[NA] HVAC Question [NA]

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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So I turn my AC on because it was 81 degrees before it was 27 degrees before it went back to 80.
And I hear the buzzing out at the heat exchanger.

I am starting w/ the capacitor. Well I open it and see this setup:

_cap.jpg



The unit is a York: H3RC060S06A

When I look for parts, I see a different one that is a single Cap but called a 80/5 MFD 370 Volt Dual. These are 45MFD and 35UF and 440 Volts

_cap2.jpg


I didn't install these.
Do I get the 370 volt 80 MFD or should I replace with this same tandem wired "system"

Thoughts?
 
The last repair guy installed what he had on the truck and allowed him to clear from the service call within the time allocated by his employer.

It should be spelled out on the box what capacitors the unit requires. If it doesn't, find someone who has the maintenance manual from York that tells you the correct capacity and voltage.

There is a 'POA for air conditioning', but often the professionals on the forum will gang up on you if you register to just ask a single question like that. Its the 'all aircraft in the pattern please advise' of hvac forums.
 
The dual is what is OEM for that system. Two can be used when the dual unit isn't handy or too expensive (excuses!)
 
weilke said:
The last repair guy installed what he had on the truck.

It should be spelled out on the box what capacitors the unit requires. If it doesn't find someone who has the maintenance manual from York that tells you the correct capacity and voltage.
Click to expand...

The paper in the unit which is faded beyond readability literally has 1 sentence I can make out:
"Diagram shown with dual capacitors however" That's it.
 
How soon do you need it to work?

For less time and money than this repair you can call American Home Shield or Home Warranty of America and they'll fix you up for the premium + $70. And then the next failed unit will also be repaired.

No guys on the internet needed.
 
Ravioli said:
How soon do you need it to work?
For less time and money than this repair you can call American Home Shield or Home Warranty of America and they'll fix you up for the premium + $70. And then the next failed unit will also be repaired.
No guys on the internet needed.
Click to expand...

I used them forever then I gave up using them because I did the math.
This repair will cost me $25. They replaced one of my other units last year.
It was I think a $100 trip charge and $40 / month. It never added up in my favor.
The only thing I liked about them was I wasn't the one doing the work.

The first year I had this house it did fall in my favor though.
I had a microwave, 2 pool motors, garage door spring, ice maker, water heater, and dryer all fail within 3 months. They combined trip charges into 1 for the multiple fixes. Only thing I had to pay for was 50% of the water heater.

Plus this has a high probability I will be posting later about how to treat electrocution burns.
 
I changed the Capacitors in both my compressor (outside) and fan motor (inside) twice after they failed...

After 18 years, I replaced the entire HVAC system. Best $7,400.00 I ever spent!
 
And that was performed by a "professional"..... Get the model number of the unit, go online, find the wiring diagram and that should help you out. Go to an HVAC supplier, with the model number of the condenser unit and what you should replace it, buy the new parts and fix it.

All that said, are you sure that's the problem??? Check the contactor too and check all the connections. I have a Goodman that is almost 30 years old. It had spade connectors on the compressor that one by one arced themselves into smoke. I went home handy man to fix them, but every spring it fires right up, I've been on borrowed time for 15 years I figure.

Here is the contactor, check for continuity and burning. https://www.repairclinic.com/PartDetail/Contactor/S102425837700/2335705?modelNumber=H3RC060S06A
 
I should have read all your posts, I would wire it back up correctly, you need to find a wiring diagram.

Check the rest of the connections and the contactor, make sure the caps are the problem. Some of the better power meters can check capacitors for capacitance.
 
PaulS said:
Get the model number of the unit, go online, find the wiring diagram and that should help you out. Go to an HVAC supplier, with the model number of the condenser unit and what you should replace it, buy the new parts and fix it.
Click to expand...

That's what I did until the air handler rusted into pieces and the condenser fan kept popping the breaker. I was lucky; there is a HVAC supplier nearby!

I had a local guy replace the entire system with a top of the line system and he took a little over $3,000 off the price. The new system is lots more efficient than the old and I am good for another 20 years!
 
IK04 said:
That's what I did until the air handler rusted into pieces and the condenser fan kept popping the breaker. I was lucky; there is a HVAC supplier nearby!

