My Discovery Flight, and a bazillion questions.

[Dry Creek]

NOTE – this is a long missive. If you’re easily bored, you may want to skip this thread.


I wanted to share my experience with my Discovery Flight on 02/11/2022.

This is the first experience I had ever had with General Aviation aircraft. I’d never even laid a hand on one before, much less be able to physically touch one and operate controls. The closest I had come to the GA experience was getting to fly commercially in those wonderful little Jetstream Super 31's and Shorts 360's in the 90's.


I had already taken my written test in December (self-studied) and just finished up my third-class aviation medical on January 28th. I was getting antsy, and I was ready to get into the air. I had made an appointment with the CFI I’d chosen based on a coworker's recommendation, and the fact that he was within 35 miles of my home. Well, the first date we had to cancel due to the ice storm that had moved in and shut down KSEP. We made another date for Friday, February 11th. I received a text from him the Thursday before, letting me know that his plane was still in annual, so canceled again. Determined that I would get a flight in this weekend, I booked with a flight school that was about 50 miles from my home. They had better rates than the ones offered at KGDJ and KCPT. They had a half-hour flight for $99, and the one-hour for $199. At the insistence of my wife, I opted for the one-hour flight. I called and was able to get an appointment for that afternoon. I was happy, and excited. I made sure to explain my situation, and filled them in with where I stood in the process. I asked if they could approve my Student Pilot Certificate application, and they agreed to do that. I’m glad I mentioned it, because they informed me that I would need to bring my passport or BC along. I just naturally figured that my Texas DL with the little gold star (Real ID) would suffice. Well, it seems the FAA doesn’t recognize that as proof of citizenship.


I am wondering if my complete honesty with them and letting them know this was really just a one-night-stand colored the experience somewhat. First, let me say that I think I really enjoyed finally getting up there and flying. Just as I had suspected, it soon became clear to me that my simulator controls were not very accurate when it comes to the feel and feedback from the real deal. Even though it was windy and conditions were “bumpy” at first, I didn’t have any issues. Before the flight I had requested that we do some maneuvers to see how I would react. I asked for clean/configured power-off stalls, and a power-on stall. Along with steep banks (60) and a couple more fun things the CFI threw in for good measure, I had determined that I wouldn’t suffer from motion sickness or any panic. That part of the experience was good, and enjoyable.


Now I guess it’s time for listing the things that didn’t go so well. There were several things that happened that really bugged me. First, there was the major distraction of a large brush fire that had ignited right as we drove up to the FBO. The construction of new hangars was the direct contributor to the fire. Anyway, the fire caused the closure of the runway as it was being used by the fire department for access. The fire was threatening the hangars on the east side of the field, and was also moving towards the residential part of the development. It had the full attention of my CFI, even though there was little he could do to affect any outcome. This set back our departure by an hour, and had pretty much disturbed the focus of all involved. This is where things started going wrong, in my opinion.

Safety. The biggest issue to me was my fault, and I accept full responsibility for that. It is hard for me to admit, but I fell into a trap that I know is so easy to get caught in. I fell into the “student trap”. My line of work is in power generation, nuclear. As a certified instructor, On the Job Trainer (OJT) and Evaluator (OJE), one thing I tell my trainees is that the instructor is not infallible. The training environment is not guaranteed to be in a safe condition either – since we train with plant equipment. The one catchphrase we often repeat and are expected to exercise is to have a Questioning Attitude. If it doesn’t look right, or if you feel that something is “off”, ask questions. Get input from others, satisfy yourself that the issue is resolved. I failed to practice as I preach. While the CFI was distracted by the firefighting activities, he pointed to the plane and said “why don’t you go ahead and knock out the preflight checks inside the cabin”. So, I dutifully dug around in the side pocket and found one the checklists, and went to town. One thing that struck me as odd, very odd, was that the magneto switch seemed to be in the “BOTH” position. I thought that couldn’t be right, there isn’t a key in the switch. It works like a car, right? Maybe it’s just mounted differently. Or it’s just different. This plane belongs to a flight school. There’s just no way that an instructor doesn’t check after a student or anybody else has used the plane. Right? So, I had convinced myself right then and there that it was not an issue. It wasn’t until the field had reopened and the CFI was inside that he discovered he needed to jump out, head back into the FBO office and grab the keys. When he tried to insert them he noticed that it was in BOTH after reaching across and fumbling to get the keys in. It was then that he mentioned aloud that someone had left the switch on. He didn’t seem phased at all by that, but I certainly was. Not five minutes before that we had our hands all over the propeller as he was showing me which nick needed to be filed, and which one had already been smoothed out. In my line of work, at that very moment when an obvious safety violation had been identified, we would call a Safety Time Out (or stand down) and identify where our protocol had failed. No blame, but corrective measures had to be identified. That really, really bugged me, and kept me up that night. Well, that and a few more things.


One more thing that I thought was odd, and I decided not to debate the CFI on was shoulder restraints. As we were preparing to taxi out, I asked about the shoulder belt. He stated that it wasn’t necessary, but if I felt like I wanted to wear it there was no problem with that. Maybe I don’t fully understand FAR 91.015 (b).


Checklists. Again, in my line of work, we are procedure-driven. I am habit bound to always use a checklist when available. This CFI did not. For the outside preflight I don’t recall him really referring to them. I had the one I’d found on my kneeboard, and he had one beside him that he held in his hand, but didn’t follow rigidly – although every now and then he would glance at it. Sort of. That only bugged me on the minor side of the scale. I know that I would always use one, although others feel that they can perform all of those tasks by rote memory. When we got to the check for the navigation lights and collision avoidance lights, he mumbled that we didn’t need to do those checks since the plane had already been flown once that morning. It had, as I later verified by flight tracking websites. I was a little uncomfortable with that.


Flow. I never heard any “flow” verbalized. I was expecting “Lights, Camera. Action” to verify proper lights, squawk code, and trim/flaps set. There was no verbalized “flow” after landing and clearing the runway.


