My (ex) instructor called me and nagged me because..

Sheesh... If he had 45 minutes, He had 150% of required. There are times in the past I wish I had 150% of required.
 
But it was the instructor who indicated 5 gallons left.

My money says it was based on how many gallons went in the tank.

But lets assume it really was 5 usable gallons. That's still shy of the 45 minutes that OP believes he landed with, by 7.5 minutes.

Legal? Sure.
Safe? Marginally.

Over confident? Starting to wonder... after all, the OP is in the fateful first 100 hours.
 
Greebo said:
But it was the instructor who indicated 5 gallons left.

My money says it was based on how many gallons went in the tank.

But lets assume it really was 5 usable gallons. That's still shy of the 45 minutes that OP believes he landed with, by 7.5 minutes.

Legal? Sure.
Safe? Marginally.

Over confident? Starting to wonder... after all, the OP is in the fateful first 100 hours.
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Well I don't know how much fuel his airplane burns. I'm just going by what he said. That said, 30 minutes is planning only. You can fly into your reserve fuel. I'm not advocating skimping on fuel, but I will say this... It's not often the airliner you take on vacation has double the required reserves.
 
Look, all I'm saying is, the OP is an admittedly new and inexperienced pilot and running even CLOSE to light on fuel is a very very bad habit to get into.

I'd rather the OP feel embarrassed, self conscious, etc and NEVER fly that light on fuel again than say, 'Nah you're fine' and brush it off. We all know weather doesn't exactly always go as plans. What if the winds went against him by a mere few more miles an hour than predicted on that "nearly burned all my fuel" leg of his trip?
 
Greebo said:
But it was the instructor who indicated 5 gallons left.

My money says it was based on how many gallons went in the tank.

But lets assume it really was 5 usable gallons. That's still shy of the 45 minutes that OP believes he landed with, by 7.5 minutes.

Legal? Sure.
Safe? Marginally.

Over confident? Starting to wonder... after all, the OP is in the fateful first 100 hours.
Click to expand...

Who has a discussion about fuel remaining and would include unusable fuel? The discussion revolves around how much flying time is left, and since you get 0 flying time from unusable fuel, it is safe to assume it was 5 usable gallons usable.

I don't think he was overconfident. Looked like he made a reasonable decision based on the conditions., no luck involved.
 
Greebo said:
Look, all I'm saying is, the OP is an admittedly new and inexperienced pilot and running even CLOSE to light on fuel is a very very bad habit to get into.

I'd rather the OP feel embarrassed, self conscious, etc and NEVER fly that light on fuel again than say, 'Nah you're fine' and brush it off. We all know weather doesn't exactly always go as plans. What if the winds went against him by a mere few more miles an hour than predicted on that "nearly burned all my fuel" leg of his trip?
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No one can offer a logical reason why, under the conditions described by the OP, his decision was bad. We are discussing the conditions and pilot actions of the OP, correct?
 
I wonder if the OP ran LOP....if that could have added an extra 3-4 gallons? :idea::popcorn::ohsnap:
 
vintage cessna said:
No one can offer a logical reason why, under the conditions described by the OP, his decision was bad. We are discussing the conditions and pilot actions of the OP, correct?
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The real discussion should be why his 'ex' CFI is snooping into his current flights. He was PIC on the flight, not the CFI. If/when the CFI gets a job with the FAA, maybe it will matter more at that point.
 
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Greebo said:
But it was the instructor who indicated 5 gallons left.

My money says it was based on how many gallons went in the tank.
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The most obvious way for an FBO employee to ascertain how much fuel was left would be to see how much was added to refill the tanks, and subtract that from the usable capacity of the tanks.
 
LoxaBagels said:
The real discussion should be why his 'ex' CFI is snooping into his current flights. He was PIC on the flight, not the CFI. If/when the CFI gets a job with the FAA, maybe it will matter more at that point.
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Well, one reasonable scenario is that the fuel truck topped it off and the FBO noticed that it was an awful lot of fuel, and called his instructor.

After all, it is NOT the OP's airplane. It's a rental. This makes it more than just the OP's business.
 
vintage cessna said:
No one can offer a logical reason why
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I think you mean "You disagree with the other opinions", which is a very different condition than what you put forth.

If some of us are concerned that flying that close to the reserve is a marginal decision and potentially a precursor to a bad habit, then it's perfectly logical for us to discourage it.
 
Greebo said:
I think you mean "You disagree with the other opinions", which is a very different condition than what you put forth.

