Must Safety Pilot Have Complex Endorsement?

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

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I have always understood that a safety pilot must have necessary endorsements such as complex endorsement for a complex airplane and so forth. My instructor said “there is a provision that allows him not to be endorsed.” If my instructor is wrong on this it is the second time he has misinterpreted the FAR’s.
 
Right or wrong, I've acted as Safety Pilot in a High Performance airplane without being endorsed. I was not PIC and my eyes were working.

It's similar but not the same as your question. I don't know that there is "a provision" but I don't think he is wrong on this point.

Corrections to follow.
 
§91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests.
(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least:
(i) A private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown; or

That’s it. No endorsements required for complex, high performance, tailwheel, etc. The safety pilot is a required crew member so must possess a valid medical.
 
The FARs only require that the safety pilot have at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown. They don’t say anything about having endorsements for the plane. If he doesn’t have the endorsements then he can’t act as, and log, PIC.

Your instructor is right about this, how many times have you misinterpreted the FARs?
 
I don’t know how many times I have misinterpreted FAR’s, but I know that he has misinterpreted once to me. After that it’s natural to doubt him sometimes.

Thanks for the help guys!
 
MBDiagMan said:
I don’t know how many times I have misinterpreted FAR’s, but I know that he has misinterpreted once to me. After that it’s natural to doubt him sometimes.

Thanks for the help guys!
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No one's infallible.
 
Endorsements aren't required, only category/class. I'm to lazy to look it up.
 
The safety pilot doesn't need the endorsements - The PIC does.

Meaning, that if the safety pilot doesn't have the endorsements, they cannot be the PIC, which means they cannot log PIC. (They can still log SIC for the time the pilot flying is under the hood.)

Not that this was going to be the classic two-pilots-logging-PIC scenario, just wanted to point that out for those who might not have thought of the logging part.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The safety pilot doesn't need the endorsements - The PIC does.

Meaning, that if the safety pilot doesn't have the endorsements, they cannot be the PIC, which means they cannot log PIC. (They can still log SIC for the time the pilot flying is under the hood.)

Not that this was going to be the classic two-pilots-logging-PIC scenario, just wanted to point that out for those who might not have thought of the logging part.
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IOW, and leaving out the logging issue, if the safety pilot is going to be acting as PIC, he needs the endorsement. Otherwise not.

I think that's where the confusion comes from. The question asks whether a safety pilot needs the complex endorsement, as though there is only one answer.

But there are two answers, depending on whether the flying pilot or the safety pilot is acting as pilot in command.
 
As long as we're on the topic, might as well go deeper with a couple add-on questions just for review.
1. Does the safety pilot need a valid medical?
2. Separate from the topic but in a similar vein, can a pilot log PIC in a complex or HP if they lack the endorsements but were on the controls for a flight with a properly endorsed non-CFI pilot in the other seat?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
As long as we're on the topic, might as well go deeper with a couple add-on questions just for review.
1. Does the safety pilot need a valid medical?
2. Separate from the topic but in a similar vein, can a pilot log PIC in a complex or HP if they lack the endorsements but were on the controls for a flight with a properly endorsed non-CFI pilot in the other seat?
Click to expand...
I have researched these at different times - this is from memory.
1. - Yes - The safety pilot is required crew and must have a medical. I cant remember the reg - i’ll look it up.
2. - yes - If you meet 61.51 -sole manipulator of the controls - yes.

How did I do?
 
Jim_CAK said:
I have researched these at different times - this is from memory.
1. - Yes - The safety pilot is required crew and must have a medical. I cant remember the reg - i’ll look it up.
2. - yes - If you meet 61.51 -sole manipulator of the controls - yes.

How did I do?
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Perfectly. The regs are 91.109 (safety pilot) and 61.23 (required crewmembers require a medical). The PIC one is 61.51(e). And there are almost 40 years of Chief Counsel interpretations which agree.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Perfectly. The regs are 91.109 (safety pilot) and 61.23 (required crewmembers require a medical). The PIC one is 61.51(e). And there are almost 40 years of Chief Counsel interpretations which agree.
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Thanks for referencing the appropriate references Mark. I have learned a few things reading your posts over the years!
 
