N490NW - C172 - California to Hawaii

Not sure if serious. Not asking for regulatory purposes, just the strategy used in making such a flight. There are trade offs to everything.

From a regulatory perspective they only needed half an hour if they fly VFR fuel Reserves. You think somebody actually planned that flight to only land with a half an hour of fuel at their destination?

I've planned similar flight and my fuel reserves were 6 hours I wouldn't worry about burning an extra 2.6 gallons on climb out
 
Just curious to see how much the ferry pilot charged. There's a good AOPA video on youtube where the ferry pilot has an issue with the vent on the ferry tanks and spends most of the flight having to add pressure to the system by blowing into the vent.
 
From a regulatory perspective they only needed half an hour if they fly VFR fuel Reserves. You think somebody actually planned that flight to only land with a half an hour of fuel at their destination?

I've planned similar flight and my fuel reserves were 6 hours I wouldn't worry about burning an extra 2.6 gallons on climb out
So you are definitely not serious. You might be the only person not interested in saving 2.6 gallons of fuel ( which equals about 15 min or more of flight time in cruise) on a trans-pacific flight to an Island. Yes, I get you can put extra fuel in the plane, but at what safety or operational concern for that extra fuel. Lindbergh, in his transatlantic flight was over gross and not sure if otherwise in a normal envelope. If not, he needed to keep his speed up to avoid finding out how out of balance he was. And yes, he made it so no regulatory concern either, not that I was asking.
 
So you are definitely not serious. You might be the only person not interested in saving 2.6 gallons of fuel ( which equals about 15 min or more of flight time in cruise) on a trans-pacific flight to an Island. Yes, I get you can put extra fuel in the plane, but at what safety or operational concern for that extra fuel. Lindbergh, in his transatlantic flight was over gross and not sure if otherwise in a normal envelope. If not, he needed to keep his speed up to avoid finding out how out of balance he was. And yes, he made it so no regulatory concern either, not that I was asking.
You are assuming that there would be a fuel advantage with altitude.
 
So you are definitely not serious. You might be the only person not interested in saving 2.6 gallons of fuel ( which equals about 15 min or more of flight time in cruise) on a trans-pacific flight to an Island. Yes, I get you can put extra fuel in the plane, but at what safety or operational concern for that extra fuel. Lindbergh, in his transatlantic flight was over gross and not sure if otherwise in a normal envelope. If not, he needed to keep his speed up to avoid finding out how out of balance he was. And yes, he made it so no regulatory concern either, not that I was asking.

No, I am serious. You can spent hours and hours trying to figure out if you should climb at 80kts, 82kts, 84kts, 86kts...at 100fpm 200fpm 400fpm...fly at 1000 1500 2000 2500...throttle back in climb, and if so how much, 1" 2" 3" 4"...

It can be a 17 variable calculus problem, and you can make it easy on yourself by giving yourself enough extra fuel to not worry about it.

I am not going to be worried about 2.6 gallons of fuel on a 90 gallon reserve (that's noise on a 15+ hour flight), and neither should anyone else. (The aircraft I planned for would have been 90 gallons of reserve, which would have still been over 1000lbs less TOW that other flights done on that airframe and power plant.)
 
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Just curious to see how much the ferry pilot charged. There's a good AOPA video on youtube where the ferry pilot has an issue with the vent on the ferry tanks and spends most of the flight having to add pressure to the system by blowing into the vent.
Read "ferry pilot" by Kerry McCauley. That's his story; it's in the book with a bunch of others. Excellent book.
 
You are assuming that there would be a fuel advantage with altitude.
I’m sure you know this but
there usually is increased TAS available with higher altitude because of reduced friction in thinner air.

Add to this the efficiency of a typical NA engine at WOT at 8K and above. Then max range and endurance could occur at 55-65% power at even higher altitude. Obviously, winds aloft become extremely important for range. This aircraft has a glass cockpit probably with TAS always available coupled with his GPS navigator giving him the GS. Therefore the real-time winds aloft can be calculated in flight and he potentially could adjust that altitude to max his range.

The local knowledge of the prevailing winds during the different seasons and weather/wind forecast models are probably utilized to select the most opportune conditions as a tailwind is desirable, and I think was available for this flight. Obviously if significant headwinds occur at altitude then selecting a lower altitude would be wiser if the combination of fuel efficiency and wind gives an acceptable range with reserve given the fuel onboard. In the case of EdFred’s 2.6 gal to altitude, this is probably close if it’s consumption is close to my Lycoming O360 table when a/c operated at Vy, full rich, and at max gross. But this aircraft was reported as being 300 lbs over gross (by Blancolirio above) and probably higher than Vy, if the flight log groundspeed is an indication.
 