If some of us are concerned that flying that close to the reserve is a marginal decision and potentially a precursor to a bad habit, then it's perfectly logical for us to discourage it.
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What good is an opinion that is not based on the facts at hand? The OP detailed what he did . I don't see anything he did that could lead to a bad habit .

Show something real, other than a feeling, that indicates a flaw in his decision making process.

If you want a 1 hour or better reserve regardless of the circumstances, that is your decision. Hard to criticize someone who had more than the required reserve and nothing remotely possible in the scenario that would have lead to an off airport landing.
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

MarcoDA40 said:
Am I in the wrong?
Is it okay for him to call me and essentially B*%ch me out?
In the other hand, I understand his concern but maybe approach me different?
I still think I didnt make a "wrong decision" but please chime in..

:dunno:

Edit: I started changing the subject and we had a 30 minute conversation about flying and his new students, etc..
I'm not mad at him, but I just felt like he was giving me a hard time without knowing all of the facts.

Once again, if I am wrong, I am wrong :dunno:
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If you get comfortable landing with 5 gallons left, you will someday run into an unforeseen circumstance and will run it empty. I know from personal experience.
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

geneseib said:
If you get comfortable landing with 5 gallons left, you will someday run into an unforeseen circumstance and will run it empty. I know from personal experience.
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Depends on how one thinks , doesn't it? Some people may get comfortable, others may apply critical thinking to each situation.

Judging from what the OP has said, he impresses me as the latter. If I could find some flaw in his reasoning, I would join the camp of " don't push your luck " .
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

geneseib said:
If you get comfortable landing with 5 gallons left, you will someday run into an unforeseen circumstance and will run it empty. I know from personal experience.
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The OP played by the rules and did nothing wrong. If the speed limit on the highway is 70, and someone is doing 65, do we say they are driving dangerously?
 
Re: My instructor nagged me because..

geneseib said:
If you get comfortable landing with 5 gallons left, you will someday run into an unforeseen circumstance and will run it empty. I know from personal experience.
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5 gallons left in a 20gph airplane is a lot different than 5 gallons left in an 8gph airplane.

What about airplanes that only have 12 gallon tanks and burn 3gph? Is that still an issue?
 
MikeELP said:
Maybe the CFI had a flight the next morning in the same airplane and noticed how much fuel it took? :rolleyes:
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Maybe. So he either calls for fuel, or goes to self-serve and puts it in.
 
EdFred said:
Correct. Only to PLAN on having fuel in the tanks.
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Specifically, it just says "No person may begin a flight" unless they have enough fuel to get to the destination and then to fly for 30 (or 45) minutes. You're free to dip into your reserves for any reason. It behooves you to at least retain enough fuel to get to SOME destination.
 
LoxaBagels said:
Maybe. So he either calls for fuel, or goes to self-serve and puts it in.
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With wet rentals, he probably saw what the plane was topped with after the flight.

As pointed out, six gallons is cutting it slim in my plane (it's right at 30 minutes at a reasonably leaned cruise). Six gallons in a DA40 is a lot of fuel. My friend who used to be a 747 captain and is now flying barbiejets points out his entire grossweight now is less than the emergency fuel load on the 747.
 
I was kind of prepared to be difficult with the OP because I initially thought he was being a little pushing of the envelope. My biggest issue was landing with 5 gallons on an 8 gph plane. Personally...I do think that's pushing on unwise at <100 hrs esp. With a rental and potentially less familiarity with the plane. And because he said 8 gph I figured he was flying a da40 leaned out, instead of the da20 mentioned earlier. (It's my suspicious nature)

But looking up the distance from the two airports I think it's safe to accept that he was flying a da20. A properly leaned da-20 is closer to a 6 gph fuel burn not 8... As mentioned it also only has .5 g of unusable fuel... I'm not too troubled by 4.5 gallons in a 6 gph plane... Little closer then what I would put my family in, but within bounds of acceptable...just my take.

I do think if the OP was burning 8 gph in a da20... I guess you're flying low near full rich...just remember to get the air conditioning working (and better economy too) is to climb some...

Remember also even if you're cutting it "closer" you can still do somethings to improve your fuel margin, climbing can be one of those things, depending on winds aloft of course.
 
The FBO I rent at requires 1.5 hours of reserve!
For a Cessna 172, 12 gallons seems a little much.
 
SkyHog said:
Your instructor is an idiot and he does not belong in the sky if 45 minutes of reserve caused him to be so concerned that he had to call you and project his ineptness onto you.
Click to expand...