Juliet Hotel said:
As long as we're on the topic, might as well go deeper with a couple add-on questions just for review.
1. Does the safety pilot need a valid medical?
2. Separate from the topic but in a similar vein, can a pilot log PIC in a complex or HP if they lack the endorsements but were on the controls for a flight with a properly endorsed non-CFI pilot in the other seat?
Click to expand...

Jim_CAK said:
I have researched these at different times - this is from memory.
1. - Yes - The safety pilot is required crew and must have a medical. I cant remember the reg - i’ll look it up.
2. - yes - If you meet 61.51 -sole manipulator of the controls - yes.

How did I do?
Click to expand...

Your answer to #1 is correct if you consider the term "medical" to include BasicMed. If not, then it must be pointed out that an FAA medical certificate is not required if the safety pilot is qualified under BasicMed, is qualified to act as pilot-in-command (including any endorsement that may be required), and is doing so.
 
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Palmpilot said:
Your answer to #1 is correct if you consider the term "medical" to include BasicMed. If not, then it must be pointed out that an FAA medical certificate is not required if the safety pilot is qualified under BasicMed and is acting as pilot-in-command.
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But I thought in the original scenario the safety pilot doesn't have a complex endorsement, and therefore cannot act as pilot-in-command. In which case they cannot use BasicMed to act as a (non-PIC) required crewmember... at least until/if the FAA fixes that anti-loophole.
 
Palmpilot said:
Your answer to #1 is correct if you consider the term "medical" to include BasicMed. If not, then it must be pointed out that an FAA medical certificate is not required if the safety pilot is qualified under BasicMed and is acting as pilot-in-command.
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Yes. I keep forgetting to include BasicMed.
 
mcmanigle said:
But I thought in the original scenario the safety pilot doesn't have a complex endorsement, and therefore cannot act as pilot-in-command. In which case they cannot use BasicMed to act as a (non-PIC) required crewmember... at least until/if the FAA fixes that anti-loophole.
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I thought the premise of the OP was a complex aircraft, and that whether the pilot needed an endorsement was the answer he was looking for, not the premise. However, I have edited my post to clarify.
 
dmspilot said:
But the safety pilot logs what they are.
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Based on a Chief Counsel interpretation, the safety pilot can log it as PIC if he or she has been designated as the person who, in the words of 14 CFR 1.1, "has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight."
 
labbadabba said:
If they lack a HP endorsement, they cannot log PIC in a HP aircraft.
Click to expand...

Here we go... :mad2:

@labbadabba, I'll assume you're new to this whole thing, and just don't know... What you posted above is not true whatsoever. You cannot *be* the PIC without the proper endorsements. You can *log* PIC all you want, as long as you're the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated. If you read the definitions in 1.1 and elsewhere, "rated" means the right stuff is printed on your pilot certificate from the FAA. High Performance is a logbook endorsement, not a rating. So, you can log PIC time in a TBM for the time you're sole manipulator of the controls, as long as you have a pilot certificate for Airplane Single Engine Land (which is what the TBM is).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Here we go... :mad2:

@labbadabba, I'll assume you're new to this whole thing, and just don't know... What you posted above is not true whatsoever. You cannot *be* the PIC without the proper endorsements. You can *log* PIC all you want, as long as you're the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated. If you read the definitions in 1.1 and elsewhere, "rated" means the right stuff is printed on your pilot certificate from the FAA. High Performance is a logbook endorsement, not a rating. So, you can log PIC time in a TBM for the time you're sole manipulator of the controls, as long as you have a pilot certificate for Airplane Single Engine Land (which is what the TBM is).
Click to expand...

If only there was a flowchart to answer all these questions.
 
Palmpilot said:
Based on a Chief Counsel interpretation, the safety pilot can log it as PIC if he or she has been designated as the person who, in the words of 14 CFR 1.1, "has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight."
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Yes. And just to be absolutely clear, in THAT case the safety pilot is acting as PIC, and must indeed have any endorsements that are needed in order to act as PIC.

