My IPC failure.

[gismo]

No, I didn't fail the IPC but I did get to experience an actual AI failure. Tony Condon was kind enough to drive all the way to the Minneapolis area last Saturday to renew my IR currency with an IPC in the Baron. Other than a little trouble maintaining altitude on the first attempt of a steep turn things seemed to go OK. But for grins, we decided that Tony would fail my primary AI at some point by pulling the breaker (it's electric). We were both surprised at how long the unpowered gyro maintained it's functionality (and by the fact that I didn't notice the warning flag for several scans). It continued to operate normally for at least several minutes, but eventually started to pitch up and then quickly rolled over about 30 seconds later. That same gyro (Castelbury) also exhibited an unexpected trait during the steep turns (long before we powered it down). Each time when I was about halfway around the turn the AI would show about a 5 degree nose down attitude even though the airplane was actually pitched up slightly. The first time this happened I followed the AI for a bit and was puzzled by the fact that the plane was climbing at 500 FPM with such a nose down attitude. Cross checking with the vacuum powered AI confirmed that the electric AI was lying (Tony confirmed this visually as well). I made a couple more steep turns and the AI issue repeated, I guess I'll have to run this by Castlebury.

For the most part Tony never exhibited any noticeable apprehension about my flying although he did nearly jump into my seat once when we flew through a flock of small birds (no strikes fortunately).

After a "grueling" hour and a half in the air (not really, Tony's pretty laid back), I let Tony take the Porterfield up for a bit with me as a passenger and then we headed (by car) to Don Ingrams' (the operator of a soaring FBO) home near Faribault for an evening of barbecued chicken, lot's of flying talk, tasty deserts, and a nice computer slideshow of pictures Don has taken in and around sailplanes this year.

 

[RotaryWingBob]

Interesting post, Lance. Thanks.

 

[tonycondon]

No, I didn't fail the IPC but I did get to experience an actual AI failure. Tony Condon was kind enough to drive all the way to the Minneapolis area last Saturday to renew my IR currency with an IPC in the Baron. Other than a little trouble maintaining altitude on the first attempt of a steep turn things seemed to go OK. But for grins, we decided that Tony would fail my primary AI at some point by pulling the breaker (it's electric). We were both surprised at how long the unpowered gyro maintained it's functionality (and by the fact that I didn't notice the warning flag for several scans). It continued to operate normally for at least several minutes, but eventually started to pitch up and then quickly rolled over about 30 seconds later. That same gyro (Castelbury) also exhibited an unexpected trait during the steep turns (long before we powered it down). Each time when I was about halfway around the turn the AI would show about a 5 degree nose down attitude even though the airplane was actually pitched up slightly. The first time this happened I followed the AI for a bit and was puzzled by the fact that the plane was climbing at 500 FPM with such a nose down attitude. Cross checking with the vacuum powered AI confirmed that the electric AI was lying (Tony confirmed this visually as well). I made a couple more steep turns and the AI issue repeated, I guess I'll have to run this by Castlebury.

Ill be interested to hear what they say about that Lance. I was surprised that seemingly the 2G forces was dragging down the gyro and the motor took that long to catch up. Ive never flown with an electric AI before so I dont know what to expect, but id have to say it wasnt particularly confidence inspiring.

For the most part Tony never exhibited any noticeable apprehension about my flying although he did nearly jump into my seat once when we flew through a flock of small birds (no strikes fortunately).

yea that was close...its gotta be pretty scary when your safety pilot is swearing and ducking out of the way of "something" unknown to you!

 

[wsuffa]

Back when my HSI remote gyro was acting up, it would occasionally get into a mode where no flag woud show, but the gyro display would be locked about 30-degrees off of actual heading.

Sent it to repair after a trip out of Four Corners where it left me pointed toward a mountain instead of on-course. I had ensured alignment as I took the runway, but the gyro drifted and re-locked as I climbed into the air.

IMHO, this is one benefit of periodic IPC's in your own plane - you get to put the equipment to its paces and limits in an environment where it won't kill you if something acts up.

 

[EdFred]

Why a steep turn under the hood? That's been removed from the PTS. Just curious?

 

[tonycondon]

IMHO, this is one benefit of periodic IPC's in your own plane - you get to put the equipment to its paces and limits in an environment where it won't kill you if something acts up.

