My past, starting as a student

A

Alt3000

Guest
Started flight training in 2008-2009 soloed with a student pilot certificate with a 3rd class medical but had to drop out because I ran out of money in my early twenties. Here I am now mid thirties and life is way different now and wanting my ppl. In 2011 I had a misdemeanor possession and theft charge. In 2013 I had a dui and 2 assault charges. I did everything with every conviction just exactly as I was told and have went on with a great life these days with my wife and I, plus a job at the same company since 2011. Was with my instructor today for my second lesson and when I got to the question filing out my student pilot certificate online it asked if I had any drug convictions, so at this point my instructor wanted me to get more advice as he’s never dealt with that. Do I need to go ahead and apply for my student pilot certificate? What am I looking at as far as this process and how do I need to proceed? Thanks guys.
 
lots of similar questions, answers and advice in the archives. me? i wouldn't apply for the medical until you talk with a qualified AME in a consultation situation, not an exam. dr. bruce chien is a member here and may pop,up and respond to you. if not try his website http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/.

will your convictions be an impediment...most likely. i'd also consult with an aviation lawyer before you proceed.

if you apply for a 3rd class med and are outright denied the door to a Sport Pilot certificate closes as well. Sport Pilot does not require a med certificate...you self-certify via a valid driver's license. if you apply for a 3rd class med, pass but are deferred (likely) you may have months of work ahead to get your med issued. that's why a consultation with Dr. Bruce or an AME and an avi lawyer that handles these types of cases is a good idea.

knowledge is power.
 
Last edited:
Is he able to go basic med? He says he had a medical previously in 2008/2009 timeframe which is within the dates for basic med.
 
Volzalum said:
Is he able to go basic med? He says he had a medical previously in 2008/2009 timeframe which is within the dates for basic med.
Click to expand...

Very possibly

What do I need to do to fly under BasicMed?
Comply with the general BasicMed requirements (possess a U.S. driver's license, have held a medical after July 14, 2006).
Get a physical exam with a state-licensed physician, using the Comprehensive Medical Examination Checklist
Complete a BasicMed medical education course;

So long as one of the below doesn’t apply

Medical Conditions Requiring One Special Issuance Before Operating under BasicMed
A mental health disorder, limited to an established medical history or clinical diagnosis of—
A personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts;
A psychosis, defined as a case in which an individual —
Has manifested delusions, hallucinations, grossly bizarre or disorganized behavior, or other commonly accepted symptoms of psychosis; or
May reasonably be expected to manifest delusions, hallucinations, grossly bizarre or disorganized behavior, or other commonly accepted symptoms of psychosis;
A bipolar disorder; or
A substance dependence within the previous 2 years, as defined in §67.307(a)(4) of 14 Code of Federal Regulations
A neurological disorder, limited to an established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
Epilepsy;
Disturbance of consciousness without satisfactory medical explanation of the cause; or
A transient loss of control of nervous system functions without satisfactory medical explanation of the cause.
A cardiovascular condition, limited to a one-time special issuance for each diagnosis of the following:
Myocardial infarction;
Coronary heart disease that has required treatment;
Cardiac valve replacement; or
Heart replacement.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/basic_med/
 
Volzalum said:
Is he able to go basic med? He says he had a medical previously in 2008/2009 timeframe which is within the dates for basic med.
Click to expand...

+1

Unless you diagnosed with substance problems
 
DanStrange said:
+1

Unless you diagnosed with substance problems
Click to expand...

In the last 2 years ... I wasn’t sure if you could be a student pilot with BasicMed since for most student pilots the 3rd class medical is the Student Pilot License.
 
Volzalum said:
In the last 2 years ... I wasn’t sure if you could be a student pilot with BasicMed since for most student pilots the 3rd class medical is the Student Pilot License.
Click to expand...

I don’t see why not, but I have not had a student who qualified for basic since all I have had got their first medicals with me or were sport.

I don’t think if this guy goes for a normal medical it will turn out well.
 
