[NA] Door to door roof replacement sales

CJones

CJones

Final Approach
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School me on the door-to-door roof sales schtick. We had a guy come by a few years ago, inspect the roof and claim we had enough 'damage' to warrant a replacement (via insurance, of course). We ended up not going through with it.

Got another guy (different company) on the roof right now doing a 'free' inspection. My parents had this deal come through a few years ago and they legitimately got a whole free roof out of it b/c the shingles were known to be bad.

How legitimate are these folks and how 'legal' is it? What are the side effects on insurance premiums going forward? We're sitting under a 25+ y/o roof right now and wouldn't mind getting it replaced if I knew it wouldn't bite me later.

Really interested in actual experience.
 
don't know of any legit companies doing the door-to-door thing. Such scams have existed for years (we'll be in your area and will inspect your roof [or whatever])... often targeting elderly homeowners.

advise caution
 
Had someone knock on my door yesterday. Big issue in NC with this fraud. Have your insurance company come out if you think you have a damage.
 
I see in the news that insurance companies are pulling out of Florida due to this issue.

Life, it’s always something.
 
The guy just left. I let him make his standard sales pitch, but he didn't push hard when I said 'No thanks.' My guess is he was expecting a different age group when he knocked on the door - why else would you knock on the door mid-day on a weekday?

At least it was good to see the pics that he took just so I know what things look like up there without having to get up there myself.
 
(in Florida) A few years ago, I needed to replace my roof. I called a reputable company and we agreed to a price. A few days later, one of those door-to-door companies came by and told me my roof was shot. I said "yes, it's 23 years old". (FYI, anything over 20 years in central florida is past TBO.) He said he could get the insurance company to pay it all. I asked him "isn't that fraud, because it was past it's life?", His answer was "no, that is what insurance is for."
That is *not* what insurance is for. All the houses on my street were about the same 20+ years old. Within the next month, about 1/4th had new roofs.
It's a scam that has now forced many insurers in Florida to stop insuring homes.
I have since sold the house and moved into a condo and am not affected by this scam, mostly....
The church I am a deacon for has to have it's roof inspected every 2 years before the insurance company will renew. Due to this same scam.

(edit) FYI, I paid for my roof. I did not use the scammer.
 
what exactly is the scam? other than these guys ringing my doorbell quite often, and for that they are a bunch of scambags but I'm not sure what the actual scam is.
 
The scam is that they file against the insurance company to pay claiming 'hail damage in the past'. Even on roofs that are just worn out. It is what has driven up insurance rates in Florida over the past. The whole pitch is the "I can get you a free roof."
 
Your state insurance commissioner/regulator is the best place to go for information on insurance scams related to roof claims.
 
Another aspect of the scam is to claim that the roof is bad bad bad and is deperately in need of replacement... regardless of its actual condition... and if they get the work, they do a lousy job and are never heard from again...
 
thito01 said:
The scam is that they file against the insurance company to pay claiming 'hail damage in the past'. Even on roofs that are just worn out. It is what has driven up insurance rates in Florida over the past. The whole pitch is the "I can get you a free roof."
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I don't quite understand how the insurance companies allow them selves to get taken on these scams. For anything else, you have fight the insurance company and their inspectors and adjusters to pay out, how can some roofing scam artist pull a fast one?
 
A couple months ago, we had some hail fall during a thunderstorm here in Florida. Two days later, there were three gypsy roofing companies roaming our airpark knocking on doors. The first salesman told me that they had downloaded a forensic weather analysis that showed damaging hail at our location. The second one said that NOAA weather data reported the same. “Forensic weather analysis”? They really ought to pick smarter salesmen to go talk to pilots.

We had 1/16” nuggets at best, and it only fell for about 20 seconds. There was zero hail big enough to cause damage within at least 20 miles of us.

They didn’t like being called scammers, storm chasers and gypsies, nor did he take in the spirit of goodwill and friendly assistance the suggestion that he vacate our little community.
 
We just did a partial replacement at our church in Orlando, about $24k, and it took them 5 months to get the materials and to get it scheduled. This is the same roofer that we have used for 30+ years. (The partial was because we had an addition that is not on the same cycle as the rest of the buildings.) Yes, they are busy.
 
60 Minutes did a segment on this a while back - a lot of ripped off homeowners.
 
Q: If somebody knocked on your door and said give me twenty-five thousand dollars, would you do it?
 
There is a way to keep folks from hanging around when you'd rather they didn't. Most of us good old country boys have learned this lesson ourselves:

 
I live in Oklahoma City. After EVERY storm these guys come out. If you let them on your roof, they are guaranteed to find enough "problems" that you'll "have" to get a new roof. It's almost completely a scam.

