Multiengine VFR-only limitation

RussR

RussR

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Please tell me about the "Multiengine VFR only" limitation. I have not had this situation before:

I have a client working on his Private Pilot, Multiengine add-on. He is PP-ASEL and instrument rated.
He is doing this as a hobby and to learn something new. He is not likely to fly or buy a multiengine airplane.
He is really, really rusty at hand-flying an approach, let alone Single-engine. Let's just say that instrument flying may no longer be in his future.

The "Multiengine VFR only" might be ideal for him. He understands the limitations involved and is okay with that.

So, how does this work? Does he need to tell the examiner in advance? Can he try the engine-out instrument approach but if he busts it, still pass but just have the limitation?

We have a couple of flights left before his checkride, but realistically I'm not optimistic. I think it would take a lot of time and money for him to get proficient, time and money that really serves no purpose for him and his goals.
 
I'm probably wrong but I thought if you already had your IR you were pretty much "stuck" with having to do an approach OEI on the check ride.

What says the ACS?
(On my phone and reading it on this is poop)

Edit: texted a DPE and he says:

Yes...kind of...but if you do you lose your IR single privileges
 
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If he just wants a taste of it, but will “never” fly multiengine airplanes, give him some training to the level he wants and forego the checkride.

if he wants to do something “official”, getting back up to speed with instrument flying (single engine) would probably be much more beneficial...even if he never uses it, the proficiency could arguably save his life. Or maybe even teach him the old ASF emergency instrument technique.

It really depends on why he’s doing what he’s doing. Even without the actual multi rating he might still be able to save an airliner full of grateful supermodels. ;)
 
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If he just wants a taste of it ,don’t go for the flight checkride. Do a bunch of multi with a CFI.
 
I think Russ is a CFI and he wants his multi rating, just not the instrument part.....
 
RussR said:
Can he try the engine-out instrument approach but if he busts it, still pass but just have the limitation?
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That is definitely a no. It must be decided before the test.
 
bbchien said:
Russ, you just specify VFR-only when you apply in IACRA. Easy Peasy.
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I thought so too, but I just went in IACRA and tried to create an application like that. I did not see any option for "VFR only".

In fact, I don't even see anything in the 8900.2 about it (it has lots about VFR-only type ratings and information about if they do NOT already have an instrument rating).

The ACS is confusing. It doesn't directly talk about this situation that I can find, but does say "If an applicant holds both a single- and multiengine rating on a pilot certificate, but has not demonstrated instrument proficiency in a multiengine aircraft, that airman’s certificate must bear a limitation indicating that multiengine flight is permitted in visual flight rules (VFR) conditions only." But in my case, the applicant does not hold a single and multiengine rating yet, that is what is being applied for.
 
RussR said:
I don't disbelieve you, but can I ask for the source for this? It would likely answer my other questions as well.
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The information was from a DPE. I wish I could give you a written source, but if you couldn't find it I probably couldn't either.

Also I thought I read here a short while ago that they don't even let you choose anymore, that you have to take the test with instrument privileges if you're instrument rated (like EdFred said) but I don't remember where/when I saw that.

The best thing to do would be to ask the DPE who you plan to use for the checkride.
 
RussR said:
I thought so too, but I just went in IACRA and tried to create an application like that. I did not see any option for "VFR only".

In fact, I don't even see anything in the 8900.2 about it (it has lots about VFR-only type ratings and information about if they do NOT already have an instrument rating).

The ACS is confusing. It doesn't directly talk about this situation that I can find, but does say "If an applicant holds both a single- and multiengine rating on a pilot certificate, but has not demonstrated instrument proficiency in a multiengine aircraft, that airman’s certificate must bear a limitation indicating that multiengine flight is permitted in visual flight rules (VFR) conditions only." But in my case, the applicant does not hold a single and multiengine rating yet, that is what is being applied for.
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The VFR restriction is for folks who get their multi before getting their instrument rating. The only way around it would be for the applicant to voluntarily surrender his instrument rating. Otherwise you have to bring an instrument capable aircraft and complete the instrument tasks of the ACS.
 
What you’re proposing is no longer allowed. Do the ifr related tasks for the multi add on.
I don’t remember the date change. If course non-ifr students don’t have this problem.
 
Well I obviously misunderstood something or was told bad information years ago and it stuck with me!

Thanks all! I'll do my best to get him into shape.
 
Sorry Russ, you're asking the right question but you're not getting good information in reply.

Nothing has changed.