DanStrange said:
I don’t think if this guy goes for a normal medical it will turn out well.
Click to expand...

I don't think so either. The two assault charges in the same year just seven years ago is serious. Possession in 2011 and a DUI two years later isn't good either. This is why I suggested he go Sport Pilot. I'm afraid if he touches this he will lose and be left with ultralights or gliders or an extremely expensive trip through FAA purgatory.

On the other hand I understand making mistakes, as the Lord knows I've made my share. I applaud & respect a man that picks up the pieces, fixes the broken parts, and starts again proving that the past is past and the lessons are learned. However, I do not believe the FAA will be easy to convince. Besides, Light Sport aircraft are a blast and ... rumor has it that we will soon get more added to the privileges. But again this is the FAA we're dealing with!
 
One thing I need to mention as it’s been so long since I’ve thought about all that is that theirs one assault charge not two. They replaced one with vandalism. Anyways. Not sure where I need to start. Pretty bummed out to say the least.
 
Hopefully, he made the 61.15(e) reports on the DUI. A medical and student pilot certificate is subject to the reporting requirement (I suspect that he was young enough to have a five-year duration there).
 
I did not report it as I had no clue that I was supposed to. 2008 is when I got student certificate and then dui happened in 2012 but wasn’t convicted until 2014. Courts took forever.
 
Your student certificate was dead in 2014, so there was no duty to report as an airman.

What I see, you qualify for basicmed, which is an alternative way of qualifying your medical by getting an exam with your doctor and taking an on-line training course.

Should you is a different question. Drug use, including alcohol, is not consistent with flying. Right now only you know if you have a problem. Entering the world of flying, you will not keep it a secret, you’ll have too many interactions with others. If you’re really over it, no worries, but if not, flying will make it much, much harder to hide.
 
DanStrange said:
+1

Unless you diagnosed with substance problems
Click to expand...

incorrect. You are conflating FAA medical with Basicmed. They are entirely separate sections of the regulations.

is there a new part 61 or 91 regulation I missed?
 
What was the possession charge for?

you’re going to have to just be honest and see where it goes. This is not a medical denial and there are pilots flying who have possession charges. I don’t know the criteria for denial of a student application.
 
Possession was for a pharmaceutical. I’ve been away from that stuff ever since. Those events changed my life.
 
The good thing about government openness is that answers are out there if you look long enough.

the reference you need is in FAA “FSIMS” document 8900.1. https://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=EBookContents&restricttocategory=all~pubs

convictions less than ... 1? 3? .... years old are not automatically disqualifying. You answer yes, give the dates and the flight standard says you are acceptable.

this is not addressed in the AC that you CFI was probably referencing
 
What is the “AC”, airman certificate?
Where should I start?

bflynn said:
The good thing about government openness is that answers are out there if you look long enough.

the reference you need is in FAA “FSIMS” document 8900.1. https://fsims.faa.gov/PICResults.aspx?mode=EBookContents&restricttocategory=all~pubs

convictions less than ... 1? 3? .... years old are not automatically disqualifying. You answer yes, give the dates and the flight standard says you are acceptable.

this is not addressed in the AC that you CFI was probably referencing
Click to expand...
 
AC is advisory circular, a publication by the FAA explaining things in shorter form. AC 61-141 is for a CFI as a certifying official of an IACRA student application, but it does not address how to handle Yes for drug convictions.

In the FSIMS, you need volume 5, Section 3, 5-55) B) 1). Or more accurately, this answers your instructors concern about past convictions. After 1 year, it can be passed.

last thing - I do want to highlight that answering no was never an option for you. Lying opens you up to a world of legal trouble later and there are people on this board who have suffered it. I’m not saying you would, just pointing out for posterity that it isn’t acceptable.

The reference should satisfy your instructor. Previous advice about Basicmed is highly recommended too...you should never get an FAA medical without knowing you’ll pass. There are questions here, so Basicmed is your most straight forward path to flying. You can reevaluate later as you learn more.
 
bflynn said:
incorrect. You are conflating FAA medical with Basicmed. They are entirely separate sections of the regulations.

is there a new part 61 or 91 regulation I missed?
Click to expand...