I think his instructor is training students not to be a statistic. This instructor also has a bunch of dual with the OP and knows any quirks that may be present.

Zeldman said:
Wow.... landing with legal fuel and everyone goes ballistic....almost.
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I fly my own plane and have a fuel totalizer that is accurate to .5 gallon on long 4+ hour XC flights. My experience:

1. Prior to changing my mags after a failure, before they indicated problems and were still OK on run up, I noticed an increased fuel burn by .5 to .75 gallons per hour.
2. The C-152 Sparrowhawk I trained in was SUPPOSED to burn 6 gallons per hour. I lean agressively and found that it was actually 7 gallons per hour.

Things wear out and fuel burns are going to increase. Winds aloft are never near correct. I have a totalizer and can carry 51 gallons burning about 8.5 in cruise. Now that I own a plane my flights are true XC flights with several requiring HUGE deviations for weather ... not a problem with my fuel load, burn rate and calculating I have never landed this AC with less than an hour of fuel.
 
Greebo said:
...What if the winds went against him by a mere few more miles an hour than predicted on that "nearly burned all my fuel" leg of his trip?
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Pilots should be updating their ETA as they go along, so that they can stop somewhere closer and refuel if need be.
 
Palmpilot said:
Pilots should be updating their ETA as they go along, so that they can stop somewhere closer and refuel if need be.
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And I believe OP already stated he didn't want to stop cause he didn't want to fly at night, so now we have fuel levels getting close to the margin AND get-there-itis induced by not wanting to fly in the dark/dusk.
 
vintage cessna said:
What good is an opinion that is not based on the facts at hand? The OP detailed what he did . I don't see anything he did that could lead to a bad habit .
Click to expand...

And I do. Here we have a differing of opinions.

By definition, opinions aren't about facts. Nobody's disputing the facts here.
 
Someone may have already said this.

If the (ex) instructor did not care about you, he would not have made the phone call.
 
Greebo said:
I'm a little confused here. OP said he was burning 8gph and landed with 5 left. If .5 of that was unusable that's 4.5 usable.

But 45 minutes is 3/4 of an hour and 3/4 of 8 is 6, so he'd need 6.5 of total fuel to have 6 usable and thus have a 45 minute reserve.

My math says he had 33.75m reserve.
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And all they know is they put "USABLE FUEL - 5 gallons" into the tank on top off. It's quite possible on a lot of aircraft to overfill the tanks. There may indeed have been more than 5 gallons usable there.
 
I think you cut it too close. I have Dakota (L/R tanks, 12gph). Last week when returning home from a breakfast, I had 18 gal in one tank and 9 in the other for a one hour and 15 minute flight. The forecast was for rain and thunderstorms about an hour after my planned arrival. I like to have an hour in one tank on landing and don't want to run a tank dry. I added 20 gallons. Fuel left behind is useless.
 
Most here are judging the OP against their personal minimum. You really should be judging him against the set standard. If his personal reserve minimum is less than yours, but still at or above the set standard, he did nothing wrong.
 
Kritchlow said:
Most here are judging the OP against their personal minimum. You really should be judging him against the set standard. If his personal reserve minimum is less than yours, but still at or above the set standard, he did nothing wrong.
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I agree with this.

I got a similar call once after the flight school pumped 36 gallons into the 172 that held 38 gallons usable. That almost sucked. :eek:
 
My only concern with the situation was the get there it is. That's what kills pilots, and pax, regarding fuel issues. If there were places to land within 10-40min earlier than the destination and he recognized he may need a quick fuel stop then that not so bad. If he was blindly flying along ~45min from becoming a glider with no plan, like when L tank goes dry I land immediately, than to me that's what will kill. Always have an out. At least 1 preferably 5 or more... :)

Chalk it up to experience and move on.
 
Auburn2002 said:
I agree with this.

I got a similar call once after the flight school pumped 36 gallons into the 172 that held 38 gallons usable. That almost sucked. :eek:
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Oops. Well I guess someone must a stole some fuel from me....:D
 
35B33 said:
Your instructor cared enough to ask about the situation or the office beat him up about his 'risky' ex student. If he took a more gentle approach - how was the flight, tell me about the return, etc., you would be telling us about this great instructor caring about former students.

If one of my students, or low time ex, came back just above min fuel I too would wonder if it was luck or great instruction :).
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I would never put my life and pax lifes on a "I hope I'm lucky and make it there". I planned my flight, burned the fuel I expected to burn. Got there on time. More than just great instruction, it was thorough planning.