I’m sure you know this but
there usually is increased TAS available with higher altitude because of reduced friction in thinner air.

Add to this the efficiency of a typical NA engine at WOT at 8K and above. Then max range and endurance could occur at 55-65% power at even higher altitude. Obviously, winds aloft become extremely important for range. This aircraft has a glass cockpit probably with TAS always available coupled with his GPS navigator giving him the GS. Therefore the real-time winds aloft can be calculated in flight and he potentially could adjust that altitude to max his range.

The local knowledge of the prevailing winds during the different seasons and weather/wind forecast models are probably utilized to select the most opportune conditions as a tailwind is desirable, and I think was available for this flight. Obviously if significant headwinds occur at altitude then selecting a lower altitude would be wiser if the combination of fuel efficiency and wind gives an acceptable range with reserve given the fuel onboard. In the case of EdFred’s 2.6 gal to altitude, this is probably close if it’s consumption is close to my Lycoming O360 table when a/c operated at Vy, full rich, and at max gross. But this aircraft was reported as being 300 lbs over gross (by Blancolirio above) and probably higher than Vy, if the flight log groundspeed is an indication.
Wind, maybe. I haven’t looked to see what they were. TAS isn’t necessarily an advantage, although with 15 hours to make up what’s lost in climb, it’s more likely.
 
there usually is increased TAS available with higher altitude because of reduced friction in thinner air.
the engine is also making less power, my real world experience is that anything about 8,500-10,500 in an NA plane you aren't gaining anything with TAS. The other thing, this guy would have had to have been on O2 for nearly 18 hours if he had gone higher than 10K.. what's the point? He had enough gas. That extra 2K would have introduced more weight and another point of failure
 
No, I am serious. You can spent hours and hours trying to figure out if you should climb at 80kts, 82kts, 84kts, 86kts...at 100fpm 200fpm 400fpm...fly at 1000 1500 2000 2500...throttle back in climb, and if so how much, 1" 2" 3" 4"...

It can be a 17 variable calculus problem, and you can make it easy on yourself by giving yourself enough extra fuel to not worry about it.

I am not going to be worried about 2.6 gallons of fuel on a 90 gallon reserve (that's noise on a 15+ hour flight), and neither should anyone else. (The aircraft I planned for would have been 90 gallons of reserve, which would have still been over 1000lbs less TOW that other flights done on that airframe and power plant.)
I honestly don’t know what airframe you are basing your argument on but it does not sound like a Cessna 172. As Blancolirio indicated in his video above, the flight was planned to use 8 gph, which by my estimate is 55-60% power, and had, I think he said, 20 hours of fuel that would give a reserve of 2hrs, or 16 gal of reserve fuel. That means that a fuel to climb to altitude rounded to 3gals is close to 20% of the reserve, not insignificant. Your example of having a 90 gal reserve has no place in the flight planning for this 172 flight, which was already 300lbs over gross.
 
the engine is also making less power, my real world experience is that anything about 8,500-10,500 in an NA plane you aren't gaining anything with TAS. The other thing, this guy would have had to have been on O2 for nearly 18 hours if he had gone higher than 10K.. what's the point? He had enough gas. That extra 2K would have introduced more weight and another point of failure
What you are gaining at higher altitude is a higher TAS relative to a lower % of power, which saves fuel but increases the range one can attain when a headwind does not counter that. No need for O2 at 10k feet, nor it’s associated weight.
 
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I honestly don’t know what airframe you are basing your argument on but it does not sound like a Cessna 172. As Blancolirio indicated in his video above, the flight was planned to use 8 gph, which by my estimate is 55-60% power, and had, I think he said, 20 hours of fuel that would give a reserve of 2hrs, or 16 gal of reserve fuel. That means that a fuel to climb to altitude rounded to 3gals is close to 20% of the reserve, not insignificant. Your example of having a 90 gal reserve has no place in the flight planning for this 172 flight, which was already 300lbs over gross.