Clearing. When we had finished the climb out, we prepared for some maneuvers. The CFI paired his phone with the ADS-B in, and cleared that way. No visual clearing turns. I asked if all aircraft here had ADS-B, and he said, “yeah, for the most part, you gotta have it”. I did a visual scan as best I could, from over left shoulder, ducked to over the right. I thought that was unusual. Another thing that just bubbled there in the back of my head, as I visualized the Luscombe that the flight school out of KGDJ uses being up and around at the same time we are practicing stalls.


Good practice – carb heat? Another one of those things that didn’t mesh with what I had learned so far – granted, only book learning – was the carb heat issue. One of the first things the CFI did was to demonstrate the stability of the C-172 and glide capability. So, once we reached cruise altitude, he trimmed full up and went to flight idle. As predicted, we hit a comfortable best glide speed and had zero control issues. I asked if we shouldn’t use carb heat, or periodically clear the engine (increase rpms, then back to idle). He said, no, it’s not cold enough outside for that. It was about 68 degrees F, as indicated on the OAT above my head. It was hazy. But, at altitude the jets weren’t leaving much contrail, and there were no clouds to be seen. Again, this is something I read so much about, and then to see an entirely different action by the CFI. On base leg I again asked about the carb heat, and was told it wasn’t needed. He did, quite helpfully, assure me that the 182 was a real ice-maker, and needed carb heat. OK, maybe I read more into this than I should have, but I did see TWO questions on my written test, and 50 to 70 degrees F seemed to be the common thread. I just don’t know.


Finally, as I was departing, I asked him if he had any specific advice for me. He repeated the same thing he had generically mentioned on the flight: “don’t overthink things, students always tend to overthink”. Mmmm, okay. Thanks. I was hoping he’d mention how at first I was working the yoke too much trying to fight the turbulence. Or how I had inadvertently reduced throttle on the climb out while watching airspeed like a hawk – instead of trimming for speed. Of course he wouldn’t have known about me pulling rpms if I hadn’t confessed.


Am I really overthinking flight training? Have I jaded myself by setting too high expectations for myself as well as a CFI? I really did lie awake trying to sort through all of this. Just so many little things (and the one BIG thing) that nagged me. I guess that I should just “loosen up” and enjoy the ride.


I welcome all insight on this. I try to set high goals for myself, and tend to expect similar from others, especially someone who is training me.

 

[murphey]

Find another CFI that uses checklists and pays attention to safety. Far too many CFIs become complacent because they fly the airplane so often its second nature. But, for a first flight, no, for a new student pilot, that’s unacceptable. If the CFI has the same inattention to details on the next lesson….

You are the customer.
If you believe safety is compromised, tell the CFI to RTB, contact the chief CFI and get a new instructor.
If you feel the CFI isn’t paying attention to you, repeat.
If you feel you are not getting your moneys worth, repeat.

 

[SkyChaser]

I'd never flown or touched a GA plane until I took my first discovery flight, too! I know you mentioned in the other thread that you wanted opinions from a CFI, but here are my thoughts from a lowly private pilot:

1. That big safety issue you mentioned. I don't know how other places do it, but for my very first preflight, I just followed my instructor around and watched while he did the preflight. The next time, he gave me the checklist and watched me do it. The third time was the first time I did it unsupervised, and the CFI did a quick preflight before he got in. When I switched instructors, she watched my first one and then would just ask questions that I'd have had to do the preflight to know the answers to. I say all that to say I think having a brand new student do the preflight by themselves is in itself a safety issue and a very bad idea. I'm thinking you were worried about knowing the prop was "live" when you were touching it. If all you are doing is inspecting the prop for nicks, and gently running your fingers along the edge, you were okay. I *would not* recommend such a practice, but if you've ever seen a video of someone hand-propping a plane, you know that it takes some effort and force to get that prop to turn, even with the magnetos on. I understand your "freak-out", though. I never, ever would dream of touching a prop with the magnetos on because it's just one more thing that could go wrong. Same thing with the shoulder belts.

2. Checklists. Checking all the equipment is very important to me, and I use the checklist every single time. Between getting in the plane and taking off, there's a lot to remember, and I would not want to trust that all to my sometimes faulty memory. It is "personal preference", but for a CFI with a new student, I'd be looking for good checklist discipline.

3. "Flows". I used these almost exclusively right before takeoff and while prepping for maneuvers or landing. I do them verbally, but I don't know that they have to be done that way. Basically, these were my "memory checklists".

4. Clearing. That is such bad practice. "It didn't show up on my tablet" is not a usable defense after a mid-air collision, and VFR means eyes outside and actually visually referencing things. You should be doing 90* clearing turns before maneuvers, and the lack of turns before a maneuver is grounds for checkride failure.

5. Carb heat. In a 172 with carb heat, according to the POH, it needs to be on for landing at the very least. There are some newer 172s without carb heat, but I am guessing you weren't in one of those if you were asking if carb heat was necessary! Turning it on was part of the pre-maneuver checklist before stalls, slow flight, etc. when I was flying in the 172, but it was also winter in the upper Midwest.

After writing that all out, I would second murphey's simpler response. Work out the scheduling issues with the CFI your coworker recommended or find someone else, because the CFI you flew with would suck to train with, and I would not trust the quality of instruction you would receive from an instructor like that. The person you learn to fly from literally has your life in his hands, present and future. I would not be willing to accept sub-par instruction, and to me, that flight reeked of sub-par instruction before, during and after.

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

I believe 91.107 is what you were looking for with regard to seat belts.

With regard to the rest, no, you're not overthinking, you just need to find the right CFI that matches your expectations, as this one clearly did not. I assure you we're out there. Everything you mentioned is something I make sure to do with my students, especially Lights, Camera, Action and a few other flows. The checklist one I wouldn't be too worried about if it was obvious they were doing a flow of some sort, or verbalizing it, but it sounds like this CFI was doing neither. The magneto bit is a pretty big red flag for me, though, beyond everything else. I'd be looking for another flight school.