“Medical Conditions Requiring One Special Issuance Before Operating under BasicMed
A substance dependence within the previous 2 years, as defined in §67.307(a)(4) of 14 Code of Federal Regulations”

“§67.307 Mental.
Mental standards for a third-class airman medical certificate are:
(a) No established medical history or clinical diagnosis of any of the following:
(4) Substance dependence, except where there is established clinical evidence, satisfactory to the Federal Air Surgeon, of recovery, including sustained total abstinence from the substance(s) for not less than the preceding 2 years. As used in this section—“

Seems like the long and short is, if the guy isn’t a current or diagnosed alcoholic or druggie he should be good to go?
 
Last edited:
That one...yes, I mentally dismissed it because I had already read it wasn't relevant as long as there is no continued drug use.

(ii) “Substance dependence” means a condition in which a person is dependent on a substance, other than tobacco or ordinary xanthine-containing (e.g., caffeine) beverages, as evidenced by -
(A) Increased tolerance;
(B) Manifestation of withdrawal symptoms;
(C) Impaired control of use; or
(D) Continued use despite damage to physical health or impairment of social, personal, or occupational functioning.
 
Alt3000 said:
You don’t think I could get a 3rd or 1st class medical?
Click to expand...

Unless you want to fly for a career why would you want to? Basic is a better option and keeps your further away from FAA

Others know better, looks like a world of hurt and $$ to FAA land if you try that path.
 
Alt3000 said:
You don’t think I could get a 3rd or 1st class medical?
Click to expand...

It's a maybe, there's three possible outcomes: 1) you sail through without issue, 2) You can get a medical, but it's VERY expensive - thousands of dollars of testing and ongoing monitoring or 3) You get denied and can never fly again. I don't know what you would come out with. I don't think #3 is likely, but I believe #2 is more likely than #1. But that's just Some Guy on the Internet talking (SGOTI).

Prior to applying, you'll want to do a consult with a senior AME - or maybe a HIMS AME. That's not a medical exam, you pay them for a consulting session to talk about your issues. Its not a slam dunk.

I don't like the word maybe, it implies doubt of a successful outcome...in flying, that's a bad thing :)
 
DanStrange said:
Seems like the long and short is, if the guy isn’t a current or diagnosed alcoholic or druggie he should be good to go?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if this is the case. The FAA thinks that more than one drug or alcohol events in a person's life equates to substance "dependence" and will assume the applicant is dependent, rather than just an abuser, and will deny any level of medical application. Here, the OP says that they had a possession charge and a DUI which are two adverse consequence. Plus, the DUI falls under the new NTSB "guidelines" from years ago--that the FAA has only this year started to adhere to--in which anyone with a past DUI is likely to relapse again so why not just stick 'em in the HIMS program? My guess is that if OP applies for a medical cert, there will be several additional hurdles they have to overcome.

Alt3000 said:
In 2011 I had a misdemeanor possession and theft charge. In 2013 I had a dui and 2 assault charges.
Click to expand...

The FAA will likely see the OP as a "dependent" upon drugs and alcohol, regardless of how ridiculous this is. As a result, I think it's possible OP could get any medical certificate from the FAA but it's going to be a long, expensive process.

However, OP has had a medical in the past that was never revoked, so unless they want to get paid to fly, if I were them, I'd stay away from FAA CAMI and stick with basic med.
 
Last edited:
Why not go with Basic Med? I see no good reason to risk 3rd class right now. You can do everything needed for training with Basic Med, and likely for all personal flying afterward.
 
Alt3000 said:
What’s the difference in basic vs 3rd class
Click to expand...

If you have a previously-expired 3rd class medical certificate and there are no other medically disqualifying conditions, you can fly without a current medical certificate. The limitations include flying a plane < some maximum gross weight at altitudes < 18,000' and within the US (or Mexico, apparently).