I had a local guy replace the entire system with a top of the line system and he took a little over $3,000 off the price. The new system is lots more efficient than the old and I am good for another 20 years!
Click to expand...

Nice, I have another house that had a Lennox with a perpetual slow leak. Turns out the condenser had rusted. I got sick of having it topped up, so I put a Goodman up there. I had a guy do it, I told him I didn't want a system with a control board in it, he told me smart move, the thing works great, no more leaks.
 
So the 80/5 suggests it may have come with a single can that had an 80 for the compressor, and a 5 for the fan. Note that these are run capacitors. A start cap is only in circuit for a few seconds at start to give extra starting torque, and will burn up if pressed into continuous use as a run cap.

As others have stated, those two wired up like that just total up to an 80. You can find a single 80, or any two that total up to 80 wired in parallel. It won’t matter, other than possible issues when one fails before the other.

You might also find and replace the 5 for the fan while you are at it.
 
Just took a second look, and one of those is a 35/5

I would still go with a 80 and a separate 5, if you can find them.
 
Ravioli said:
How soon do you need it to work?

For less time and money than this repair you can call American Home Shield or Home Warranty of America and they'll fix you up for the premium + $70. And then the next failed unit will also be repaired.

No guys on the internet needed.
Click to expand...

Crooks.
 
Well I put in a 440 v 80/5.
Didn't fix the problem.

I did take the other capacitor to an electronic store and they tested them one was completely dead so I would have needed to replace that anyway.
 
I'm probably in call a specialist territory now. That was the only trick I have up my sleeve
 
The deciding factor for my system was the resistance on the compressor windings. Supposed to be 100,000 ohms or so. Mine was like 10,000. Not fixable...
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'm probably in call a specialist territory now. That was the only trick I have up my sleeve
Click to expand...
If the fan wasn’t turning, I would’ve spun it by hand to see if it would start. If it does, then it’s probably the capacitor. Then only replace the fan one.
I bought a meter that tests microfarads b/c I go through at least one capacitor a year. It costs $120 to have someone come do it. I can replace it myself for $25.
 
Cooter said:
If the fan wasn’t turning, I would’ve spun it by hand to see if it would start. If it does, then it’s probably the capacitor. Then only replace the fan one.
I bought a meter that tests microfarads b/c I go through at least one capacitor a year. It costs $120 to have someone come do it. I can replace it myself for $25.
Click to expand...

I replace the capacitor cuz mine's the same I usually go through one every year.after talking to the guy he said the capacitor was bad but it could be that something else in there Friday capacitor and I need to get whatever else that is looked at. It's definitely making a very loud sound when I turn it on. Generally when the capacitor is bad it makes the same sound but not as loud as I'm hearing it
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I replace the capacitor cuz mine's the same I usually go through one every year.after talking to the guy he said the capacitor was bad but it could be that something else in there Friday capacitor and I need to get whatever else that is looked at. It's definitely making a very loud sound when I turn it on. Generally when the capacitor is bad it makes the same sound but not as loud as I'm hearing it
Click to expand...
I recommend you go to HVAC school prior to attempting any further repairs. Or get a new A/C. Just my .01 cent, not worth too much.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I replace the capacitor cuz mine's the same I usually go through one every year.after talking to the guy he said the capacitor was bad but it could be that something else in there Friday capacitor and I need to get whatever else that is looked at. It's definitely making a very loud sound when I turn it on. Generally when the capacitor is bad it makes the same sound but not as loud as I'm hearing it
Click to expand...
What's taking out the capacitors? Don't recall every replacing one.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I replace the capacitor cuz mine's the same I usually go through one every year.after talking to the guy he said the capacitor was bad but it could be that something else in there Friday capacitor and I need to get whatever else that is looked at. It's definitely making a very loud sound when I turn it on. Generally when the capacitor is bad it makes the same sound but not as loud as I'm hearing it
Click to expand...

Contactor (relay) and connections, not difficult to check and save you heaps of cash. After that give up. Look for arcing and burning. Check the continuity through the contactor, bring it to the place that tested the caps if your not sure how to do it.
 
Couple things.

I put in the new cap and still symptoms. No movement, loud buzzing.
I believe the buzzing is just the compressor.

I went to spin the fan with a screw driver and it does not spin freely at all.
I turned the AC on and pushed the fan w/ a screw driver and it started spinning.

