Multi-engine VMC Handling

woxof

Pre-takeoff checklist
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woxof
This is a quote from an article I recently read which I found interesting:

"Lowering the nose to protect airspeed decay is critical. Pilots today are learning their multiengine skills in airplanes like the Piper Seminole and the Beechcraft Duchess. These airplanes have benign engine-out handling and large-chord vertical stabilizers which reduce the yaw dynamics when an engine fails. As a result, the critical nature of the VMC event has been downplayed in recent years. Higher performance airplanes with short-chord vertical stabilizers can exhibit very violent VMC characteristics, up to and including a snap roll."

Could anybody give some personal information on the different handling characteristics of various twins and differences between them.

Thanks.
 
Wow that's a big subject. Something that few consider. Engines seldom totally die. Sometimes they surge dramatically before failure. That adds a lot more difficulty in handling. The differences' between say a Convair 580 and an Aerostar are not even in the same universe.
 
Light Twins designed for training will generally lose control like you see in a Vmc demo.

Light Twins designed for transportation will generally have more violent Vmc loss of control because the vertical stabilizer actually stalls rather than simply running out of authority.

None of this is much of an issue if you maintain at least blue line until landing is assured when operating engine-out.



 
This is a quote from an article I recently read which I found interesting:

"Lowering the nose to protect airspeed decay is critical. Pilots today are learning their multiengine skills in airplanes like the Piper Seminole and the Beechcraft Duchess. These airplanes have benign engine-out handling and large-chord vertical stabilizers which reduce the yaw dynamics when an engine fails. As a result, the critical nature of the VMC event has been downplayed in recent years. Higher performance airplanes with short-chord vertical stabilizers can exhibit very violent VMC characteristics, up to and including a snap roll."

Could anybody give some personal information on the different handling characteristics of various twins and differences between them.

Thanks.
Firstly, the author lost me when he stated, "Pilots today are learning their multiengine skills in airplanes like the Piper Seminole and the Beechcraft Duchess." When was that article written? Both of those airplanes entered production almost 45 years ago!

Prior to the introduction of the Seminole and Duchess (and continuing for decades afterwards) a lot of ME flight training was conducted in Piper Apaches, Aztecs, Seneca Is, and Twin Comanches, Cessna 310s, and Beech Barons and Travel Airs. Of those, the Apache, Aztec, and Seneca are relatively "benign," to use the author's term, whereas the Twin Comanche and Baron/Travel Air possess certain characteristics that proved to be problematic. Piper addressed the Twin Comanche's issue by increasing the published Vmc by, I think, about 10mph. I'm not aware of any such efforts to tame the Baron/Travel Air. The Baron has much in common with the Travel Air but has more power and a different vertical stabilizer. Both Baron and Travel Air are somewhat notorious and Vmc demonstrations in them should only be undertaken with great care. My understanding is that the Army had used B55 Barons as ME trainers and lost quite a few to Vmc-related loss-of-control. It may have been the Baron that the author had in mind when he wrote the article you refer to, and I agree based on my own experiences that the Baron/Travel Air can be less forgiving than the Seminole or Duchess.

That said, it's a stretch to claim that "...the critical nature of the VMC event has been downplayed in recent years." The point of the Vmc demonstration is not to exceed the limits of controllability--the point is to recognize the behavior of the aircraft as it approaches the limit of controllability and to take immediate corrective action before control is lost. Therefore the author's implied connection of "benign" and "downplayed" is tenuous, as the goal of the maneuver can be realized in any of the named aircraft. Practicing Vmc demonstrations in an airplane that exhibits "very violent VMC characteristics" seems rather unwise when other, more docile trainers are available--trainers that allow Vmc demonstrations to be conducted as intended while still being forgiving enough to allow recovery from typical student mistakes without viciously snapping into an inverted spin. When necessary to demonstrate Vmc in an airplane like the Baron, instructors will often employ techniques such as blocking the rudder pedals to limit rudder travel in order to artificially make the maneuver more benign. This practice effectively makes the Baron more like the Seminole and Duchess, which tends to contradict the author's point while at the same time increases the instructor's chances of actually cashing the paycheck that he risked his life to earn.

To answer the specific question you asked, every twin is different. I haven't flown them all, nor have I explored actual Vmc behaviors in many most that I have flown. I can generalize by stating that, within my limited sample set, higher-performance twins tend to react more abruptly and therefore are more demanding of timely corrective action. I have not experienced a stall of the vertical stabilizer--at least, not that I recognized as such--or a full-on departure from controlled flight during a Vmc training maneuver. It is worth remembering that the Seminole and Duchess were conceived and designed to be safe, forgiving trainers, whereas aircraft such as the Aerostar and MU-2 were conceived and designed to carry a certain payload a certain distance at a certain speed for a certain cost. The only Vmc demonstration I have personally, um, attempted, in a truly high-performance aircraft was done using a simulator (you can't get much more benign than a box that's bolted to the floor). I doubt that the flight characteristics of the simulator accurately mimic the actual aircraft in that flight condition, so no conclusions can be drawn.
 
