N21480 VFR into IMC

[DesertNomad]

An hour in actual during private pilot training would produce far more value than the 3 hours simulated.

I have never asked ATC for a block altitude and an area to work in to "just fly around" in the clouds (e.g. remain within 7 miles of a fix at 5K-7K, etc). Will they even give something like that to you? I am not sure that straight and level in IMC helps too much as I think there needs to be some real maneuvering like we would do under a hood.

I am curious how many here got actual IMC during their PPL training?

 

[robin ardoin]

I am curious how many here got actual IMC during their PPL training?

I have. However, I am on the extended PPL plan waiting for a SI medical to solo. We moved onto instrument training at about 65hrs. We try to get as much actual as we can.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I have never asked ATC for a block altitude and an area to work in to "just fly around" in the clouds (e.g. remain within 7 miles of a fix at 5K-7K, etc). Will they even give something like that to you? I am not sure that straight and level in IMC helps too much as I think there needs to be some real maneuvering like we would do under a hood.

depends where you are. Over Chicago? No. Nowhere, North Dakota, probably.

I am curious how many here got actual IMC during their PPL training?

I had an inadvertent IMC with a student once…he did not react in accordance with his training.

 

[luvflyin]

I have never asked ATC for a block altitude and an area to work in to "just fly around" in the clouds (e.g. remain within 7 miles of a fix at 5K-7K, etc). Will they even give something like that to you? I am not sure that straight and level in IMC helps too much as I think there needs to be some real maneuvering like we would do under a hood.

I am curious how many here got actual IMC during their PPL training?

Depends on what you mean by actual. I got some but we didn’t go up to do that. It was clear and forever in the practice area but socked in at the airport. Needed an Approach to get home. I was able to do it with minimal help from the CFI. He gave me power settings to set up for it and the power setting to go to for Glidesope intercept and an RPM change on final when drifting off the Glideslope. But he didn’t have to touch the plane. I thought that was kinda cool. We had already done the PPL hood time stuff before that day.

 

[Anthem]

An hour in actual during private pilot training would produce far more value than the 3 hours simulated.

not arguing whether training is beneficial - but you wonder by doing more IMC training, whether that gives VFR only pilots more reason to get themselves in to trouble, thinking they can successfully get out. Its a delicate balance. . because when they are in- they never should have been or gotten themselves in to begin with. At the same time, that isnt a reason to "withhold" training per se - but it might embolden others. ..

 

[sarangan]

I have never asked ATC for a block altitude and an area to work in to "just fly around" in the clouds (e.g. remain within 7 miles of a fix at 5K-7K, etc). Will they even give something like that to you? I am not sure that straight and level in IMC helps too much as I think there needs to be some real maneuvering like we would do under a hood.

I am curious how many here got actual IMC during their PPL training?

I have done exactly this, and shown them how to do the 180 turn back in actual conditions. The experience usually freaks them out enough that they will have a greater respect for IMC. Doing the same training under the hood can give someone a false sense of confidence. The best spot to ask ATC for this directly on top of an airport, because you will not be in anyone's approach path.

 

[PaulS]

I am curious how many here got actual IMC during their PPL training?

I had tons of actual while training for instrument. My instructor was game to fly with ceilings 500 or more. A couple times I ended up doing lpvs and ilss to mins. We also went to an airport that was below mins for a real missed. It was good stuff, I told him I wanted to be comfortable flying imc and it worked. I do an ipc or a flight review every 6 months for the rentals I use. But even if I didn’t have that requirement I’d still do the same.


As far as training for ppl I entered the clouds once while training, he had switched off my headset and asked for a pop up ifr clearance. I was waiting for him to tell me to turn. When we popped in he said “what are you going to do now?” I did an ok 180, it was a good lesson.

 

[flyingron]

Wouldn't that ability be somewhat inversely proportional to your airspeed? Trying to do it at 60ktas seems a lot easier than 160ktas

Speed will certainly make it worse, but you're looking out into milkiness that is well short of a horizon.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Speed will certainly make it worse, but you're looking out into milkiness that is well short of a horizon.

That’s why I like at least a mile vis.

 

[woodchucker]

Agreed.
But being engulfed by the white stuff during one's first time in IMC, and not being able to peek through the edges to catch glimpes of the ground or the horizon does make a lasting impression.