 

[mandm]

Wow you jumped the gun on the written and medical. It’s really up to you if you keep your CFI or find another one, there’s many factors. Each CFI will have their own style. In a discovery flight, maybe the instructor wouldn’t give you a checklist but it’s still something that you can pull out and go through. Maybe give him one more shot and see how it goes. But if there is another CFI try him/her too, I think it’s good to learn from different people.

 

[RingLaserGyroSandwich]

I've noticed multiple instructors (between this story, personal experience, and elsewhere) advise the student not to "overthink it" and I really don't understand what that even means. It seems like a poor step for an instructor to take.

 

[SkyChaser]

Wow you jumped the gun on the written and medical. It’s really up to you if you keep your CFI or find another one, there’s many factors. Each CFI will have their own style. In a discovery flight, maybe the instructor wouldn’t give you a checklist but it’s still something that you can pull out and go through. Maybe give him one more shot and see how it goes. But if there is another CFI try him/her too, I think it’s good to learn from different people.

I wouldn't say he "jumped the gun" in regards to medical and written. I basically did the same thing. Different ways to get to the same exact end result.

I would not recommend he give this instructor another shot, because he's not learning anything except what not to do, and he's not at the point where that sort of knowledge helps at all. If the instructor gives a brand new student the instructions to do a preflight and doesn't help him at all, I don't even want to think about the other things this instructor could assume he already knows how to do.

 

[dmspilot]

While the CFI was distracted by the firefighting activities, he pointed to the plane and said “why don’t you go ahead and knock out the preflight checks inside the cabin”.

Uh, yeah. Often POA is too quick to suggest a new instructor, but sometimes it is warranted. Telling someone to do something that they do not know how to do is not a legitimate instructional method.

I never heard any “flow” verbalized. I was expecting “Lights, Camera. Action” to verify proper lights, squawk code, and trim/flaps set. There was no verbalized “flow” after landing and clearing the runway.

Somehow I've taught dozens of people how to fly without uttering that stupid phrase. Yes you are over thinking things, a lot. But if what I quoted above about the preflight is what happened, that is inexcusable. I'm dumbfounded. Next.

 

[Ashlyn Maria]

Ouch @Dry Creek. I'm sorry your discovery flight had to be that way. I would definitely agree with the consensus here. That instructor is not worth his salt. It's really important to make habits of safety from the very beginning of training. An instructor who doesn't encourage and foster that environment isn't going to help you.
I felt very vulnerable on my first flight. I didn't know what to expect. I was pretty dumb about airplanes and tense about flying. The instructor who took me on my discovery flight spent close to 20 mins walking me around the airplane, talking through preflight and telling me why we check each exterior surface, etc. When we got in, he went down the checklist with me, but he also showed me his flow. He didn't let me do much of anything during the flight besides "fly straight and level" and turns(aileron only, I realize now he was on the rudder) But he made it fun and I felt absolutely safe with him. We did the downtown tour over KPDX and I got to hear him talk to ATC. I thought he was awesome, haha. I walked out of that experience absolutely thrilled with the joy of going on wings. Here's wishing you find an instructor who will give you good vibes about your learning environment, Dry Creek. Don't settle for less.

Sent from my SM-A515U using Tapatalk

 

[Salty]

I’m going to give you a different perspective than most here will, though I do not disagree at all with them.

I think you are overthinking things, but I think you’re mostly right in what you are over thinking. I don’t think your instructor is necessarily a bad one, but he *might* not be the one for you, and I will explain why I think that. I was also “over prepared” when I began training and I think it gave my instructors a bad impression that I knew more than I did. I had a lot of knowledge that was theoretical, not practical, but I could talk like I knew what I was talking about. I repeatedly told them to assume I know nothing, but they often assumed I understood topics well because I demonstrated understanding of topics they hadn’t covered yet (as it sounds like you definitely are also doing). I was eager to demonstrate the knowledge I did have, but it clouded their ability to see the gaps in my knowledge, which of course I did not know what those gaps were, so I didn’t know what I was missing, but just as you describe, I knew something was missing.

I muddled through anyway, knowing I wasn’t getting the best education, but I continued to seek instruction even after I passed my checkride (from both professional instructors and non-instructors with lots of experience), and as I expanded my network in GA, I found people better able to fill in those gaps. I could have taken an extra year to get my license by searching for the perfect instructor in a field I really knew nothing about, but personally, I chose to do the best I could with what I had available to me, and I think it has worked out great in the end.

So, I’m giving you no advice on what to do with your instructor, just a different way of looking at the decision you have to make.

 

[kath]

I'll also provide a dissenting opinion from my esteemed colleagues, just to give you something to think about:

We know from your previous posts here that you come from a background where perfection is expected, procedures are followed to the letter, and there is zero tolerance for errors. And that you hold yourself to high standards and expect the same high standards of others. When you say this, I absolutely believe it.

So consider a typical instructor taking a new student for a Discovery Flight. Imagine the position the instructor is in, what he is expecting from the day out with you. Most Discovery Flight students have never heard of FAR's, let alone already passed the written. Most Discovery Flight students haven't already formed a thousand opinions about the way flying ought to be done -- as you have*. Most Discovery Flight students don't know what a stall is, and those that do, many won't want to do one on the very first lesson. For most Discovery Flight students, the experience is a relatively simple trip out to the practice area, try some turns and climbs and descents and some very easy stuff, and return; of those who get a more meaty experience (as you were clearly given), most find themselves overwhelmed.

*I'm not saying that your opinions are misguided, or your perspective on safety is wrong in any way. By no means! I totally agree that preflight and checklist usage and clearing turns and all that stuff is important, and I'm not going to disagree about any of that.

But we are only getting your side of the story. I imagine your instructor probably went home telling a story of his own, about a student like no other he's ever had. Part of what CFI's try to do on the first flight is try to figure out your "vibe" -- maybe he was having trouble with this. Maybe you weren't what he expected; you perplexed him. A heretofore-unknown personality type.