Question. Suppose something got up in there jammed the fan. I've had Bees build a hive in my wall, Fire ants build a massive mound in my pool heater,and mud dobbers, well they are everywhere. I had them all over the capacitor actually. At any rate if something kept that fan from spinning could that have had an effect on the cap that was dead? I am looking for a cause and effect. Wondering if the fan being unable to move could kill a cap.

I am going to pull the fan out and see if I can clean it / lube it and hope that does the trick.
 
Entertaining reading. Call a service guy, buy a warranty, go to school, and the best one, buy a new unit. What a hoot.
I would suggest you call a service guy. But..... here's a few tips and tid-bits first.......

These are dirt simple systems, but lacking a little training, they can baffle consumers, as well as lot of residential service Dimwits. Too many of them simply throw parts at a problem till something sticks, and then hand you their bill. Sound a bit familiar?

New capacitor product quality these days is a crap shoot. More crap than good. You are dealing with run capacitors. Heat shortens any caps life. There's a couple shade tree methods to attempt to determine if a run cap is good. If it's swelled, or leaking, prolly bad. You can set your meter to do a resistance check, and sometimes get a suggestion if it's good, but not always accurate. And you can potentially kill a good cap by shorting it with a screw driver to discharge before checking. Use a 20,000 ohm resistor to discharge, and a meter with a cap check feature.

Standard allowable deviation from factory mfd rating is plus or minus 6%. A higher voltage rating than factory is acceptable. Capacitors mfd is additive when wired in parallel. A dual cap is one which contains two caps in one can. Normally, in these units, the lower mfd is for the fan, and the higher for the comp.

A bad cap is only one component that might possibly cause your buzz. Something as simple as alcohol does it for me. Is your crankcase heater working? Is your....? Does your....?
I always get a kick out of what a guy will do, go thru, and spend, to keep himself cool. At least, this time, so far, nobody said it was prolly low on freon. Like I said....... What a hoot.
 
Art Rose said:
Entertaining reading. Call a service guy, buy a warranty, go to school, and the best one, buy a new unit. What a hoot.
I would suggest you call a service guy. But..... here's a few tips and tid-bits first.......

These are dirt simple systems, but lacking a little training, they can baffle consumers, as well as lot of residential service Dimwits. Too many of them simply throw parts at a problem till something sticks, and then hand you their bill. Sound a bit familiar?

New capacitor product quality these days is a crap shoot. More crap than good. You are dealing with run capacitors. Heat shortens any caps life. There's a couple shade tree methods to attempt to determine if a run cap is good. If it's swelled, or leaking, prolly bad. You can set your meter to do a resistance check, and sometimes get a suggestion if it's good, but not always accurate. And you can potentially kill a good cap by shorting it with a screw driver to discharge before checking. Use a 20,000 ohm resistor to discharge, and a meter with a cap check feature.

Standard allowable deviation from factory mfd rating is plus or minus 6%. A higher voltage rating than factory is acceptable. Capacitors mfd is additive when wired in parallel. A dual cap is one which contains two caps in one can. Normally, in these units, the lower mfd is for the fan, and the higher for the comp.

A bad cap is only one component that might possibly cause your buzz. Something as simple as alcohol does it for me. Is your crankcase heater working? Is your....? Does your....?
I always get a kick out of what a guy will do, go thru, and spend, to keep himself cool. At least, this time, so far, nobody said it was prolly low on freon. Like I said....... What a hoot.
Click to expand...


Yeah but.
I have lived here 8 years and probably replaced 4 capacitors and 1 fan motor in that time. That pattern dictates that I start with the $20 solution and try a couple things before calling a guy out.
If I clean out that fan and it gets me through the summer, I am having another winning season. 8 in a row it seams.

Last time I called a guy out he charged me $900 to drain the refrigerant because the last guy way over charged it.
NINE HUNDRED DOLLARS for an expert to fix the last expert's mistake.

I will take my chances with internet shade tree $20 solutions.
 
Depending on location, average accepted service life for a split in a commercial application is approx ten years. If you've needed to replace that many capacitors in that service period, I'd start to suspect the Amazon replacements you're buying, or an extreme service situation. (i.e. component overheating) If you've replaced the motor, did it get a new and correctly sized cap? Bound bearings can be caused by excessive heat, which, among other reasons, can be caused by an improperly sized cap.