The biggest difference, though, is that because you have that previously-expired 3rd class medical, you should never have to deal with FAA CAMI again.

Some Google-fu is helpful.
 
Last edited:
Alt3000 said:
What’s the difference in basic vs 3rd class
Click to expand...
Why don’t you google that? We have access to the same information as you do. Unless you want to become a professional pilot there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn’t go basic med.
 
I want to become a flight instructor. I’m pretty sure I had a 3rd class medical back in 2008-09, is there a way that I could check and if so where do I go?
 
Alt3000 said:
What’s the difference in basic vs 3rd class
Click to expand...

The major difference for you is that you can't fail Basicmed and you can't be forced into an intrusive and expensive drug monitoring program which I assume you do not need. Remember, if you are denied a FAA medical, you are grounded until you address the issues to the FAA's satisfaction...at your cost.

There only reason to get a first class medical right now is if your only goal is to fly commercially, but even then it will take years to accumulate enough experience for that.
 
Anyway you would mind communicating with me via email? (Clselby85@gmail.com)

bflynn said:
The major difference for you is that you can't fail Basicmed and you can't be forced into an intrusive and expensive drug monitoring program which I assume you do not need. Remember, if you are denied a FAA medical, you are grounded until you address the issues to the FAA's satisfaction...at your cost.

There only reason to get a first class medical right now is if your only goal is to fly commercially, but even then it will take years to accumulate enough experience for that.
Click to expand...
 
Alt3000 said:
I want to become a flight instructor. I’m pretty sure I had a 3rd class medical back in 2008-09, is there a way that I could check and if so where do I go?
Click to expand...

You can do this with basic med.

Unless you are going international, or flying larger aircraft think turbine sized, basic is the same as 3rd class, but without 90% of FAA nonsense.

Try to run your name here, probably will show your old medical
https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/
 
Last edited:
To get a basic don’t you have to have had a medical before? I am pretty sure I did have a third class before but it’s been so long I’m not sure. How could I find out? The application for basic ask the same question about past convictions.

DanStrange said:
You can do this with basic med.

Unless you are going international, or flying larger aircraft think turbine sized, basic is the same as 3rd class, but without 90% of FAA nonsense.
Click to expand...
 
Alt3000 said:
I did not report it as I had no clue that I was supposed to. 2008 is when I got student certificate and then dui happened in 2012 but wasn’t convicted until 2014. Courts took forever.
Click to expand...
The DUI conviction was possibly after your certificates expired. However, if there was any "motor vehicle matter" which would include any sort of suspension related from the incident, you needed to report that. If that is the case, I'd be talking to a good aviation attorney before you do anything else.
 
I just had a restricted license with a interlock device. Drivers license was never taken away.
 
flyingron said:
The DUI conviction was possibly after your certificates expired. However, if there was any "motor vehicle matter" which would include any sort of suspension related from the incident, you needed to report that. If that is the case, I'd be talking to a good aviation attorney before you do anything else.
Click to expand...

if he got his medical/student pilot certificate 7/2008, that would have been paper


§61.19 Duration of pilot and instructor certificates and privileges.
Paper student pilot certificate. A student pilot certificate issued under this part prior to April 1, 2016 expires:

(1) For student pilots who have not reached their 40th birthday, 60 calendar months after the month of the date of examination shown on the medical certificate.

(2) For student pilots who have reached their 40th birthday, 24 calendar months after the month of the date of examination shown on the medical certificate.

If under 40
I’d was valid to 7/2013, so he was a student pilot during his 2011 possession

And 2013 DUI IF DUI happens before July of 2013
Maybe failed to report, hope for summer drinking

If over 40
Student pilot expires 7/2010, all acts of stupid happen after certificate is expired.
No reporting was needed


If over 40 when you got student certificate, should be good to go basic med

If under 40 when you got student certificate, need FAA lawyer

That how I read for what it’s worth.
 
Last edited:
Looks like I’ll need to go the lawyer route, wouldn’t y’all suggest that?
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top