I never said this particular flight, I said similar. The planning I did was for a Comanche 250. And I wouldn't plan a flight of that duration with only 10% fuel reserves. It wouldn't take much to eat into that just from leaning optimally, or fuel flow is slightly off, or a number of other things that wouldn't have an effect on a 3 hour flight. A equivalent 3 hour flight compared to this is only 18 minutes of fuel reserves. Would you do that flight? I wouldn't. Plan it well enough so your climbout excess fuel burn is only 2% loss of reserves, not 20%.

For the Comanche the reserve fuel was factory mains and STC'd tip tanks with a ferry permit tank set-up in the rear seat, being about 600 over gross. Around 50% fuel reserves (by hours, not by total fuel) without even flying at max efficiency.

But this is a perfect example of why I said this was a calculus problem - which you dismissed.
 
I haven't flown in a long time, and have no familiarity with the high tech stuff most y'all active pilots take for granted. So how about a crude way to do it: plan in advance using predicted fuel flow and best no-wind standard day airspeeds for gradual reduction in GW. Pick a range of feasible altitudes, say half a dozen, along with forecast winds aloft for a route segment and repeat the process for the trip, choosing the best altitude for each arbitrary segment.

Once launched, check fuel flow against ground (water?) speed to calculate specific range at your altitude. Repeat for altitude above and below. If either is better, climb or descend a bit. If it's a whole lot better, change altitudes again. Bear in mind actual enroute winds aloft aren't always as forecast, and your optimum altitude will vary with headwind gradient (delta increase/decrease with altitude). Might take a couple knots per thousand feet for that effect to show up, but you will find it a big advantage to pick the right altitude. And, if you really want to get picky, then you can vary IAS a knot or two once stabilized on an optimum altitude. Of course, you do need an accurate means of calculating fuel flow and ground (water) speed for this all to work.

Poor man's calculus. Try it at your desk first. Don't want anybody getting wet.
 
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But this is a perfect example of why I said this was a calculus problem - which you dismissed.
Not a calculus problem but pure arithmetic using the information in the POH of your aircraft. No need to complicate something that is fairly straightforward with the exception of considerations of ferry tanks and their connections, and human factors. Autopilots, gps navigators, fuel flow indicators takes a lot of the sweating out of the unknowns during a real flight. Weather is always the kicker.
 
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Cap10. Fun aerobatic aircraft. But it has a wood spar. Is that wing easily detachable for shipping?

Not sure. Seller/broker seemed to think it was not a big deal. And it did GET to Hawaii. :D

Later CAP-10s have a carbon fiber spar, and I think there is an upgrade. So wing must be pretty easy to take off.
 
Stuff like this is why I lust after Merlins, the idea that you could just pick a random day and fly to friggin Hawaii "because reasons". Seems like an amusing way to torch the 10 grand you're tired of looking at.

Kudos to the set on the dude doing it in a skyhawk.
 
Live, if anyone is interested.

I saw Blancolirio make a reference to this on his YouTube page with a comment of "Wow". I'm not sure if this is a ferry attempt or what the context is.

It was live when I was tracking it, with flight time of 15+ hours on FR24 ... Flightaware seems to indicate it's still chugging along.

Check out playback of aircraft N490NW from Merced to Honolulu on Flightradar24. https://fr24.com/data/aircraft/n490nw#2d23f904

Saw this too, it was a Ferry Flight. I've seen others add as much as 500 gallons capacity for long ferry runs.
 
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But how? (And why?) But more importantly, HOW? Did they somehow pack 200 gallons of fuel into that 172? And it has the takeoff capacity to carry the pilot, equipment, plus 1,200 lbs of fuel?
They got a special dispensation on the GR Wt from FAA for the Ferry Permit.
 
Just curious to see how much the ferry pilot charged. There's a good AOPA video on youtube where the ferry pilot has an issue with the vent on the ferry tanks and spends most of the flight having to add pressure to the system by blowing into the vent.
With the collapseable bladders that shouldn't really be much of an issue unless you're trying to squeeze the last few pints out of each of them to make the field.

The old metal tanks were a definitely a problem because you didn't want an open vent inside of the aircraft.
 
Other than potential for dinged on deck.....I just simply cannot wrap my head around this especially given the long wait holding for weather.....as opposed to loading it on deck like they transport yachts. No need to even pull the wings...just shrink wrap it really well...pulling the wings if reasonable would of course be good for reduced damage... of packing in a container like it was in an egg drop competition would even be better.

just seems like the chance of needing to repair some deck rash would be easier than the potential of salvaging it from the bottom of the pacific...and risking a pilot's life!

