dollars at one point. In a prior house, I had one of those abortions with the entire basement, the garage and the outside plugs on one GFCI that was hidden in a basement closet. The christmas lights get wet --> garage freezer thaws out.
 
jsstevens said:
I admit, I've solved more than one electrical problem by starting with the idea: "How would I have wired this? I bet that wire goes from here to there and ... yep."
Click to expand...
I usually start with "what is the worst possible way to wire this" and then find out whatever they did is worse than that.

I'm still not sure why the dishwasher, 1 interior and 1 exterior outlet were the same circuit, and nowhere near each other.
 
weilke said:
If allowed by code, make the outside outlets all GFCI with the entire loop on a regular breaker. That way, if one kicks off due to water ingress, it doesn't shut of everything else on the circuit.

GFCI must have cost a million dollars at one point. In a prior house, I had one of those abortions with the entire basement, the garage and the outside plugs on one GFCI that was hidden in a basement closet. The christmas lights get wet --> garage freezer thaws out.
Click to expand...

When they were first introduced here in Florida a GFCI 20A breaker cost $35. A normal 20A SP breaker cost $5. Later (not to much later, but long enough we installed some of those breakers) they introduced the the GFCI receptacles (which protected all downstream) at ~$17. I never installed another GFCI breaker in a house. For comparison, a normal duplex receptacle cost $.29. So, yeah they were pricey. You are allowed 6 duplex receptacles on a 20A circuit (as long as there is nothing else on it). So yeah, we strung them all over the house where GFCI was required. But a designated receptacle for a freezer or refrigerator in a garage were exceptions and didn't have to be GFCI.
 
chartbundle said:
I usually start with "what is the worst possible way to wire this" and then find out whatever they did is worse than that.

I'm still not sure why the dishwasher, 1 interior and 1 exterior outlet were the same circuit, and nowhere near each other.
Click to expand...

They were forgotten. (Best guess).

Maybe I was the nightmare wirer, but wiring lots of circuits and switches (including 3-way and 4-way) with only 2 conductor and 3 conductor wire (aka Romex) while staying within the allowed wire fill on boxes, is a particular mind set. Commercial with conduit is very different because you can run more or less wires in a piece of pipe (within wire fill limits) and get what you need. At the time, I was pretty good at it-never failed an inspection and stayed within cost. But it made for some weird routings sometimes. The thing is, my current house was built in 1979 (about the middle of my time doing electrical work) and as we started to remodel I was able to know where darn near everything was wired from/to before we opened the walls. I remember...

Modern commercial is more like Romex because they use MX cable. 2 and 3 conductor prepackaged with metal jacket. It's sure easier than running EMT...
 
jsstevens said:
allowed wire fill on boxes
Click to expand...

I've found one of the most important skills doing my own electrical is knowing how to properly wield a reciprocating saw to remove the old boxes the electricians used all their allowable fill on and replacing them with bigger ones and doing the least damage to the wall. Today's modern dimmers and smart switches really need the space. I like the One-Box Arlington boxes with internal screws when they're big enough since I'm almost always next to a stud and don't need an old work box.
 
chartbundle said:
I've found one of the most important skills doing my own electrical is knowing how to properly wield a reciprocating saw to remove the old boxes the electricians used all their allowable fill on and replacing them with bigger ones and doing the least damage to the wall. Today's modern dimmers and smart switches really need the space. I like the One-Box Arlington boxes with internal screws when they're big enough since I'm almost always next to a stud and don't need an old work box.
Click to expand...

They make much bigger (and nicer) boxes today plus the rework boxes are very easy to install. I rarely need a reciprocating saw. Nail on boxes you can get at the nails with a pair of side cutters and pull them out. Bracket boxes have rivets in the back that can be drilled, then cut off the bracket after you pull the box out.

My dad started in the 1950's with soldered connections and all metal boxes. Reworked knob & tube (me too actually) and just about everything since. I accumulated a lot of tricks. (And tools, but that's just the fun part...)
 
jsstevens said:
So yeah, we strung them all over the house where GFCI was required. But a designated receptacle for a freezer or refrigerator in a garage were exceptions and didn't have to be GFCI.
Click to expand...

When I moved into the current house, I had the electrician re-wire the garage to give me a dedicated circuit for the freezer and keep the other circuits on the loop protected by a GFCI outlet.
 
chartbundle said:
I'm still not sure why the dishwasher, 1 interior and 1 exterior outlet were the same circuit, and nowhere near each other.
Click to expand...

I had a basement closet and the master bath on the 2nd floor on one circuit.

With builder homes, I think the thought process needs to be : 'What would be the absolutely cheapest way to achieve this?' and that is what you are going to find.
 
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