Or, maybe you were asking too much of him -- for all the maneuvers, ALL of them, we've only got an hour, but let's do it ALL! You strike me as the type of person who might be very insistent about things, when I (as an instructor) would rather spend my brain power on other things, like maybe that brush fire. You don't know what was going on in his head. Maybe he was busy with something else more important than talking about ADS-B regs. Maybe he does his "flow" silently in his head.

Or, maybe he was observing you exhibiting signs of "brain-fry-itude", which is something that happens often with new students, especially on an intense first day. So he was attempting to simplify, to un-complicate, for you. Save the whole carb heat discussion for later, for instance.

Or, maybe he's a crap instructor.

Maybe. Maybe.

We weren't there. We just can't know.

I am wondering if my complete honesty with them and letting them know this was really just a one-night-stand colored the experience somewhat.

No. Don't sweat it. Shopping around for schools or for instructors is totally normal.

In my line of work, at that very moment when an obvious safety violation had been identified, we would call a Safety Time Out (or stand down) and identify where our protocol had failed.

Again, being safety conscious is crucial... but if you can't tolerate flubbing a radio call, occasionally brain-farting east vs. west, tuning a wrong frequency, violating some minor FAR or other, drifting off altitude, or any other of a nearly-limitless host of brain farts and minor things that can be screwed up, then you will drive yourself crazy. The sky (and the tower and the TRACON etc) is full of humans. The countless little screwups of which nothing comes (yours and other peoples' both): learn to notice them and learn from them -- yes, absolutely! -- but don't let them haunt your dreams.

shoulder restraints

Sometimes they can interfere with your ability to reach for things on the floor, such as the fuel selection/shutoff valve on a 152/172. So some people choose to not use them on the ground.

Good practice – carb heat?

My husband and I have a legitimate dispute about the use of carb heat in the 172. I'll spare you the details, just know that such disputes exist.

Finally, as I was departing, I asked him if he had any specific advice for me. He repeated the same thing he had generically mentioned on the flight: “don’t overthink things, students always tend to overthink”. Mmmm, okay. Thanks.

I'm with your instructor on this one. Again, I don't know you at all; I base this on how and what you have posted here in the past and my "educator's intuition".

Am I really overthinking flight training? Have I jaded myself by setting too high expectations for myself as well as a CFI? I really did lie awake trying to sort through all of this. Just so many little things (and the one BIG thing) that nagged me. I guess that I should just “loosen up” and enjoy the ride.

I vote yes.

My advice is to shop for another instructor. It's completely normal, and everyone will understand. There are many different kinds of students. There are many different kinds of CFI's. It's about finding a good match, and good communication. You may discover that finding that match is harder for you than for the typical student. So be patient.

You're doing fine.

 

[Salty]

One thing I didn't mention in my previous post. I credit POA a lot for filling in my gaps. Not because I learned anything about aviation here, frankly learning off random guy on the internet is a dangerous thing, although I have learned things here. But what I've really gotten out of POA is learning about gaps I had. I may not have filled the gaps here per se, but topics discussed here made me think about a topic I may have never thought about had I not read it here, which resulted in me doing further learning to fill that gap.

So a big thank you to all that participate here, even to the guys I heartily disagree with on topics, you make me think, and that's a good thing!

 

[mandm]

Great post @kath , the OP may need something more structured like a part 141 school. To the OP, remember that most CFI’s are time building and there is a different style between old school and new school CFI’s (also why it’s good to learn from different CFI’s). And none of them are perfect, you can be a CFI with as little as 250 hours which is very “low time”. As a newer pilot, I make mistakes ALL the time, but I am able to learn and talk about them.

To the OP, it is also impractical in my opinion to throw everything at you and call a safety stop, a lot of aviation is also subjective and opinion too, after all you are alive and well and talking about your experience today. When you are in the air, there is no safety stop, you have to fly the plane. In fact I am studying the CFI written and it says not to discourage new students. It is a difficult balance (calling a safety stop in my opinion would have been super discouraging!). You have to decide what works for you, but calm down and enjoy this experience at least, the hours and requirements to get your private, instrument and commercial tickets are designed as such to give you the opportunity to learn over time.

 

[Mxfarm]

Find an instructor you trust, and follow his lead/training. If your going to show up w/your own syllabus, for every lesson, I bet you’ll find someone who’ll be happy to take your money, for many hours.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

It doesn’t matter who is correct. You’re writing the checks. Find an instructor that you enjoy working with and don’t over think it. I interviewed several before I hired my primary instructor and years later was interviewed by many students. Some did not hire me. It’s normal.

that said assuming everything you have shared is accurate I would find another cfi.

 

[Hang 4]

Your mindset from the nuclear industry is going to have some advantages and challenges as you learn to fly. Checklists, complex regulations and the like are going to be easy. The "seat of your pants" part, less so. (I realize I'm making a broad generalization as I don't know you). You might want to think about an instructor that will help you with the parts that are less easy for you personally.

One guess I would make is you will have a tendency to focus on instruments vs looking outside. On my solo stage check, the head instructor took a towel and covered the entire panel with it when I was abeam the numbers. Kind of forced me to fly the plane vs the numbers.

Make sure you get a CFI you are comfortable with, but comfortable doesn't mean they never make you uncomfortable.

 

[Dry Creek]

Thanks for all of the input! I really have read and taken it all to heart.

One thing many picked up on, but a few may have missed was that I had no intention of utilizing this school for the remainder of my flight training. But, I am also open to input. If they had also done a good job marketing their school, explaining how having multiple planes and more than one instructor could actually benefit my training experience, I would have considered it. There are lots of folks who don't like sales pitches, but I would have expected at least a conversation about it. Instead, the distraction of the fire absorbed everyone's attention while I was left upstairs in the lounge with my wife. I am still thinking that being totally honest and up front with them may have influenced the outcome, but just a little. They missed an excellent marketing chance. They had aircraft that seemed to be well maintained. A staff of three instructors, a nice airfield to operate from, and rates more reasonable than some others I had checked with. The flight kinda' soured me though, but I do take some of the responsibility.