Granted, even today, after many states have implemented verifiable registering and licensing requirements, the residential service industry lacks some of the competence and integrity you might expect. I have little respect for most of those guys. But, I suspect you're probably trying to keep an old R-22 system running, and that $900 bill was in part due to the EPA's banning of HCFC refrigerants. Not the service techs fault.

Any further discussion on this refrigerant subject will degrade into a political discussion, and we'll be chastised or banned from this discussion here. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how CFC rich northern hemisphere air migrates to the south pole to cause massive holes in the ozone layer. Over twenty years, and I've still not heard a valid explanation.
 
Art Rose said:
These are dirt simple systems, but lacking a little training, they can baffle consumers, as well as lot of residential service Dimwits.
Click to expand...

No kidding! When my system first started failing, I did quite a bit of research into the repair of these ancient designs...

Luckily, there is a Baker Distributing Company store nearby and they had everything needed to completely repair my system, including the control board!

Further research revealed that all these parts are shared by ten or so manufacturers and they are all interchangeable among all the big brands, just like refrigerators and stoves...

What's more, they have a wiring diagram inside the unit, so there is only a small difference here and there with regard to what part is bad and it makes troubleshooting super easy.

My new system is controlled by a board that fits inside the "thermostat" in the hallway and it has a Wi-Fi connection to the internet.

Unless you have a background in electrical and mechanical concepts, none of this should be attempted by those "baffled consumers..."
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Yeah but.
I have lived here 8 years and probably replaced 4 capacitors and 1 fan motor in that time. That pattern dictates that I start with the $20 solution and try a couple things before calling a guy out.
If I clean out that fan and it gets me through the summer, I am having another winning season. 8 in a row it seams.

Last time I called a guy out he charged me $900 to drain the refrigerant because the last guy way over charged it.
NINE HUNDRED DOLLARS for an expert to fix the last expert's mistake.

I will take my chances with internet shade tree $20 solutions.
Click to expand...

Ok, so it sounds like the compressor has been running all along, but the fan has not. They both should run together. Generally an easy way to tell if the compressor is running is to feel the pipes coming out of the unit. The larger pipe should be cooler and the smaller pipe warmer (sometimes hot, be careful). You should be able to hear coolant flowing in pipes ( near the evaporator is easiest to hear this and same deal with the pipes, big one cooler, smaller one warmer.)

It sounds like the fan doesn't have it's cap hooked up and hasn't had it hooked up for a while. I would focus on that, getting the 5 side of the cap hooked up if it isn't already. There should be wiring diagram inside, use that to figure out the hookups. If you can't read it use the googles....
 
We had a fan motor seize that presented most of 6PC's symptoms. The system would kick on for a minute or two, but without the fan running, it had no real cooling capacity and would shut off by itself. The ultimate diagnosis was to pull the guard from the fan and spin the blades by hand. I could move 'em, but it took much more effort than it should have.
 
I shot some WD-40 up in there and spend it by hand a few times. Now it's working like a charm
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I shot some WD-40 up in there and spend it by hand a few times. Now it's working like a charm
Click to expand...

WD 40 is a better parts cleaner than lubricant. And usually those fan motors have lifetime oil impregnated bearings. I suggest that if the system is now cooling with that fan spinning, go look up any part numbers on that motor and order a new one. This one may only have hours or weeks left.
 
If your sealed fan locked up. I’d replace it.

WD-40 and spinning it with your hand? lol. That’s totally going to fail on the hottest day of the year when you are out of town and the wife will be ****ed.
 
If there is no capacitor in the circuit to the fan, it will eventually stop again.
 
Art Rose said:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how CFC rich northern hemisphere air migrates to the south pole to cause massive holes in the ozone layer. Over twenty years, and I've still not heard a valid explanation.
Click to expand...

Pfft. Simple. In our Chemtrail formulae, there is usually an ionic compound that binds to free Cl- and another that encapsulates HCl and most CFCs. There is much more CT activity in the northern hemisphere. Therefore, the southern hemisphere suffers the consequences of not getting on board with the CT mission. This is a very political topic, and controversial.

I will 2nd the @jesse comment about the WD-40. My wife was ecstatic to tell me the failings of my repairs. It took about 45 minutes of active listening to get to the repair. See my post in the thread about hangar tools. That stinky couch came in handy!
 
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