The applicant may simply elect not to demonstrate tasks X.C. and X.D. There is no provision for this in IACRA; prepare a "normal" application. Upon successful completion of the practical test a "multiengine limited to VFR only" limitation will be placed on the applicant's temporary airman certificate.

Hope this helps,

-Ryan
 
Ryan F. said:
Sorry Russ, you're asking the right question but you're not getting good information in reply.

Nothing has changed.

The applicant may simply elect not to demonstrate tasks X.C. and X.D. There is no provision for this in IACRA; prepare a "normal" application. Upon successful completion of the practical test a "multiengine limited to VFR only" limitation will be placed on the applicant's temporary airman certificate.

Hope this helps,

-Ryan
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I would assume a close reading of the ACS would explain this? Kind of like the instrument ACS that calls out which things are part of an IPC.
 
Ryan F. said:
Sorry Russ, you're asking the right question but you're not getting good information in reply.

Nothing has changed.

The applicant may simply elect not to demonstrate tasks X.C. and X.D. There is no provision for this in IACRA; prepare a "normal" application. Upon successful completion of the practical test a "multiengine limited to VFR only" limitation will be placed on the applicant's temporary airman certificate.

Hope this helps,

-Ryan
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Ryan,
I realize you are a DPE. But where is it stated that the applicant still has this option? They used to, for sure.

The ACS is clear, perhaps it is somewhere else still. From the ACS, my bolding.
X. Multiengine Operations Note: If the applicant does not hold an instrument-airplane rating airplane, Tasks C and D do not need to be accomplished. All other Tasks must be completed.
 
Ryan F. said:
Sorry Russ, you're asking the right question but you're not getting good information in reply.

Nothing has changed.

The applicant may simply elect not to demonstrate tasks X.C. and X.D. There is no provision for this in IACRA; prepare a "normal" application. Upon successful completion of the practical test a "multiengine limited to VFR only" limitation will be placed on the applicant's temporary airman certificate.

Hope this helps,

-Ryan
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Have you conducted such a test recently?
 
Interesting question. I was under the impression, probably from tribal knowledge based on the old PTS wording thats mentioned, that it was the option of the applicant. But you are right, from what I read in the ACS and the 8900.1, the only way to issue a VFR Limitation is if someone already has a multiengine class and then gets an instrument rating in a single. It does not appear that the single engine instrument flying and approach is optional.

I guess this is the "Stump the DPE" thread for the day :)

I will say that the single engine approach is the most common reason for a failure on the multiengine checkrides i've given, by far.
 
There sure are a lot of caveats that I must have unknowingly avoided by starting in single engine airplanes, the getting my Instrument Rating (with a minimum 200 hours!), then moving on to single engine commercial and CFI before moving on to multiengine and CFII ad-ons...

I also avoided all the silly High Performance/Complex, high altitude and tailwheel stuff.

I just took checkrides and was qualified. There have been plenty of regulation changes since then...
 
tonycondon said:
Interesting question. I was under the impression, probably from tribal knowledge based on the old PTS wording thats mentioned, that it was the option of the applicant. But you are right, from what I read in the ACS and the 8900.1, the only way to issue a VFR Limitation is if someone already has a multiengine class and then gets an instrument rating in a single. It does not appear that the single engine instrument flying and approach is optional.

I guess this is the "Stump the DPE" thread for the day :)

I will say that the single engine approach is the most common reason for a failure on the multiengine checkrides i've given, by far.
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I don’t recall when it was changed, maybe with the ACS? Maybe with that round of DPE changes that allowed DPEs to go to other FSDO areas. It’s hard to keep up with everything.

I can’t imagine that this was very common. Hell, private multi isn’t real common around here (but it happens), and then to get one that has an IFR but doesn’t want to use it in the twin?
 
benyflyguy said:
Paging @dtuuri ???
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Zzzz... huh? Whaa? I never was a multi DPE, not enough demand in my area. BUT I have opinions! Anybody with a multi ought to have an instrument too. That extra engine can pull you into bad weather faster than a blink, especially north of, say, the Ohio river. OTOH, if someone can get there (VFR multi) on another path, they shouldn't deny Russ' student from the same limited rating, imo.
 
As an update, I am still working on this. After the initial "yes you can" advisement I received to my query I spoke with other colleagues and received a couple of dissenting opinions despite the guidance I received. As a result, I have kicked this all the way up to AFS-800.

This is one of the more unusual scenarios I've been presented with, and is extremely rare in airman certification (which, I've been told anecdotally, is the reason the ACS and relevant FAA Orders no longer reference this airman option.)

AFS-800 is where the certification SMEs are housed, so I should be able to get a "from the horse's mouth" answer at the end of this.
 
