My Flying Group shutting down

jsstevens

jsstevens

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jsstevens
I've been anticipating this for a few years now, but today it's official. I've belonged to a "flying group" (not a club, since the aircraft are owned by a corporation formed by the two founders) since 2004 when I started pilot training. Today the founders sent out a notice that they are shutting down operations as of the 31st of Jan, 2010.

It's been a great deal for those of us who fly, but has been in decline since 2001. When I joined the group had 11 aircraft: 4 older C-172s, 2 C-172 SP's, 2 Piper Arrows, a Beechcraft C-23 Sundowner, a Piper Lance and a Piper Seminole. Today we have 2 older C-172's, 1 C-172 SP, 1 Arrow and a Grumman Cougar. We've lost two aircraft to flight damage - the Sundowner and one of the C-172 SPs. The rest have been sold to finance further operations. The twin (Cougar) has been up for sale most of 2009 and has been "sold" twice, but the sale fell through.

The prices are phenomenal - I get a C-172N with Garmin 430 for $42.50/tach hour dry. But it couldn't last.

I'll have to look around to see what I can find that I can afford to fly. (Any suggestions in Central Florida would be appreciated.)

This may be the end of my flying for a while - I'll have to see.:nonod:

I have nothing but thanks for the two gentlemen who founded and ran the group for all those years. They spent hundreds of thousands of their own dollars to keep flying affordable for our group - not to mention hundreds of hours every year gratis.

John
 
Could this be an opportunity for you to pick up one of the 172s at a bargain price? It could be a bird in the hand kind of thing for the owners.
 
John perhaps this is an opportunity to get some of the other pilots together to form a new corp and buy one or more of the planes.
 
This deal sounds kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy. :D
 
not nec. - we've got a cherokee 180 in our club (yep, club - even thought the planes are owned by the corp/couple that started it) and our dry cost is $22/hr.

Club's been going for over thirty years. :)
 
etsisk said:
not nec. - we've got a cherokee 180 in our club (yep, club - even thought the planes are owned by the corp/couple that started it) and our dry cost is $22/hr.

Club's been going for over thirty years. :)
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Hate you. No clubs in this area, and the local flight school charges 95$/hr wet for a Cessna 150. :P
 
etsisk said:
not nec. - we've got a cherokee 180 in our club (yep, club - even thought the planes are owned by the corp/couple that started it) and our dry cost is $22/hr.

Club's been going for over thirty years. :)
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Congrats, you're being subsidized. You can't cover insurance and maintenance for that, no less an engine fund.
 
43/hr dry for a 172N seems reasonable if there is some sort of monthly or annual contribution to cover fixed costs -- was there?

(if not, the volume you'd need to cover that rate is pretty high)

We're just starting a flying club here in CA (www.wingfleet.com), and we "think" we have the numbers worked out really well to make it sustainable -- but I'd love to know what contributed to the demise of the club... so far it seems like a win-win.

I've always been curious how a GA7 would hold up under training loads.. never enough to buy one though. :D
 
schmookeeg said:
43/hr dry for a 172N seems reasonable if there is some sort of monthly or annual contribution to cover fixed costs -- was there?

(if not, the volume you'd need to cover that rate is pretty high)

We're just starting a flying club here in CA (www.wingfleet.com), and we "think" we have the numbers worked out really well to make it sustainable -- but I'd love to know what contributed to the demise of the club... so far it seems like a win-win.

I've always been curious how a GA7 would hold up under training loads.. never enough to buy one though. :D
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There was a ~$200 year insurance fee and $42.50/month maintenance fee coupled with 1 flight hour minimum per month (total of $85/month). The flight hours could be banked for up to 3 months then they went away.

As far as I know (I never started multi) the GA-7 held up just fine - better than the Seminole which preceeded it.

I'm not sure what the fixed costs were as we had tie-downs for the aricraft and at least part of a hangar for maintenance. One of the owneres is an IA so he did and/or supervised most of the maintenance. We all filled out an insurance questionaire each year and paid between $180 and $200 for annual insurance. This coverend hull & liability except for the older planes for which the hulls were "self insured".

I think the fixed costs eventually killed it. "People are not flying enough" was the common refrain. When AVgas went to $5+ dollars a gallon that had a big impact as well - people flew less.

John
 
schmookeeg said:
I've always been curious how a GA7 would hold up under training loads..
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The Cougar was designed to be a trainer from the ground up as a clean sheet design by the same Grumman engineers at the Bethpage plant who designed the Grumman carrier jets of that era (A-6 Intruder, F-14 Tomcat, etc). It's as tough as it gets -- just look at the landing gear struts compared to others of its class (Duchess, Seminole, etc) -- they're massively overbuilt. I know of schools which have put over 15,000 training hours on Cougars, and they're still holding up just fine.
 
schmookeeg said:
We're just starting a flying club here in CA (www.wingfleet.com), and we "think" we have the numbers worked out really well to make it sustainable -- but I'd love to know what contributed to the demise of the club... so far it seems like a win-win.
Click to expand...

Your well-equipped Bonanza is $59/hour? Tach Dry I presume? WOW. That's a deal...
 
There is a meeting scheduled for Tuesday (1/12) evening to discuss possible ways forward, including various people buying aircraft, making a smaller club with some of the planes (specifically the 172's) to reduce insurance and maintenance costs. Maybe I can find a way to keep going here. In the mean time I've turned up at least 2 othe clubs in the area. I've got to figure out how much I can spend and how many hours I think I'll really fly.

I did try to go yesterday afternoon and all the planes (that I can fly) were out. I guess knowing that it's going away motivated folks...

John
 
wbarnhill said:
Hate you. No clubs in this area, and the local flight school charges 95$/hr wet for a Cessna 150. :P
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Ouch! $71/month dues and $100/hr wet for a C-182P in our club. $77/hr wet for a 180 hp C-172N with a Garmin 430. The Arrow is about $95/hr wet (IIRC, haven't flown it in a couple of years).
 
We hear the same refrain in my club. I hope it continues to survive. It sure helps having an A&P. Good luck, John!
:blueplane:
ApacheBob
 
steingar said:
Congrats, you're being subsidized. You can't cover insurance and maintenance for that, no less an engine fund.
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That depends on a lot of other factors. On the Mooney I used to fly (a similar "club" with the plane owned by a couple) I had a $35/hr dry rate for long trips, $50/hr dry for "short" trips. Long generally meant more than about 8 hours in a weekend. I also paid something like $110/month that covered my portion of the hangar and insurance.

In the case of the owners, it was more that I was subsidizing their ownership of the plane. The arrangement was fairly sustainable, as my use of the plane made the ownership costs more managable. That money that they weren't spending on insurance and hangar (which are pretty much fixed costs regardless of my flying the plane or not) could be put towards the annual/mx/engine fund.

That's still a great plane. I miss it.
 
Well, one of the Sr. instructors is putting together a smaller club, ~20 folks, with 2 of the C-172's - an old one and a newish one. It'll cost a little more and mostly require more prepaid flying hours - 2 a month, use 'em or not.

I think that's the way I'll go for now - assuming it all comes together.
John
 
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