So to summarize, for the OP's question, the different permutations:

1. Acting as pilot in command: needs a complex endorsement and must be designated as PIC by agreement of both parties. Does NOT require an FAA medical; BasicMed is sufficient.

2. Acting only as safety pilot: does NOT need a complex endorsement, but DOES require an FAA medical. BasicMed does not allow one to be a required crewmember unless acting as PIC.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Here we go... :mad2:

@labbadabba, I'll assume you're new to this whole thing, and just don't know... What you posted above is not true whatsoever. You cannot *be* the PIC without the proper endorsements. You can *log* PIC all you want, as long as you're the sole manipulator of the controls
Click to expand...

The safety pilot is not the sole manipulator. His statement was true in the context of the question that was asked.
 
Basic Med has some quirks in it when it comes to safety pilots. Because of the way it's written, Basic Med only works if you are PIC.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/basic_med/media/basicmed_faq.pdf

Something to think about - in my situation, as a renter, my rental agreements say that I need to be checked out and approved in order to be PIC of any plane I fly. So, if I want to be a safety pilot and log any of it as PIC, then I have to be signed off for that plane. If I am asked to be Safety Pilot in a plane I haven't been checked out in, then I can do it but can't be PIC (per the rental agreement, FAA doesn't care). Basic Med says it's only valid if you are PIC, so that needs to be taken into account.

From the FAA FAQ:
>>
Q25: Can I use BasicMed to act as a safety pilot, rather than holding a medical?

A: Only if you’re acting as PIC while performing the duties of safety pilot. The
statutory language prescribing BasicMed said it only applies to people acting as PIC.
BasicMed cannot be exercised by safety pilots who are not acting as PIC but are required crewmembers.
<<

edit: I see that the Basic Med deal has been covered already.
 
Threads like this make me glad that I no longer care about logging hours or building time. I'll be happy to sit as safety pilot for someone. But my chances of bothering to log it are slim to none and slim's out of town.
 
Matthew said:
Basic Med has some quirks in it when it comes to safety pilots. Because of the way it's written, Basic Med only works if you are PIC.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/basic_med/media/basicmed_faq.pdf

Something to think about - in my situation, as a renter, my rental agreements say that I need to be checked out and approved in order to be PIC of any plane I fly. So, if I want to be a safety pilot and log any of it as PIC, then I have to be signed off for that plane. If I am asked to be Safety Pilot in a plane I haven't been checked out in, then I can do it but can't be PIC (per the rental agreement, FAA doesn't care). Basic Med says it's only valid if you are PIC, so that needs to be taken into account.

From the FAA FAQ:
>>
Q25: Can I use BasicMed to act as a safety pilot, rather than holding a medical?

A: Only if you’re acting as PIC while performing the duties of safety pilot. The
statutory language prescribing BasicMed said it only applies to people acting as PIC.
BasicMed cannot be exercised by safety pilots who are not acting as PIC but are required crewmembers.
<<

edit: I see that the Basic Med deal has been covered already.
Click to expand...

Dumbest FAQ answer ever.

Yep, you can fly in the soup at 200+kts, in a 6,000lb air craft and you're good. But to watch for other traffic in a ********* ********* ********* **** ******** 172 when it's CAVU requires a class III. Is MacPherson back at the FAA? Holy **** they are retarded.
 
dmspilot said:
The safety pilot is not the sole manipulator. His statement was true in the context of the question that was asked.
Click to expand...

His statement was:

"If they lack a HP endorsement, they cannot log PIC in a HP aircraft."

That is completely untrue, regardless of context.

If the statement was "If they lack a HP endorsement, they cannot act as PIC, but can be the safety pilot and act as and log SIC", well, that would be true.

Or, "If they lack a HP endorsement, the safety pilot in the OP's scenario cannot log PIC"... But that wasn't the question, so the original quote that "they cannot log PIC in a HP aircraft" is still not true in the context of the question that was asked, nor is it true in the general sense.
 
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