Agreed Bill, the last two I've done have been for James Dean and Lance in their airplanes and it seems it has been a good excercise for them. James got to deal with a real Turn Coordinator failure which was fun (now replaced with an electric AI, IIRC). Also I noticed this gave Lance a nice opportunity to familiarize himself with some of the incredible automation capabilities of his Baron with the 480 and autopilot combo. I seem to remember hearing a few times "I havent had a chance to try this yet..." as the autopilot did magic things such as flying us around the hold (after he had done a couple turns on his own of course!) It was also quite interesting for me, after spending 7 months or so testing electronic flight displays, to note the differences and how i liked some things more and disliked others.

 

[tonycondon]

Why a steep turn under the hood? That's been removed from the PTS. Just curious?

It was warm up. While I personally disagree with the decision to remove steep turns, slow flight and stalls from the instrument PTS, I was not hinging the outcome of Lance's IPC on how well he did the steep turns. I have found, however that they are a good way to get the scan moving and after that we went to some unusual attitudes and then into the approaches etc.

 

[KennyFlys]

I also disagree with removing those tasks from the instrument PTS. It's during slow flight maneuvers on approach a non-proficient pilot will stall and enter a spin. You know what comes next.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Geesh! Y'all are just having too much fun!! I feel left out. Nice to see good folks getting together like this and havin fun while working on great stuff!!

Best,

Dave

 

[tonycondon]

well jeez dave if youd come up to ames on saturday you'd have a ton of fun

 

[Ken Ibold]

Agreed Bill, the last two I've done have been for James Dean and Lance in their airplanes and it seems it has been a good excercise for them.

So what, Tony, do you get a kickback from the shop? "I'll go up and make them break their airplanes and then you give me 20 percent of the plunder when they get it fixed ..."

 

[tonycondon]

haha i wish ken. you get that new panel in the lance yet? need some instrument training??

Lance's AI was an induced failure (pulled breaker) not legitimate. was really cool to see it spin down and see how long it stayed good and how quickly it went from useable to total crap.

 

[Ken Ibold]

haha i wish ken. you get that new panel in the lance yet? need some instrument training??

No new panel yet. Still trying to figger out what to put in there. Now leaning at just plopping in a 530W and calling it close enough.

Actually, I went for my IPC today and took care of the ground and did some holds on the FTD. Didn't fly because we spent the rest of our time on ground power trying to figure out the #&%(@ GPS.

 

[bbchien]

Why a steep turn under the hood? That's been removed from the PTS. Just curious?

Steep turns (excess of 50 degress) are on the ATP PTS and are very very good for goosing you instrument competency. If your scan isn't fast, you simply lose it. IT gets your scan going.

 

[gismo]

Steep turns (excess of 50 degress) are on the ATP PTS and are very very good for goosing you instrument competency. If your scan isn't fast, you simply lose it. IT gets your scan going.

I have to agree with that, things happen pretty quickly in a steep turn, especially in a Baron doing 160-170 KTAS. I did reasonably well on the first turn, but the erroneous pitch down indication on the AI led me to climb 100 ft before I caught it and even then I was momentarily confused with the combination of a 500 FPM climb and a 5 deg. nose down attitude. After that I think I did better because I was expecting the false pitch down on the AI.

 

[tonycondon]

I have to agree with that, things happen pretty quickly in a steep turn, especially in a Baron doing 160-170 KTAS. I did reasonably well on the first turn, but the erroneous pitch down indication on the AI led me to climb 100 ft before I caught it and even then I was momentarily confused with the combination of a 500 FPM climb and a 5 deg. nose down attitude. After that I think I did better because I was expecting the false pitch down on the AI.

i agree with your evaluation. as i told you ive found it very difficult to do steep turns to standards in airplanes with that kind of power. getting my bosses within standards in the 421 was a trick for his MEI checkride. key was to throttle waaaaaay back.

 

[bbchien]

The key is to NEVER get any vertical momentum going. If you do, it's too late. Try it in a 132,000 pound ship.....

 

[sheldon957]

Steep turns (excess of 50 degress) are on the ATP PTS and are very very good for goosing you instrument competency. If your scan isn't fast, you simply lose it. IT gets your scan going.

I thought 45 degrees counted as steep turns....that's what they call it in my IFR syllabus.