All that said...quite a bucket list adventure to be able to claim!
 
Other than potential for dinged on deck.....I just simply cannot wrap my head around this especially given the long wait holding for weather.....as opposed to loading it on deck like they transport yachts. No need to even pull the wings...just shrink wrap it really well...pulling the wings if reasonable would of course be good for reduced damage... of packing in a container like it was in an egg drop competition would even be better.

just seems like the chance of needing to repair some deck rash would be easier than the potential of salvaging it from the bottom of the pacific...and risking a pilot's life!

All that said...quite a bucket list adventure to be able to claim!
Not much risk to the pilot as long as it is an airworthy plane.

I could never sit that long myself but if I could the paycheck would be worth it.

If the flight school needed it in a hurry I'm sure they'd have considered the shipping options but that is considerably more expensive than going this route.
 
With the collapseable bladders that shouldn't really be much of an issue unless you're trying to squeeze the last few pints out of each of them to make the field.

The old metal tanks were a definitely a problem because you didn't want an open vent inside of the aircraft.

Thanks for the additional info.

Given that the FAA approves the ferry permits, and while they accept over gross configurations, they must have limits to how much they allow for safety. Also I would guess they would disapprove any configurations that are past the aft balance envelope limit.

Also, I’m curious about inflight oil supplementation systems. My Lycoming O360 burns a quart in 13-14hrs; other engines may not be as thrifty. While I don’t know if flying near 55% power causes more or less oil consumption than usual, this 18 hr flight may have dropped my oil level 1.3 qts. While I usually fly with the dipstick at the 7qt mark since filling to 8 will cause a rapid purge of the first quart without much benefit, I can see that filling to 8(max on dipstick) on this trans-pacific flight would give me something extra. Even so, I could expect the oil level at destination to be around 5.5 qts, which should be OK. However, if the flight was longer, or an engine required 1qt every 5 hrs, one could be 3-4 qts down. Are there oil supplementation systems available just for these types of ferry flights? A quick internet search was not revealing.
 
Thanks for the additional info.

Given that the FAA approves the ferry permits, and while they accept over gross configurations, they must have limits to how much they allow for safety. Also I would guess they would disapprove any configurations that are past the aft balance envelope limit.

Also, I’m curious about inflight oil supplementation systems. My Lycoming O360 burns a quart in 13-14hrs; other engines may not be as thrifty. While I don’t know if flying near 55% power causes more or less oil consumption than usual, this 18 hr flight may have dropped my oil level 1.3 qts. While I usually fly with the dipstick at the 7qt mark since filling to 8 will cause a rapid purge of the first quart without much benefit, I can see that filling to 8(max on dipstick) on this trans-pacific flight would give me something extra. Even so, I could expect the oil level at destination to be around 5.5 qts, which should be OK. However, if the flight was longer, or an engine required 1qt every 5 hrs, one could be 3-4 qts down. Are there oil supplementation systems available just for these types of ferry flights? A quick internet search was not revealing.
@Katamarino did you have oil consumption worries on your long legs?
 
Just landed. I'm not sure how enviable sitting in place for 18+ hours is, so kudos to the pilot.

It's not actually as bad as I thought it would be! Stretching one's legs out into the copilot footwell from time to time really helps, as well as just wriggling around in the seat.
 
It is interesting to me that the flight log shows a slow climb rate on departure but keeping speed up mostly over 100 kts to the initial altitude to 6100ft. I have not seen the actual account from the pilot but I wonder whether this I dictated by the gross or over gross weight, or for keeping higher IAS to allow for better control of the aircraft if out of envelope. If W&B is at the rear limit or in fact out of the W&B envelope, allowing fuel to burn off from the rear first will better get into balance later when the rear tank is exhausted. Or, is this simply a factor of capturing the best tailwind at that lower altitude and milking it. Normally, I would think of getting to best altitude for wind and TAS considerations as rapidly as possible to get maximal intended leaning started to save fuel burn.

When heavily overweight the CG in my 182 is right at the aft limit (ahem) of the range. I keep speed high on takeoff and climb to help with longitudinal stability, although I believe the aft CG limit is spin limited on the 182. It's surprisingly stable.
 
Carson Speed. Best distance versus fuel burn.

If winds allow, the best altitude would be where WOT gives you an IAS of the Carson Speed.

The Carson Speed is 1.3x Best Glide.
 