Now, yes, actual need for roof replacements here is more common than in other areas. But the way these guys tell it, I need a new roof about every year.

A roof that lasts 25 years? Ha, it's more like a 5 to 10 year roof around here!
 
People who show up at your door that aren't your friends or relatives, aren't your friends. I learned that before I was a teenager. I can't come up with a scenario where I'd listen to a peddler or criminal that comes up to my door.
 
Just replaced a roof after a large hailstorm…chasers we call them around here and within a week I had at least ten hit the door telling me we had damage. 20 year old roof at the end of its service life. I actually used one of them from a company that was local, reputable and the only one that did not offer to refund my deductible (Fraud)…every other company received a complaint submitted to the AG’s office and State Board of Insurance…my second career was Property insurance and without pricks like me we may suffer Florida issues…Premium roofing products seem to be available but cheaper lighter shingles are problematic.
 
Door-to-door guy vs reputable, long-time, local company:

Which is more likely to be around & helpful in the event of warranty claim?
 
We got a guy ringing out our doorbell a couple days ago. We had a severe storm blast through on Sunday morning. “I can do a free inspection!”
 
RussR said:
…If you let them on your roof…
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Our (the property insurance arm of the company I work for) adjusters use quadcopters with 4K cameras to survey the roof. Not perfect, but adjuster injury claims along with challenges/escalations to the initial offer have dropped.

As @Warlock mentioned, lots of fraud in the space and many insurers know who’s committing it, both on the contractor side and on the policy holder side.

ProTip: if you haven’t made a claim before you get the estimate, you’re likely to get a closer look by your insurer’s auditors.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Door-to-door guy vs reputable, long-time, local company:

Which is more likely to be around & helpful in the event of warranty claim?
Click to expand...
Last roof I had done was by a reputable, long-time, local company. They bailed on the rest of the repairs when the insurance company wouldn’t give them an extra 10% to make sure the people working on the back of the house didn’t get in the way of the people working on the front. But their sub already had shingles stored on my roof (prior to signing the contract, btw) so they apparently felt like they had to do that.

not that I’d use a door-to-door guy, but local, reputable, long-time doesn’t really mean squat, either.
 
These guys gravitate to storm damage areas. Usually what is following the sales guy is a crew of Hispanic roofers. Today the company is Tom’s roofing, tomorrow it is Bill’s roofing. Effectively there is no guarantee because the company will no longer exist in a short period and if they do you will never get your warranty claim addressed.

My neighbor had a major roof leak after a roof gypsy job.
 
Not sure where the insurance fraud part is, unless they're doing something shady to get a roof to qualify. If the roof had damage due to wind/hail, it doesn't matter whether it was 5yrs old or 25yrs old, it's up to your insurance company to approve or deny the claim. Nothing too shady about that. I would certainly get a second opinion rather than using some random company who showed up after a storm though.
 
Since we’re on the topic, here’s some PSA material from the National Insurance Crime Board.

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https://www.nicb.org/ContractorFraudWeek
 
CJones said:
…
My parents had this deal come through a few years ago and they legitimately got a whole free roof out of it b/c the shingles were known to be bad.
Click to expand...
A defective product (bad shingle) can, depending on policy language can be a covered loss. Usually the deductible still has to be paid.

If a roofer “reimburses” you the deductible, that defrauds the insurer in a variety of ways. Usually a scam will involve an estimate with premium materials costs and installation of sub-premium material. The delta is “refunded” by the contractor to the homeowner.
 
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SoonerAviator said:
Not sure where the insurance fraud part is, unless they're doing something shady to get a roof to qualify. If the roof had damage due to wind/hail, it doesn't matter whether it was 5yrs old or 25yrs old, it's up to your insurance company to approve or deny the claim. Nothing too shady about that. I would certainly get a second opinion rather than using some random company who showed up after a storm though.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that you could send most of these guys up onto a brand-new roof and they'd "find" enough "problems" that it needs to be replaced again.

And they also do this tricky accounting thing to cover your deductible. Since a lot of roof damage deductibles are based around a percentage of the house's insured value (like 2% or so), that can easily be a $5000 deductible. So the roofer will just add $5000 onto their estimate so you don't pay anything. I forget how the mechanics of the accounting here actually works, but it's definitely insurance fraud.
 
RussR said:
I'm pretty sure that you could send most of these guys up onto a brand-new roof and they'd "find" enough "problems" that it needs to be replaced again.