 

[Teller1900]

We have to do them at 50 degrees for our checkrides in the 1900 (initial, recurrent, upgrade, transition, type, etc). Rumor has it, some of the check airmen will fail an engine in the middle of the second turn during type rides...talk about a lot going on...

 

[bbchien]

I thought 45 degrees counted as steep turns....that's what they call it in my IFR syllabus.

The ATP PTS says "at least 45 degrees". To not flunk it you have to be railroad precise at 45, or just fly 50 like the rest of us mortals.

 

[tonycondon]

We have to do them at 50 degrees for our checkrides in the 1900 (initial, recurrent, upgrade, transition, type, etc). Rumor has it, some of the check airmen will fail an engine in the middle of the second turn during type rides...talk about a lot going on...

this was part of the multi checkride in the seneca at the school i went to. certainly gets your attention.

 

[gismo]

this was part of the multi checkride in the seneca at the school i went to. certainly gets your attention.

'Specially if it's the inside engine.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

you have to be railroad precise at 45, or just fly 50 like the rest of us mortals.

Wow! Only rail road precise, huh. Sounds like an oxymoron to me

Best,

Dave

 

[poadeleted20]

I don't see the need for steep turns on an IR practical test or IPC (the manuever has no direct bearing on any IFR task), but PIC and I still teach them as an instrument training exercise for several reasons. First, as noted above, it's a great scan-development exercise. Second, it helps teach the importance of attitude flying (set the attitude, check for performance, adjust attitude as required) rather than needle-chasing (especially the VSI), particularly in pitch. Finally, it teaches the feel of about the right amount of "g" to pull during a nose-low unusual attitude recovery (partial panel or otherwise).

 

[EdFred]

Steep turns (excess of 50 degress) are on the ATP PTS and are very very good for goosing you instrument competency. If your scan isn't fast, you simply lose it. IT gets your scan going.

Oh, I had to do em on my IR ride, I think they got rid of em on the next PTS issuance after I did it. They aren't a big deal, really. Well not in a 2200lb plane.

 

[tonycondon]

Oh, I had to do em on my IR ride, I think they got rid of em on the next PTS issuance after I did it. They aren't a big deal, really. Well not in a 2200lb plane.

yea it was recent, my IR had steep turns and slow flight/stalls but by the time I went for CFII they were gone. Personally I liked them, a nice challenge and it kept the skills sharp. too bad that many CFII's probably dont teach them anymore because they arent on the PTS.

 

[EdFred]

yea it was recent, my IR had steep turns and slow flight/stalls but by the time I went for CFII they were gone. Personally I liked them, a nice challenge and it kept the skills sharp. too bad that many CFII's probably dont teach them anymore because they arent on the PTS.

Could be, but I have my dad try and do things that aren't on the PTS either, just to make sure he can handle the plane.

 

[tonycondon]

and im sure he'll thank you for that Ed.

 

[spiderweb]

Thanks for the report, Lance!

 

[t0r0nad0]

Well, something similar happened to me today. I was flying with my mentor in his Bo today and we were on our way back to West Houston (KIWS) from San Marcos (KHYI), letting Otto do the work, and cruising at 3500'. I was on the radio and controls (in case the AP failed), when I looked over at the main AI, it showed that we were in a 20-degree left bank, when we were actually in straight and level flight. I pointed it out to my mentor, so he switched off the AP, took the controls, and did a couple of 30-degree bank turns in each direction to try to shake it loose, but when we returned to level, it still showed us in a bank. Well, he then reset the GNS530 to direct KIWS and switched the AP back on to NAV, and gave me the controls back. I noticed that it turned us to be about 20 degrees right of the actual course on the 530, so I said, "Okay, I'm going to hand-fly this". So, I switched off the autopilot and hand-flew the last 60nm or so back to KIWS.

So, both the main AI and the Autopilot were misbehaving. The wierd thing with the AI was that as we banked or pitched, it indicated the appropriate change in attitude, it was just off by anywhere between 5 and 20 degrees. The backup AI worked great (thus why it is there) .

Lo and behold, another learning experience for PJ.