Another thing I'd like to point out, the only thing that really "locked me up" was the issue with the prop. I'm not going to expect a time out for flubbing radio call, losing some altitude in a turn, or any of the other basic mistakes I expect to make as a trainee. That won't keep me up at night. But, when a series of small, yet inconsequential events occur, that gets my attention. It's the "Swiss Cheese" effect. Eventually all of the holes are going to line up and an incident will fall through. That's the part I dwelt on while unable to sleep.

Just to list some more things that I omitted during the first "chapter". I am disappointed with myself for not being a consumer as well as a student. While doing the inside cabin preflight, I jumped on AR(R)OW and spent some time there. I had never seen an Airworthiness Certificate, so I had to carefully study each scrap of paper that I pulled out of the pocket. I found the registration and made a point to verify it against the tail number, but couldn't find the planes serial number. I know I had found it when I was checking it out during the excitement, and before we were sent upstairs. Operating Handbook, check - pointed to it in the seatback of the right seat. Weight and Balance. Hmmm, is that a separate sheet? Isn't that in the POH? Well, I need to ask. I never did. The pace picked up once the smoke cleared and we were off. I think at this point things were just too rushed. It was obvious that we would be finishing up well after their normal end of day knockoff time. I did not ask about the W&B. Anyone here, please fill me in.

The shoulder belt was interesting. I assumed as PIC he would want to be well strapped in. When I set out hay on the tractor, I always keep the ROPS (roll bar) up and seat belts fastened. Someone has to be in control of the machine. Our place has some rolling inclines, and with a big round bale on front and rear, the tractor's CG moves up.

I agree with the fact that maybe the CFI had assumed I possessed more skills/knowledge than I really did, based on having completed the written, and other chatter we had. As an example, tucked away in the corner was a nice, but very dusty example of an MU-2. I said "wow, is that an MU-2? Doesn't that take a special endorsement because of their handling characteristics"? He responded that it was a type rating that was needed. He mentioned the rudder and adverse yaw, so I remarked that it must have a very robust yaw damper to counter that. He explained that it in fact did not. That was probably not a typical conversation he has had with a first-flight student. As I've mentioned, I have been interested in aviation since as long as I can remember, so I've digested a lot of trivia. It was only after my wife got tired of me stopping work and scanning the sky each time a small plane flew over that she insisted I start working towards a certificate. It looks like I could have talked my way into a corner, and I can see how it will happen.

As far as "FLOW", I understand that it is a tool, and not a requirement. I did not mention that on downwind, just past what would be centerline of field I mentioned "this is about where we would start GUMPS, right"? He replied that it wasn't needed. The prop was fixed, the gear was fixed, and we didn't need to worry about fuel. I said I understand, fuel selected to BOTH. He said, yeah, and we never turned the lights off. That's also when we had our second conversation about carb heat, and why he felt it wasn't needed. Too warm, too dry. Once again, just a bunch of little things that added up to make me a little uncomfortable and uneasy.

I plan to have a sit-down with my chosen instructor and talk to him about the experience. As an older gentleman I think (hope) he may appreciate me listing my concerns and expectations, and realigning anything that needs it before we begin in earnest.

I really, really don't want people thinking that I am trying to disparage the instructor. Given the circumstances, I can understand how things turned out.

I would love, absolutely love to attend a Part 141 school. I find the structure appealing, and the idea of continuity of training just makes sense to me. I have an abundance of carryover vacation to burn too. I am just not able to find a school that isn't pushing ATP right now. I have considered TSTC. I could park our motor home down there and go to classes every day for two weeks to finish up. That would suit me just fine.

 

[Dana]

Some of the things you're describing are "yeah, you're overthinking it," but some of the others (like saying, "it's not cold enough to need carb heat" or "no need to clear because everybody has ADS-B") are just wrong and signs of a pilot who really doesn't know what he's talking about... inexcusable in a CFI. So yes, ditch this guy, though it sounds like you only intended to make this one flight with him, anyway.

But do consider... if the instructor you originally talked to (and I presume is the one you intend to actually train with) is teaching in a Luscombe, the training environment will likely be even more informal; old airplanes like that tend to go with a more easy going attitude. Not that that's necessarily bad, within limits-- it's a simple airplane-- but it probably won't be the highly structured safety environment you're expecting. OTOH, it might be refreshing and good for you... I'll take a real understanding of the aircraft and its systems over a rote recitation of a checklist or mnemonic any day.

 

[RonP]

I am not going into a debate about the instructor because zi am not one. I would like to point out some safety issues you should be aware of.

1) Regardless of the position of the mag switch ALWAYS treat the prop as if it is alive. Since you covered ground school it is possible the P lead could have broken making the mag hot regardless of the switch position.

2) Doing a clearing turn before maneuvers is a MUST. Not all aircraft are required to have ADS-B out. There is also the possibility an aircraft equipped with ADS-B out had a failure or in the case of the uAvionics units it was not turned on.

3) It has been awhile since I have flown a 172 but I think the POH states to use carb heat below a certain RPM regardless of temperature. I “think” carb ice is more related to the amount of moisture in the air than temperature. A high humidity warm day may result in carb icing more than a dry winter day with freezing temperatures.

4) Checklists are never to be memorized and never looked at. Regardless if you carry it around for the pre-flight or do thru a flow it should be reviewed one more time before starting the engine to make sure you did everything. Getting interrupted during the pre-flight is a common occurrence even from other pilots in the area. “Morning Bob, where you going today?” can lead to a distraction. Once in the airplane with the door closed review the checklist one more time to make sure you covered everything.

 

[PaulS]

Damn, I don't think you are ever going to find an instructor who is good enough because you already know more. You probably just need to call a DPE, go on a check ride and finally figure out you really don't know what you don't know. You have a lot to learn.