LoxaBagels said:
Who was PIC on the flight? You or your old CFI?
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I've not seen my old CFI in 3+ months. I was PIC

vintage cessna said:
Do you now think your decision was wrong? Given the facts you presented, what was wrong with your decision?
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Actually, thinking more about it, no.. I wouldn't change anything about the flight if I had to do it again with identical circumstances.

Mike5250 said:
If your plans showed landing with 5 gallons it isn't an issue. With the da20 or c150 you do need to be conservative because you can't switch tanks once you run dry. Landing with 5 gallons remaining did feel different at first, compared to landing with 10-15 in a c172 or c182 which is pretty much the same thing.

Do they have a fuel stick for the da20 you fly or do you top off before each flight?
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I use a fuel stick, but I top off everywhere I go.. and by top off I mean TOP OFF! Fuel in the down-stem of the fuel tank..

vintage cessna said:
What realistic scenarios has anyone presented that makes you doubt your decision making process?
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none :dunno:

asicer said:
Does the FBO have any operating rules regarding fuel minimums? I know some rental outfits recommend landing with a 1 hour minimum and others require it in their rental agreement.
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They do not

Henning said:
You were fine as long as that's all usable fuel.
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And it was :wink2:

Stingray Don said:
30 min reserve is not something I would do but it is your call as PIC. After all you are the boss, head man, top dog, big cheese, head honcho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yC4gm_vN3s
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Funny, never watched the movie... Fiancee and I have movie date night tonight and she picked "airplane"! :D:D

Palmpilot said:
Pilots should be updating their ETA as they go along, so that they can stop somewhere closer and refuel if need be.
Click to expand...

flyingron said:
And all they know is they put "USABLE FUEL - 5 gallons" into the tank on top off. It's quite possible on a lot of aircraft to overfill the tanks. There may indeed have been more than 5 gallons usable there.
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As I said, when they top me off, there is fuel in the down-stem which is close to a gallon.

Bobanna said:
+1. Thank him for the thoughtful attention he gave you. My bet is that you have been taught something that you'll think about on every flight you take from now on. Aviators (generally) like to do things right, and a pilot's response to someone's ( esp. CFI) disapproval tells a lot about the pilot's mettle. Forget the "hurt feelings;" you are now imprinted with an important lesson (or, at least a critical consideration). Blessings
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I truly do appreciate his advice :yes:

Kritchlow said:
Most here are judging the OP against their personal minimum. You really should be judging him against the set standard. If his personal reserve minimum is less than yours, but still at or above the set standard, he did nothing wrong.
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Thank you! I felt as if I was being chewed out based on his personal minimums

ChemGuy said:
My only concern with the situation was the get there it is. That's what kills pilots, and pax, regarding fuel issues. If there were places to land within 10-40min earlier than the destination and he recognized he may need a quick fuel stop then that not so bad. If he was blindly flying along ~45min from becoming a glider with no plan, like when L tank goes dry I land immediately, than to me that's what will kill. Always have an out. At least 1 preferably 5 or more... :)

Chalk it up to experience and move on.
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Thank you sir. Everytime I fly by an airfield, I locate the next closest airfield, come up with an ETA, download the airport charts/ A/FD (If I dont have them already) and look at the weather for that specific airport.


When I'm flying, I'm doing just that.. flying. I'm not yawning/half asleep, poking my belly button just waiting for my destination airport to pop up.
I'm CONSTANTLY checking engine instruments, any deviations from my pre-planned ETE time, looking at charts for airports nearby etc. It keeps me entertained and informed. I usually contact Flight Watch as soon as I depart, and halfway through my flight as well..
 
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Meh...you were legal and it sounds like you knew what was going on. I wouldn't sweat it too much. That being said, unless I'm in a plane with an accurate (and properly set) fuel computer/totalizer, I generally try to keep my reserves for XC flights at least one hour since my only means for determining fuel remaining is elapsed time otherwise...Just some food for thought.
 
5 gallons is enough to be legal. It's probably shaving it a bit close. The airplane I took my private in was totaled when the IFR rated pilot tried to land with 45 minutes on board and was wrong. It was based at Sanford too, at the south end of the field.

I wouldn't sweat the instructor's delivery. If your instructor was a bit harsh, it was probably because he's seen it happen and doesn't want it to be you.

You departed at 6:30, which would have put back in Sanford at 9-ish, right around sunset. 45 minutes is required at night. You were right at the limit, possible under the limit. 5/8 = 38 minutes of flying time.

It's not about your comfort.
 
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