Multi Training - Instrument Approach OEI Training

[NealRomeoGolf]

I now have 7 hours of multi training. Was curious for those that have done their AMEL or if you are an MEI, where did you train for the engine failing during the instrument approach portion? Would also love to hear if you trained for one thing and got something different during the checkride.

 

[RussR]

As an MEI I have done quite a few multi ratings. I failed the engine at all of the above and more. Why be predictable? The engine failure isn't going to be. The applicant has to be able to handle a failure at any point.

 

[eman1200]

I don't remember exactly where but it was while being vectored prior to intercept, I think.

EDIT: sorry, this was on my actual checkride. during training, yeah, anywhere.

 

[kaiser]

I voted the turn to intercept, but in all of my multi training (including my 6 month "recurrents"), it's really been all over the place on the approach - Holds, right at the FAF, etc. Never really en-route.

 

[RyanB]

They always pulled it on me prior to the FAF. A mile or two beforehand it seemed. The DPE did it the same way IIRC.

 

[midwestpa24]

I had before, during, and on short final. You never know when.

 

[luvflyin]

It didn’t happen to me. I already had IR when getting the Multi. I don’t remember doing any IAP’s. Is this something new? @NealRomeoGolf , are you already IR?

 

[RussR]

It didn’t happen to me. I already had IR when getting the Multi. I don’t remember doing any IAP’s. Is this something new? @NealRomeoGolf , are you already IR?

If you are IR, there is one instrument task on the AMEL checkride (private or commercial), a single-engine instrument approach. If you are not IR, then you don't do it, but your multiengine rating will be limited to VFR only. Basically, at some point in time you have to demonstrate instrument proficiency in a twin with one engine inoperative to be allowed to operate a twin IFR.

It's been that way since at least 2007 when I did mine. It is often dreaded by multi trainees, but I found it to be one of the easier tasks, since at low power settings there isn't much adverse yaw to deal with.

 

[jbarrass]

All of the above. We did a lot of OEI approaches. On my check ride the DPE did it after the IAP and before established.

 

[MauleSkinner]

It's been that way since at least 2007 when I did mine.

And at least back to 1986.

 

[RussR]

And at least back to 1986.

Thanks, I figured it was much longer than 2007, but really wasn't in the mood for researching past PTSes!

 

[jbarrass]

.......It is often dreaded by multi trainees, but I found it to be one of the easier tasks, since at low power settings there isn't much adverse yaw to deal with.

Agreed. I only found it hard when he pulled it before I had the approach briefed and set up. It gets busy.

 

[luvflyin]

If you are IR, there is one instrument task on the AMEL checkride (private or commercial), a single-engine instrument approach. If you are not IR, then you don't do it, but your multiengine rating will be limited to VFR only. Basically, at some point in time you have to demonstrate instrument proficiency in a twin with one engine inoperative to be allowed to operate a twin IFR.

It's been that way since at least 2007 when I did mine. It is often dreaded by multi trainees, but I found it to be one of the easier tasks, since at low power settings there isn't much adverse yaw to deal with.

It was in 1978 I did mine. There is no VFR only restriction on my Certificate. I can see a logic why the rules changed. FWIW I would never have flown in the goo without have become proficient.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

The engine failure while turning onto the localizer is taking longer to master than I'd hoped. That's a lot going on all at once.

 

[RyanB]

The engine failure while turning onto the localizer is taking longer to master than I'd hoped. That's a lot going on all at once.

It does, it took me a few tries to really understand what the process is and how to stay ahead of everything. You’ll get it soon enough! I had something like 10.5hrs of multi time when I took my checkride.

 

[ja_user]

If you can't handle it enroute yet, it isn't time to start pulling it right before the FAF. It is a progression, unless you are doing bare minimum training.

 

[Initial Fix]

My checkride was outside the initial. Flew the approach and landed.

 

[RussR]

The engine failure while turning onto the localizer is taking longer to master than I'd hoped. That's a lot going on all at once.

You should be handling it in practice like you would in real life. Meaning, if you do not have time to do all the engine failure actions AND still get set up for the approach, you prioritize. Handle the emergency, then call ATC and request vectors back around for the approach if that's what you need. That shows good CRM versus trying to rush everything.

Even with an engine failure on takeoff, it's better to do the actions slow and accurate than fast and incorrectly.

 

[RussR]

It was in 1978 I did mine. There is no VFR only restriction on my Certificate. I can see a logic why the rules changed. FWIW I would never have flown in the goo without have become proficient.

Yes, from what I understand there were many changes in multiengine training around that time frame. Lots of accidents in training.

It didn’t happen to me. I already had IR when getting the Multi. I don’t remember doing any IAP’s. Is this something new?

I don't think something that's changed sometime in the last 46 years is necessarily "new". Sorry man...

 

[luvflyin]

Yes, from what I understand there were many changes in multiengine training around that time frame. Lots of accidents in training.



I don't think something that's changed sometime in the last 46 years is necessarily "new". Sorry man...

lol. Yeah, maybe new wasn’t the right word.

 

[RussR]

You should be handling it in practice like you would in real life. Meaning, if you do not have time to do all the engine failure actions AND still get set up for the approach, you prioritize. Handle the emergency, then call ATC and request vectors back around for the approach if that's what you need. That shows good CRM versus trying to rush everything.

Even with an engine failure on takeoff, it's better to do the actions slow and accurate than fast and incorrectly.

I wanted to expand a bit on this now that I'm at a real keyboard.