You went on a discovery ride. The ride's purpose is to hook the client into aviation, not to bore them with the rote and action required to be an aviator. I'm willing to bet that instructor had thoroughly pre flighted that plane before you got there. In fact he told you so when he said the airplane had already flown. Discovery flights are lost leaders for schools and instructors. It's not a lesson, it's supposed to be fun.


You have a lot to learn, you need to calm your brain, forget what you think you know, stop the anal overthinking, and do what the instructor tells you to do.

I've had instructors tell me some engineers can be some of the worst students. Constantly trying to reinforce how much smarter they are, while totally missing the point of what is being taught.

Don't be that guy.

 

[Dry Creek]

Some of the things you're describing are "yeah, you're overthinking it," but some of the others (like saying, "it's not cold enough to need carb heat" or "no need to clear because everybody has ADS-B") are just wrong and signs of a pilot who really doesn't know what he's talking about... inexcusable in a CFI. So yes, ditch this guy, though it sounds like you only intended to make this one flight with him, anyway.

But do consider... if the instructor you originally talked to (and I presume is the one you intend to actually train with) is teaching in a Luscombe, the training environment will likely be even more informal; old airplanes like that tend to go with a more easy going attitude. Not that that's necessarily bad, within limits-- it's a simple airplane-- but it probably won't be the highly structured safety environment you're expecting. OTOH, it might be refreshing and good for you... I'll take a real understanding of the aircraft and its systems over a rote recitation of a checklist or mnemonic any day.

You are correct, this was supposed to be a "once and done", but I could have been persuaded to consider using their school, if they had made an attempt to market their product. They had decent, well-maintained aircraft, more than one CFI available, and comfortable, clean facilities.

The instructor I plan to use has an older C-172, with no ADS-B Out, so limited to Class D for my towered work. But I knew that the Granbury flight school had a Luscombe * SilvAire in their fleet. I found that while considering Sport Pilot as an option when I was looking at all the hoops needed to jump through for third-class medical. It was just that we weren't doing any clearing turns before the stalls, and we were int he vicinity of that flight school. It was just an example in my mind of an aircraft that was most likely NOT transmitting ADS-B out, just like the many experimentals and LSA homebuilts coming up from Pecan Plantation. I tried to stay eyes-outside as much as possible.

 

[Dry Creek]

Damn, I don't think you are ever going to find an instructor who is good enough because you already know more. You probably just need to call a DPE, go on a check ride and finally figure out you really don't know what you don't know. You have a lot to learn.

You went on a discovery ride. The ride's purpose is to hook the client into aviation, not to bore them with the rote and action required to be an aviator. I'm willing to bet that instructor had thoroughly pre flighted that plane before you got there. In fact he told you so when he said the airplane had already flown. Discovery flights are lost leaders for schools and instructors. It's not a lesson, it's supposed to be fun.


You have a lot to learn, you need to calm your brain, forget what you think you know, stop the anal overthinking, and do what the instructor tells you to do.

I've had instructors tell me some engineers can be some of the worst students. Constantly trying to reinforce how much smarter they are, while totally missing the point of what is being taught.

Don't be that guy.

Good heavens, I absolutely do not know more than a CFI. I do realize that I have a lot to learn. I wanted to be familiar with aviation, rules, and safety precautions before getting into the plane for the first time.

Is that the wrong approach? Did I say I was ready for a check ride? I had questions. Things didn't feel right. I chose to ask here, where there are people who had gone through the same thing I was just starting. I did not challenge the CFI on any of those issues. I just fell back into the obedient student mode. I decided to come here and seek input. Imagine if your child was using a driver's education instructor who didn't enforce seatbelt usage, or felt that it's OK to not expect cross traffic because the light is green. That wouldn't concern you?

So, if the instructor "had thoroughly preflighted the plane before my arrival", did the magneto switch reposition itself to BOTH all on its own? I didn't do it, because the keys were in a locker somewhere in the FBO. The CFI discovered that after he had hopped in and was ready to get the ride over with.

 

[saracelica]

@Dry Creek you can talk to the instructor you don't like all you want but it's like dating. There is nothing you can tell the wrong person what's wrong with them. Find one that you do like and pay them. I had my share of instructors. I ditched one went to another who I didn't align with, want to a second one and realized the original one had my best interest. Flying is hard. You'll be with an instructor for at least 40 hours but probably more like 60.

One thing I definitely learned is you need three things to learn something new.
Time
money
Energy
Unfortunately you need them at the same time. So if you decide to squeeze in your hour training after a tiring day of work it'll be wasted.

 

[DFH65]

Are you over thinking it? Based on reading your write up. Probably. Are you paying the bill? Yes. I suggest you find a instructor that is of the same mindset as you or I sense you won't be satisfied.

 

[TommyG]

As a CFI, I can say many CFIs do not really enjoy doing intro/discovery flights. Majority of them are just people walking in the door doing a bucket list item. Many places usually pay the CFI a lower rate than an actual training rate.

 

[PaulS]

Good heavens, I absolutely do not know more than a CFI. I do realize that I have a lot to learn. I wanted to be familiar with aviation, rules, and safety precautions before getting into the plane for the first time.

Is that the wrong approach? Did I say I was ready for a check ride? I had questions. Things didn't feel right. I chose to ask here, where there are people who had gone through the same thing I was just starting. I did not challenge the CFI on any of those issues. I just fell back into the obedient student mode. I decided to come here and seek input. Imagine if your child was using a driver's education instructor who didn't enforce seatbelt usage, or felt that it's OK to not expect cross traffic because the light is green. That wouldn't concern you?

So, if the instructor "had thoroughly preflighted the plane before my arrival", did the magneto switch reposition itself to BOTH all on its own? I didn't do it, because the keys were in a locker somewhere in the FBO. The CFI discovered that after he had hopped in and was ready to get the ride over with.

You wrote paragraphs slamming this instructor. The key set to both? That's abnormal, but it was caught, you saw it first, then he realized it. I dont note the position of the switch before my preflight other than to make sure the key isnt in there and probably would not have noticed it until i went to start. No big deal, file it under crap happens.