That it does. Was clear for miles and what appeared as clouds ahead suddenly became a rain/snow squall stuck in a valley. Thankfully I had just passed over an airport and went into a descending 180 to land and wait it out. It’s not something easily forgotten.

 

[Ed Haywood]

I wonder if it would help if the US had an “en route” instrument rating like the Europeans. Much easier to get than a full IR, only requiring 15 hours of training. The pilot can’t fly IR approaches or departures; that must be done VFR. But he can transition to IFR for the en route phase of flight, allowing him to continue into IMC or climb above a layer.

I think many GA pilots use their instrument rating this way most of the time anyway.

See below.


==========================================
https://flight-examiner.com/skill-test/enroute-instrument-rating

Privileges of the EASA En-route Instrument rating
The privileges of the holder of an en-route instrument rating are to conduct flights by day under IFR in the en route phase of flight. The privileges of EIR may be extended to conduct IFR Night flights the en route phase of flight if the pilot holds a night rating in accordance with FCL.810. The holder of the en route instrument ratingmay only commence or continue a flight if the latest available meteorological information indicates that:

• the weather conditions on departure are such as to enable the segment of the flight from take-off to a planned VFR-to-IFR transition to be conducted in compliance with VFR; and
• at the estimated time of arrival at the planned destination aerodrome, the weather conditions will be such as to enable the segment of the flight from an IFR-to-VFR transition to landing to be conducted in compliance with VFR.

What happens if conditions at destination are worse than forecast?

 

[midlifeflyer]

What happens if conditions at destination are worse than forecast?

Same thing we should be doing when the conditions at our destination drop below our personal minimums. Go somewhere else, preferably to an alternate we planned ahead of time. I'm not even thinking about the requirement to file an alternate unless the destination forecast is above certain minimums. Instead, I'm thinking in terms of

§ 91.103 Preflight action.

Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight. This information must include -​

(a) For a flight under IFR or a flight not in the vicinity of an airport, weather reports and forecasts, fuel requirements, alternatives available if the planned flight cannot be completed, and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC;​

 

[Half Fast]

What happens if conditions at destination are worse than forecast?

Same as any VFR flight. Go elsewhere.

 

[Ed Haywood]

A lot of pilots with VFR-only aircraft think they are adequately equipped with either a TC or portable AHRS. With the low cost of digital EFIS these days, I think that is madness. If you do blunder into clouds, you will be very, very glad to have a certified AHI you can trust. When you pop out of the clouds you will realize that was the best $3000 you ever spent. Ask me how I know.

 

[MauleSkinner]

A lot of pilots with VFR-only aircraft think they are adequately equipped with either a TC or portable AHRS. With the low cost of digital EFIS these days, I think that is madness. If you do blunder into clouds, you will be very, very glad to have a certified AHI you can trust. When you pop out of the clouds you will realize that was the best $3000 you ever spent. Ask me how I know.

I’ve never been unhappy with a T&B…in most light airplanes I’d take that over an AI, given the choice.

 

[dbahn]

I'm instrument current but really only fly VFR now. The C206 ended up with synthetic vision at the request of one former partner who later left the partnership. The other partner and I didn't want it, but he also moved away left me as the sole owner.

The synthetic vision is basically useless to me now, but if someone ever got into the soup they could probably fly all the way to (or INTO) the ground without really needing instrument skills.

 

[Stevea621j]

When I trained we were lucky enough to have an ASR approach. For the PPL instrument training, we did about an hour under the hood with basic maneuvers, and the other 2 hours doing ASR approaches. I thought that was good because it simulates the type of assistance you may get from ATC if you inadvertently got yourself into the clouds, and keeps your focus basically on controlling the airplane without having to do anything that diverts your attention elsewhere.

 

[asicer]

The synthetic vision is basically useless to me now, but if someone ever got into the soup they could probably fly all the way to (or INTO) the ground without really needing instrument skills.

I wouldn't put it past a few people to crash anyway.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Never quite understood the utility of synthetic vision except for mountain flying. Seems like if you were going to get spatially disoriented on an AI, the more complex presentation of SVI wasn't going to help.

 

[dbahn]

Never quite understood the utility of synthetic vision except for mountain flying. Seems like if you were going to get spatially disoriented on an AI, the more complex presentation of SVI wasn't going to help.

I could see it helping to pick a better crash site with an engine failure at night or over fog when terrain is also an issue, but if you don't fly in those conditions (which I no longer do) it's really just fancy gadgetry.