I used to do a lot of multiengine training. Without fail, the first time I'd fail an engine (which would be up at cruise altitude), the student would react instantly and start trying to throw all kinds of levers and switches right away. Invariably they would miss steps, get the wrong levers and switches in the wrong place, and just generally forget everything we talked about and ran through on the ground.

There's the old saying about the first action to take in a emergency is to wind your watch. Not because the winding of your watch is important, but because it slows you down, which allows you act properly and take deliberate action instead of reacting improperly to try to get everything done quickly.

Since almost nobody winds a watch anymore, I modify that to be basically, "take a deep breath, mutter the expletive of your choice, then get to work running the actions". I often will demonstrate this by failing the engine, taking the breath, saying something nice and slow and relaxed like "oh darn, there goes that engine again" and then running the action items - noting that the airplane didn't immediately enter a death spiral during my brief soliloquy.

This is true even on an engine failure on takeoff, where it seems counterintuitive. But it's far better to do the RIGHT actions slowly than the WRONG actions quickly. And really, we're talking just 2 or 3 seconds here - that's all it takes to get your brain out of the panic/react mode and into the deliberate, considered action mode.

Of course, as they get more experience and practice, they get quicker anyway.

I do exactly this as a pilot during my twice-annual recurrent training and checking (simulator and airplane). "Oh dang, looks like the left engine is on fire again. Okay, left condition lever - fuel cut-off, left prop lever - feather, left firewall fuel valve - close, fire extinguisher - actuate. Engine fire checklist please."

 

[Jim K]

I wanted to expand a bit on this now that I'm at a real keyboard.

I used to do a lot of multiengine training. Without fail, the first time I'd fail an engine (which would be up at cruise altitude), the student would react instantly and start trying to throw all kinds of levers and switches right away. Invariably they would miss steps, get the wrong levers and switches in the wrong place, and just generally forget everything we talked about and ran through on the ground.

There's the old saying about the first action to take in a emergency is to wind your watch. Not because the winding of your watch is important, but because it slows you down, which allows you act properly and take deliberate action instead of reacting improperly to try to get everything done quickly.

Since almost nobody winds a watch anymore, I modify that to be basically, "take a deep breath, mutter the expletive of your choice, then get to work running the actions". I often will demonstrate this by failing the engine, taking the breath, saying something nice and slow and relaxed like "oh darn, there goes that engine again" and then running the action items - noting that the airplane didn't immediately enter a death spiral during my brief soliloquy.

This is true even on an engine failure on takeoff, where it seems counterintuitive. But it's far better to do the RIGHT actions slowly than the WRONG actions quickly. And really, we're talking just 2 or 3 seconds here - that's all it takes to get your brain out of the panic/react mode and into the deliberate, considered action mode.

Of course, as they get more experience and practice, they get quicker anyway.

I do exactly this as a pilot during my twice-annual recurrent training and checking (simulator and airplane). "Oh dang, looks like the left engine is on fire again. Okay, left condition lever - fuel cut-off, left prop lever - feather, left firewall fuel valve - close, fire extinguisher - actuate. Engine fire checklist please."

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. I like it. @NealRomeoGolf actually has some watches he could wind.

- break-

I was discussing this with my favorite cfii/mei/141 chief pilot, and his response was that securing an engine while hand flying and intercepting an ILS was more than should be expected. His response was IRL you level out, declare the emergency, and ask for a vector while dealing with the engine.

The argument, as I understand it, from NRG's instructor was that in addition to the above, you're in IMC at Aspen (in a plane with a OEI ceiling of approximately granite-thousand feet), so you can't maintain altitude and get vectors; you have to fly the approach within standards. That all seemed a bit extreme to me, although I'll admit it's possible.

 

[RussR]

The argument, as I understand it, from NRG's instructor was that in addition to the above, you're in IMC at Aspen (in a plane with a OEI ceiling of approximately granite-thousand feet), so you can't maintain altitude and get vectors; you have to fly the approach within standards. That all seemed a bit extreme to me, although I'll admit it's possible.

Hah, yes because you're flying your no-autopilot Seminole into Aspen in hard IMC - which would mean it's probably winter, and therefore likely you're flying into icing in a non-FIKI airplane as well. Some scenarios, in an attempt to be realistic, do tend to strain credibility when all the factors are considered.

 

[dtuuri]

I now have 7 hours of multi training. Was curious for those that have done their AMEL or if you are an MEI, where did you train for the engine failing during the instrument approach portion? Would also love to hear if you trained for one thing and got something different during the checkride.

There are about eight or nine places during a typical flight test in a light twin which require a modified OEI procedure or mindset. You should be thinking through them as you transition from one phase to the next, so you're ready for the inevitable:

​

1) Before gear retraction on takeoff​

2) After gear retraction on takeoff, but obstacles are concerning​

3) During normal climbout or cruise where time is not of the essence​

4) Maneuvering: a) stall recovery; b) during steep turn​

5) Interception of a localizer/final approach course where course interception is the main priority​

6) Short final, where a safe landing is already assured​

7) Missed approach from DH/MDA​

8) During a rejected landing from the landing configuration​

​

I'll leave it for you to mull over how they might be slightly or drastically different but be prepared for them as you go.

​

 

[jsstevens]

The MEI did a variety of things. The DPE failed it before we started the approach.

 

[bbchien]

When teaching for MEIs, my average is 25 OEIs. They can be anywhere compatible with safety.

B.