And they also do this tricky accounting thing to cover your deductible. Since a lot of roof damage deductibles are based around a percentage of the house's insured value (like 2% or so), that can easily be a $5000 deductible. So the roofer will just add $5000 onto their estimate so you don't pay anything. I forget how the mechanics of the accounting here actually works, but it's definitely insurance fraud.
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That's the issue though, if there are enough problems that they can sell to an insurance adjuster occurred in a single event, the insurance company has to do what they are paid for. The adjuster has the ability to deny the claim or send out their own inspectors. Nothing fraudulent unless the roofing company is out there with ball peen hammers and leaf blowers trying to tear up the roof.

The fraud part very well could be a "refund" of the deductible to the insured via pricing but that's a bit different than just roofing guys offering free inspections after a storm.
 
We had a guy that I went to high school get arrested a few months ago, for damaging a roof during his free inspection. Not accidental damage, the homeowner saw him ripping up shingles!! Of course he was fired, I think the company actually has a good reputation and didn’t know he was doing this!
I had to replace my barrel tile roof in Destin, insurance wouldn’t insure it, because it was 25 years old, it’s a 50 year roof! But, it’s fixed now!
 
Unless the person at my door selling something is a local student/athlete/Cub Scout doing a fundraiser, I’m not buying. If I need something, I likely know where to get it without being bothered at my home.
 
SoonerAviator said:
That's the issue though, if there are enough problems that they can sell to an insurance adjuster occurred in a single event, the insurance company has to do what they are paid for. The adjuster has the ability to deny the claim or send out their own inspectors. Nothing fraudulent unless the roofing company is out there with ball peen hammers and leaf blowers trying to tear up the roof.

The fraud part very well could be a "refund" of the deductible to the insured via pricing but that's a bit different than just roofing guys offering free inspections after a storm.
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Generally speaking if the estimate predates the claim, insurers will be applying extra scrutiny. In this version of the scam, homeowners are asked by the roofer to dispute the insurer’s decision.

I work for my insurer and have had this exact scenario in a house that was less than a year old. Estimator said “you need to file a claim before we can give you a copy of the estimate, but you see the on the paper in front of you and we can coach you how to dispute it if your insurer doesn’t approve it”.
 
TCABM said:
A defective product (bad shingle) can, depending on policy language can be a covered loss. Usually the deductible still has to be paid.

If a roofer “reimburses” you the deductible, that defrauds the insurer in a variety of ways. Usually a scam will involve an estimate with premium materials costs and installation of sub-premium material. The delta is “refunded” by the contractor to the homeowner.
Click to expand...

I think for my parents' case, the shingle manufacturer actually lost a class action suit, so the shingles were legitimately 'bad'. As far as I know, they didn't even run it through home owners insurance at all.
 
Thanks for the intel, folks. I agree - my spidey senses were tingling, but wanted validation that they were correct. Obviously I have yet to see a "Oh yeah.. We got a great new roof and it was no problem at all with insurance!", which tells me it's an overwhelming no-go.

They did find damage, but what's funny is that it was different damage than the chucklehead that did the inspection a few years ago. The first guy found 'hail damage'. This guy found 'wind damage' (creased shingles). Overall - it ain't leaking, so I've got time for a 'real' storm to come through and do some legitimate damage.
 
CJones said:
I think for my parents' case, the shingle manufacturer actually lost a class action suit, so the shingles were legitimately 'bad'. As far as I know, they didn't even run it through home owners insurance at all.
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That would be CertainTeed and no, insurance should not have been involved.
 
RussR said:
I'm pretty sure that you could send most of these guys up onto a brand-new roof and they'd "find" enough "problems" that it needs to be replaced again.

And they also do this tricky accounting thing to cover your deductible. Since a lot of roof damage deductibles are based around a percentage of the house's insured value (like 2% or so), that can easily be a $5000 deductible. So the roofer will just add $5000 onto their estimate so you don't pay anything. I forget how the mechanics of the accounting here actually works, but it's definitely insurance fraud.
Click to expand...

A lot of people don't realize this. They think their homeowner's deductible is $2000 or whatever, then after the hailstorm they find out that the roof has a different deductible. Around Denver, few houses are less than $500,000 anymore, so your 2% roof deductible can easily be $10,000-$12,000 or more (basically you get to pay for most of your new roof). Check you policies if you live in hail areas, I make sure my policy doesn't have a different roof deductible.

And talking insurance, building prices are crazy now. Last December there was a big fire in the Denver area that destroyed 1,000 homes. The rebuilding costs are $300-$350/square foot now so over 80% of those homeowners are under insured and will need out of pocket money to rebuild. Scary to think about.
 
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