The clearing turns? That's your version and perception. Maybe he had already cleared the area while you were thinking what a sucky instructor he was, or working to keep the plane level, remember, discovery ride, not a lesson. That said, for future reference, if you feel you want more clearing turns, speak up and do them.

The bottom line is you need to trust your instructor and learn from him. Being in constant challenge mode will impede your performance and exhaust your instructor. You have a lot to learn. In the beginning controlling the airplane, learning everything necessary to safely fly, takes a massive amount of your primary brain power to master. It will eventually become automatic leaving you capacity to start using what you learned from the books. It takes some time, in the meantime the instructor is there to save your life. He will save it many times during your training.

You obviously won't use this guy again, which is a good thing. You seriously need to lighten up, enjoy the ride and learn what being a safe pilot is. Your nit picking is not it.

I was like you in the beginning, although not nearly as bad. I had doubts in my instructor, but decided to implicitly trust him and do what he said when I realized early on that what I wanted to do was impeding me.

Open your mind and learn.

 

[SkyChaser]

I was one of those students who walked in knowing way more theoretical knowledge than the average first flight discovery student, and my experience was totally different.

I hadn't retained as much as you have, but I'd already read through the Pilot's Handbook and the Flying Handbook two or three times, and could get passing scores on practice tests for the written, so I had a decent base knowledge. I told the instructor who would be flying me that I'd never seen or touched a GA plane before, and that everything I knew was entirely booksmarts. She walked me through a preflight, had me read the checklist to her for all the pre-taxi and pretakeoff checks, discussed what we'd do if the engine failed, and then we took off. She let me do the ailerons/yoke, while she did throttle and rudder. We flew from the airport over to my house, and circled around a couple of times, and then flew back. On the way back, she asked if I wanted to do a stall, which I said sure, so she showed me how to do that, and yes, we did clearing turns. I did almost all the flying - the first time we circled my house, she had me shadow her on the controls so I could see what it felt like, but the next time, I did it by myself. When we got closer to the airport (it was little, uncontrolled, sleepy airport, so no one around), she verbalized her landing checklist, and explained why she was checking what she was checking, and then we did a straight in to the runway. It was super windy, so she did the landing, but told me to keep my hands and feet on the controls so I could feel what that was like. I did all the taxiing myself, and I was so impressed that I could do that.

My first lesson, I knew even more, because it was ten long months before I could start lessons and I spent the entire time learning. I could pass the practice tests with 90+% scores and I knew theoretically how to do every required maneuver. My first instructor was not the same pilot who'd flown me on my discovery flight (same plane and airport, though!), and before we got in the plane, he spent an hour grilling me about what I knew. Everything from naming control surfaces on the plane to what makes a plane stall to tolerances for maneuvers on the checkride. We walked out together, he did the preflight while I watched, we strapped in, checklist usage, radio calls, I taxied, assisted in takeoff, and then we spent the next two hours having a blast. We did at least one of every maneuver I'd need to do on the checkride - first he'd demo and then I'd attempt to mimic it, and used clearing turns and checklists, eyes outside and ears tuned to the radio. It was great. He did the landing, because we were 40 minutes over the time allotted for my lessons before either of us realized it and he just got us down and to the gas pump quick. He told me know to fuel it up and watched me do it, and then he talked over the flight with me while his next student (who had flown multiple times before) preflighted and got ready to go.

I took my written when I had ten hours in the plane and that was only because it took a while to get the written scheduled and I kept forgetting to get my instructor to endorse my logbook so I could. I got a 95%, so all those people who think you're crazy for even studying for the written before flying much because it's too hard to understand what it's all saying are the crazy ones. LOL

I guess my long-winded point is - you'll do a lot of overthinking, but you need to do it on the ground. Some of it is good, like overthinking safety stuff. Some of it is bad, like critiquing your landings or maneuvers and feeling poorly about them because they weren't all greasers. I ended up with an full-time engineer who worked evenings and weekends as a part 61 flight instructor. We worked absolutely great together because we both liked to "overthink". Maybe you should look for an instructor who shares your thought processes and can understand where you're coming from, instead of focusing on finding a school-like culture. You might be surprised how much the individual instructor will influence the actual atmosphere of your lesson.

And yes, like PaulS says, you should trust your instructor and not try to impose expectations, syllabi, and schedules on every lesson. The CFIs do generally have an idea of what they're doing, and if you ask, they'll probably share their thoughts. But before you just trust the guy in the right seat, find the instructor who is interested in teaching you to be a safe, competent pilot.

 

[sarangan]

I will add my personal opinion to this thread.

Disovery flights are not meant to educate. They are meant to give you a small taste of flying. Typically the airplane will be preflighted and ready, and you just hop in and go. If you have done your written exam, medical and have some background knowledge, you are wasting time taking a discovery flight. Given all that, your concerns about the instructor may be a bit out of context. The person giving the discovery flight does not even have to be a CFI.

The magentos being left on is a bit concerning, however. The first step in a preflight is to open the door and check the cockpit condition (which includes mags, battery, fuel gauge etc..). I find it a bit odd that the instructor sent you off on your own to do the preflight.

Regarding check lists, yes one should be used. But a 172 is a simple airplane. Not using a checklist at all is a poor habit, but having to pull out the checklist for everything is the other extreme.

 

[Dry Creek]

I do appreciate all of the time for feedback everyone has expended.

I just wanted to reiterate one thing though - overall, I enjoyed the experience. I am relieved to know that my stomach is not opposed to flight maneuvers, and the stall wasn't as frightening to me as it apparently is to some students.
I just want to be an attentive, prepared and engaged student.

 

[brcase]

I think it gave my instructors a bad impression that I knew more than I did

This is was my first thought when the OP said the instructor said go pre-flight the airplane. And to be a bit fair the fact that you knew to look for a checklist, could tell tell the magneto switch was in both, new about carb heat, It would be fair to think you did now a fair amount.