 

[poadeleted20]

It always helps to understand the relationship between your autopilot and the other flight instruments (mainly AI, DG, and TC). Depending on whether your autopilot uses inputs from the AI (some do, some don't), there may be nothing at all wrong with your autopilot.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Well, something similar happened to me today. I was flying with my mentor in his Bo today and we were on our way back to West Houston (KIWS) from San Marcos (KHYI), letting Otto do the work, and cruising at 3500'. I was on the radio and controls (in case the AP failed), when I looked over at the main AI, it showed that we were in a 20-degree left bank, when we were actually in straight and level flight. I pointed it out to my mentor, so he switched off the AP, took the controls, and did a couple of 30-degree bank turns in each direction to try to shake it loose, but when we returned to level, it still showed us in a bank. Well, he then reset the GNS530 to direct KIWS and switched the AP back on to NAV, and gave me the controls back. I noticed that it turned us to be about 20 degrees right of the actual course on the 530, so I said, "Okay, I'm going to hand-fly this". So, I switched off the autopilot and hand-flew the last 60nm or so back to KIWS.

So, both the main AI and the Autopilot were misbehaving. The wierd thing with the AI was that as we banked or pitched, it indicated the appropriate change in attitude, it was just off by anywhere between 5 and 20 degrees. The backup AI worked great (thus why it is there) .

Lo and behold, another learning experience for PJ.

PJ:

I had the KFC-200 in my A-36 and also have it in the P-Baron. It gets info from both the AI and HSI. If I lose either, no AP (ask me how I know for sure <g>).

Some APs get their info from the turn coordinator. Really helps to know.

Best,

Dave

 

[gismo]

PJ:

I had the KFC-200 in my A-36 and also have it in the P-Baron. It gets info from both the AI and HSI. If I lose either, no AP (ask me how I know for sure <g>).

Some APs get their info from the turn coordinator. Really helps to know.

Best,

Dave

Dave, if you had taken my advice and added roll steering when you did your last avionics upgrade, your autopilot would still function if your HSI died <g>.

 

[rottydaddy]

Steep turns (excess of 50 degress) are on the ATP PTS and are very very good for goosing you instrument competency. If your scan isn't fast, you simply lose it. IT gets your scan going.

It seems crazy that this has been removed from the IFR PTS... first spins for the VFR PTS, now this... is the reasoning that it may be hazardous? Are accident stats the driving force behind this? If so, isn't that the whole point of practicing such things with an instructor in a lesson setting? How are you supposed to do steep turns and slow flight in IMC safely if you've never done so with an instructor's evaluation... or do they think nobody will ever have to do such maneuvers on an IFR flight?
then there's the fact that it's still required for the ATP... doesn't make any sense.

 

[poadeleted20]

It seems crazy that this has been removed from the IFR PTS...

The FAA simply felt that since there is no requirement to do any turns over 30 bank during IFR flight, and no emergency procedure requiring steep turns in instrument conditions, there was no reason to keep that task in the IR PTS.

first spins for the VFR PTS, now this...

Totally different situation. The FAA removed spins from the PPL PTS because the accident data suggested most spins occur where there is insufficient altitude to recover, so spin prevention rather than spin recovery was the important issue.

How are you supposed to do steep turns and slow flight in IMC safely if you've never done so with an instructor's evaluation... or do they think nobody will ever have to do such maneuvers on an IFR flight?

That's the idea. If you have to do a steep turn or slow flight on an IFR flight in IMC, you've already done something wrong and shouldn't be using those techniques to fix it.

then there's the fact that it's still required for the ATP... doesn't make any sense.

I think that's more an issue of total mastery of the aircraft at that level -- flying as PIC on a common carrier flight with paying passengers.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Dave, if you had taken my advice and added roll steering when you did your last avionics upgrade, your autopilot would still function if your HSI died <g>.

Well, if I recall your comments correctly, it was get the GPSS steering; you'll never regret it (or words to that effect). I don't recall any mention of specifics other than it will fly holds. Had you specifically mentioned this, we most certainly would have had a special assessment of the partners to pay for this additional expense

Uhhh, I think we tapped out the PS funds at that point. You most certainly mentioned it was worthwhile.

Best,

Dave

 

[t0r0nad0]

Well, my mentor said that his partner took the Bo out the next day and the AI and AP seemed to be fine. He said that they were toying with the idea of replacing the AI and HSI with solid-state video versions, so now might be the time to do that. Then they can have the existing ones overhauled and sell them.