Glad I chased this one up the ladder. Thank everyone, for your patience... I learned something new here.

Dear Ryan Ferguson,

The responds to your email to the General Aviation and Commercial Division dated September 28, 2020.

In summary, you request whether a pilot applicant for an airplane multiengine rating must accomplish the instrument tasks identified in the Private Pilot airman certification standards (ACS). You describe that the applicant currently possesses a Private Pilot certificate with an airplane category, single engine land class rating and an instrument airplane rating. However, you describe that the applicant has no desire or intent to use his instrument privileges going forward.

Question: Does the applicant have to perform the instrument tasks identified in the Private Pilot ACS [FAA-S-ACS-6B (with Change 1)] when adding a multiengine rating to his existing pilot certificate? Specifically, X. Multiengine Operations C. One Engine Inoperative (Simulated) (solely by Reference to Instruments) During Straight-and-Level Flight and Turns (AMEL, AMES)" and D. Instrument Approach and Landing with an Inoperative Engine (Simulated) (solely by Reference to Instruments) (AMEL, AMES).

Answer: Yes. The following note is provided on page A-14 of the Private Pilot ACS for Airplane, for those adding a multiengine rating.

* Tasks C and D are not required for applicants who are instrument-rated and who have previously demonstrated instrument proficiency in a multiengine airplane or for applicants who do not hold an instrument rating.

Providing a "Multiengine limited to VFR only" limitation is not an option in the testing scenario you describe. The pilot applicant could surrender his instrument rating, and then Tasks C and D would not be required. Otherwise, the pilot applicant with an instrument-airplane rating would be required to demonstrate the tasks identified in C and D.

I suggest that you recommend to the applicant, to consider accomplishing those instrument tasks in pursuit of the additional multiengine class rating. The applicant will still need to accomplish the basic instrument tasks identified in the ACS. Acquiring those instrument skills will only provide for a more proficient multiengine rated pilot even when operating in visual flight conditions.

If you have any additional questions regarding this matter, please contact the General Aviation and Commercial Division at 9-AFS-800-Correspondence@faa.gov. or (202) 267-1100.
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dtuuri said:
There ya go, Russ. Have him turn in the instrument, take the multi and then retake the instrument in his single. Mission accomplished.
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Based on what Russ said in the OP, I don’t think the individual would be able to pass an Instrument check ride in a single.
 
EdFred said:
That's what I said in post 2.
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Yes, your source was correct and my first two initial advisements were incorrect. Thanks for bearing with me.
 
Thanks for tracking that down @Ryan F. !

My client ended up taking the full, regular checkride with the instrument approach, and passed.

We did do some extra work focusing specifically on instrument flying, both in his single-engine airplane and in the twin. His checkride was on a Friday. My OP was posted on the Tuesday before his checkride. We flew every day that week, including 3 flights after I asked the question and two flights the day before the checkride. He was really motivated! But we got him back proficient again and he did great on the checkride.
 
How do you even know what questions you got wrong to know you changed the answer?
 
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So I'm speaking here as a private pilot who has maintained instrument currency since getting the rating but would it be that hard to just do an hour or two of refresher training and just fly the approaches? He'd be able to log more required multi-engine dual while doing it.

I wouldn't want to surrender an instrument rating even if I didn't plan on using it- if nothing else you get an insurance discount.
 
Some people are really ****ty at instrument flying. Keep in mind that the twin trainer is likely a 6 pack with minimal GPS, enough to do the add on. They may be used to glass or an auto pilot, or may have decided they are VFR only....

but no, it isn't that much extra work to get current enough to recognize the failure under the hood, manuever and shoot a single engine approach.

But a lot of people doing a multi add on, have no intention of actually doing much with it. And it is expensive
 
I found the instrument work especially challenging during my multi training.

During my original training for the instrument training, my CFII had given me so much partial-panel work that I had gotten in the habit of not looking at the attitude indicator very often. During multi training, that made single-engine instrument approaches difficult, and I had to start focusing on the AI again!
 
Palmpilot said:
I found the instrument work especially challenging during my multi training.

During my original training for the instrument training, my CFII had given me so much partial-panel work that I had gotten in the habit of not looking at the attitude indicator very often. During multi training, that made single-engine instrument approaches difficult, and I had to start focusing on the AI again!
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I didn’t learn to use an AI until I had about three thousand hours of multi...10 or 12 checkrides’ worth.
 
RussR said:
Even with the edit, I still have no idea what you're asking. Which questions?
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I'm guessing he's using newest post versus going through forums and has responded to the wrong thread.
 
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