I'm calling BS on this whole thread. First of all, if you look at his so called track on flight aware, most of it is somehow missing? Are we saying he tried to pull a Martha Lunkin? Or, did something else happen? Also, if you look at the takeoff / arrival times, the difference is 14 hours, not the supposed 18 hours. Obviously some kind of conspiracy going on here - most likely involving the "round earthers".
 
Seems that a $5,000 shipping fee plus disassembly reassembly cost is chickenfeed on a plane worth $475,000. Plus, what is the extra fuel/ferry pilot/insurance/long range tank cost total for such a trip? Personally, I would have shipped and earned months of potential rental income in Hawaii. Sure, you would have saved some money doing a ferry flight to Hawaii, but the way I do the math, the savings seems minimal and not worth the risk.
 
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Months of down time waiting for the perfect weather window, buying and having aux fuel tanks installed, the cost of fuel, the cost of the ferry pilot, etc. Wouldn't it have just been cheaper and easier to pull the wings, put it in a container and ship it over?

I watched Blancolirio's video about this flight. He said many of the flight school and single-engine aircraft in HI come over by flying. It's cheaper and faster than pulling the wings off and putting them in a container and float it to HI. I think it's not the owner and regular pilots moving them to HI but professional ferry pilots.
 
No - have never seen enough consumption in my O-470-50 to be anywhere close to an issue.
Thanks for participating in the conversation. While I actively followed your flight around the world, I apologize for losing track of you after your engine work and the following Covid madness that altered your flight plans. Obviously, you made it safely back to North America.

Regarding the oil depletion issue, I actually queried you about that when you were in preflight planning. I am glad it was not an issue, but what was your longest non-stop flight segment again?

I think I remember that the nonstop around the world flight of Rutan/Yeager in their tricked out plane had an oil supplementation system, that duration of flight being much longer than any of the segments relevant to this discussion. I think the good news is that Lycoming and Continental really did a good job engineering our engines in that the full oil capacity is way over what is needed for most flight scenarios considering oil consumption. And while I am used to feeling uncomfortable when the oil level in my LYC O360A4M goes below 5.5-6qts, I believe Lycoming says the minimum safe quantity in the sump can be as low as 2 qts. Your engine probably has a similar impressive minimum sump requirement.

Having said that, anyone thinking about a long overwater leg without knowing your settled down engine oil consumption is in my mind foolhardy. In your case, after your engine work in Australia, you had many down-under cross countries to brake in your cylinders and stabilize your consumption to a known figure.
While 1qt consumption in 3-4 hrs of flying might be OK for terrestrial pilots, that would result in 6 qts consumed on a 18hr leg. That is unquestionably dangerous for my engine, and could never be an engine to bet your life on without some way to insure supplementation of that oil enroute.
 
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When heavily overweight the CG in my 182 is right at the aft limit (ahem) of the range. I keep speed high on takeoff and climb to help with longitudinal stability, although I believe the aft CG limit is spin limited on the 182. It's surprisingly stable.
It is amazing to me that your 182 with its large useful load could actually push you to the (ahem) aft limit. How much extra fuel tank capacity did you carry?

I would not be surprised if that was the case with this particular 172, although the extra ferry tank gallons were neatly placed right behind the front seats, judging by the photographs. Just for the benefit of others reading this thread, of course the real danger to be aft that limit is the potentially unrecoverable flat spin that we all dread and need to avoid.
 
18hrs x 8gph x $5gal =$720
150 gal fuel bladder = $2000
Ferry pilot $50hr x 18 hrs = $900
Ferry pilot return flight = $500
total = $4120

And iMO these are conservative estimates. I bet the bladder(s) and pilot were a lot more than that.

Either they already had the bladders, or they expected shipping delays to be as long as the weather delay would be.
 
Not sure if serious. Not asking for regulatory purposes, just the strategy used in making such a flight. There are trade offs to everything.
I think you may be overlooking the obvious. Climbing slowly at or near cruising speed increases overall miles per gallon. I do it often, and I'm not trying to make 2000 miles, just squeezing every drop of fuel for all I can get.
 
And iMO these are conservative estimates. I bet the bladder(s) and pilot were a lot more than that.

Either they already had the bladders, or they expected shipping delays to be as long as the weather delay would be.
If it was handled by an outfit specializing in long ferry flights, the bladders and other required equipment would be shipped back to be used again for the next job.

Shipping a 20' container from CA to Hawaii costs around $10K not counting assembly and disassembly.
 
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