If someone told me they had flown a simulator a lot, and we had some down time before the flight, I could see possibly sending them out the airplane to familize themselves with the checklist and controls. I might even let them proceed with as much of the flight, once we started, as the are capable of just evaluate what they know and what blanks or practices I need to fill in or correct.

The OP is correct that is a bit on him to not report or ask about the Magneto switch in the Both Position. That could be an easy thing to miss. This is something that should be a very good learning opportunity and demonstrates why we always treat the prop/engine like it could start. I would question if the switch is defective in that it allows the key to be removed when it it not in the off position. I don't know if it is or is not, but would ask the maintenance guy if he is comfortable with it, especially if there were to be an incident, would be be comfortable defending that is how it is supposed to be.
The instructor may or may not follow up on this, but you the OP continues flying the airplane he should ask some questions and learn about it.

One poster stated..

you know that it takes some effort and force to get that prop to turn, even with the magnetos on

WRONG, except for maybe some older airplanes without impulse coupling. This is why if you need to reposition the prop it is best to move it a bit past the position you want it and and then back to the position you want it to stay in.
It can take as little as a 1/4" of movement at the tip to start an engine if the prop is in the correct position to do so.
I recommend asking an instructor or mechanic what impulse coupling is, and what the click is, and means, when you pull a prop through. Google can probably answer a lot of it as well, but if necessary message me and I will be happy to prove a lesson in what I know about it.

It sounds to me like the OP will be an excellent student and fun to teach. I wouldn't necessarily give up the current instructor, as I posted on another thread, much of how your training proceeds should be dependent on the student as they learn to take command of the training (using the available resources) and command of an airplane.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Dry Creek]

The OP is correct that is a bit on him to not report or ask about the Magneto switch in the Both Position. That could be an easy thing to miss. This is something that should be a very good learning opportunity and demonstrates why we always treat the prop/engine like it could start.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Brian, thanks for chiming in. Most of all, I wanted to get input from CFI's on this. I don't want to be a difficult student, but I want to be sure that I am being instructed correctly.

I will kinda' take exception to one of your statements. It's not a bit on me, it's all on me for not asking about something that could have led to a dangerous condition. I am amazed at how easy it was for me to convince myself that I wasn't really seeing what I thought I was seeing. As an adult, I know that I am responsible for my own safety, as well as others too at times.

I will also go on to state that I was lucky enough to speak with a coworker who is using the same CFI I am going with. He explained to me in simple terms "don't expect nuclear power level" of procedure use and adherence, but always mention any safety concerns. He said that the CFI is very attuned to addressing any concerns of the students. He is an older fellow and has had more than one incident where power was lost, but safe forced landings were made. It's a good thing that hay production is a staple in this area. Nice smooth, flat coastal pastures. I will do better on focusing on skills and less on nit-picky administrative functions from now on. Or at least that's my goal.

 

[RoscoeT]

He repeated the same thing he had generically mentioned on the flight: “don’t overthink things, students always tend to overthink”

Dayum is your CFI correct.

 

[RingLaserGyroSandwich]

Thinking too much is bad when you're in mid swing trying to hit a golf ball. Thinking too much about how to make life-or-death decisions is rarely a real problem when flying a chair on the ground.

 

[mandm]

I do appreciate all of the time for feedback everyone has expended.

I just wanted to reiterate one thing though - overall, I enjoyed the experience. I am relieved to know that my stomach is not opposed to flight maneuvers, and the stall wasn't as frightening to me as it apparently is to some students.
I just want to be an attentive, prepared and engaged student.

Calm down and try another lesson. Learn to listen, it’s a skill. There’s been a moment when I wanted to change CFI’s. They are pilots first and teachers second after all. Control your emotions is an important skill to not read about you on Katherine’s report.

 

[somorris]

I just hate it for you, Dry Creek, that you didn't come away from your discovery flight walking on air.

There are differences in people, though, and some have strengths in one area while another person will have strengths in a different area. For sure, seek your instruction from a different CFI. But for me, the main thing is to be safe and have fun.

 

[Dry Creek]

Interesting thread somebody made me aware of:

Ignition Key Warning..... | Pilots of America

And it was also covered by General Aviation News: It could happen to anybody… — General Aviation News

 

[Dry Creek]

I just hate it for you, Dry Creek, that you didn't come away from your discovery flight walking on air.

There are differences in people, though, and some have strengths in one area while another person will have strengths in a different area. For sure, seek your instruction from a different CFI. But for me, the main thing is to be safe and have fun.

Please don't think that I had a miserable time, I was just wondering about some aspects of the adventure that occurred in a manner other than what I was expecting.

My original CFI sent me a text today and is hoping to have his plane ready for me this Saturday. I am looking forward to the trip up, I will focus more on the mechanics of learning rather than trying to do everything 100% correctly.

 

[Brad Z]

I’ll be honest, your post was too long and I didn’t read it all. But I did read others responses so I think you’ve been given good advice. I’ll live this tidbit…you flew one discovery flight with one instructor. You don’t owe him anything and he doesn’t owe you anything. There are plenty out there so go find one that gives you a good vibe.

 

[Dry Creek]

I’ll be honest, your post was too long and I didn’t read it all. But I did read others responses so I think you’ve been given good advice. I’ll live this tidbit…you flew one discovery flight with one instructor. You don’t owe him anything and he doesn’t owe you anything. There are plenty out there so go find one that gives you a good vibe.

Yeah, I do tend to rattle on.

Already have a CFI picked out. We are both hoping his plane gets out of annual this week.

 

[NHWannabe]

I do appreciate all of the time for feedback everyone has expended.

I just wanted to reiterate one thing though - overall, I enjoyed the experience. I am relieved to know that my stomach is not opposed to flight maneuvers, and the stall wasn't as frightening to me as it apparently is to some students.
I just want to be an attentive, prepared and engaged student.

I flew with 4 different instructors before picking one that I thought I could mesh with and was able to work with my schedule...as others have said it's like dating. Fly with a few CFI's.