Firstly, the author lost me when he stated, "Pilots today are learning their multiengine skills in airplanes like the Piper Seminole and the Beechcraft Duchess." When was that article written? Both of those airplanes entered production almost 45 years ago!

I'm with ya, I did my multi engine training in a Seminole 30 years ago.
 
Firstly, the author lost me when he stated, "Pilots today are learning their multiengine skills in airplanes like the Piper Seminole and the Beechcraft Duchess." When was that article written? Both of those airplanes entered production almost 45 years ago!

Prior to the introduction of the Seminole and Duchess (and continuing for decades afterwards) a lot of ME flight training was conducted in Piper Apaches, Aztecs, Seneca Is, and Twin Comanches, Cessna 310s, and Beech Barons and Travel Airs. Of those, the Apache, Aztec, and Seneca are relatively "benign," to use the author's term, whereas the Twin Comanche and Baron/Travel Air possess certain characteristics that proved to be problematic. Piper addressed the Twin Comanche's issue by increasing the published Vmc by, I think, about 10mph. I'm not aware of any such efforts to tame the Baron/Travel Air. The Baron has much in common with the Travel Air but has more power and a different vertical stabilizer. Both Baron and Travel Air are somewhat notorious and Vmc demonstrations in them should only be undertaken with great care. My understanding is that the Army had used B55 Barons as ME trainers and lost quite a few to Vmc-related loss-of-control. It may have been the Baron that the author had in mind when he wrote the article you refer to, and I agree based on my own experiences that the Baron/Travel Air can be less forgiving than the Seminole or Duchess.

That said, it's a stretch to claim that "...the critical nature of the VMC event has been downplayed in recent years." The point of the Vmc demonstration is not to exceed the limits of controllability--the point is to recognize the behavior of the aircraft as it approaches the limit of controllability and to take immediate corrective action before control is lost. Therefore the author's implied connection of "benign" and "downplayed" is tenuous, as the goal of the maneuver can be realized in any of the named aircraft. Practicing Vmc demonstrations in an airplane that exhibits "very violent VMC characteristics" seems rather unwise when other, more docile trainers are available--trainers that allow Vmc demonstrations to be conducted as intended while still being forgiving enough to allow recovery from typical student mistakes without viciously snapping into an inverted spin. When necessary to demonstrate Vmc in an airplane like the Baron, instructors will often employ techniques such as blocking the rudder pedals to limit rudder travel in order to artificially make the maneuver more benign. This practice effectively makes the Baron more like the Seminole and Duchess, which tends to contradict the author's point while at the same time increases the instructor's chances of actually cashing the paycheck that he risked his life to earn.

To answer the specific question you asked, every twin is different. I haven't flown them all, nor have I explored actual Vmc behaviors in many most that I have flown. I can generalize by stating that, within my limited sample set, higher-performance twins tend to react more abruptly and therefore are more demanding of timely corrective action. I have not experienced a stall of the vertical stabilizer--at least, not that I recognized as such--or a full-on departure from controlled flight during a Vmc training maneuver. It is worth remembering that the Seminole and Duchess were conceived and designed to be safe, forgiving trainers, whereas aircraft such as the Aerostar and MU-2 were conceived and designed to carry a certain payload a certain distance at a certain speed for a certain cost. The only Vmc demonstration I have personally, um, attempted, in a truly high-performance aircraft was done using a simulator (you can't get much more benign than a box that's bolted to the floor). I doubt that the flight characteristics of the simulator accurately mimic the actual aircraft in that flight condition, so no conclusions can be drawn.
Thanks,

Nice reply. Much appreciated.
 
back in the 70 s and early 80s I was involved in ME training at Fullerton ca. then you would actually feather and shut a engine down and let the student fly it to see how they feel on one engine all our trainers had propeller accumulaters so we’re easy to start , we did this at 6 or 7 K feet if you have never flown a twin on a feathered engine you would be surprised how much better they fly than one at zero thrust , Fullerton airport had the accident that changed the procedure a Barron was departing on a training flight the instructor pulled the right engine and it rolled over and went through a warehouse roof , after that no more engine shut downs it was all zero thrust I have done what you might call a VMC demonstration in 310 , barons ,apaches but never a full VMC stall , when your high enough to do the demonstration stall when it’s close you pull the power off the good engine and push the nose over , you don’t want to do afull VMC stall , at least I don’t , blue line and above is your best friend in a twin , any twin I have ever owned I went to altitude and shut a engine down to see how it felt , with a pilot and half fuel they all fly fine , I have had 3 actual shut downs 2 in a 310 and one in a piper apache with 180 hp engines in Mexico with my son and 2 friends we flew about 80 miles to the bay of LA and landed the propeller had a broken bearing we took the bus home and got the plane a week later. So they do break Sometimes
 
There is more to it than just VMC. I am not a multi engine pilot but a serious crash occurred at KEZF about 10-12 years ago involving a fully loaded twin Bonanza resulting in six dead. This accident affected me because that was my home airport at the time. KEZF is just under 3000 ft long with obstacles at both ends and it is deceptively short and dangerous on hot days. The Bonanza had TWO high time pilots, and they made every mistake possible. It was a hot day with light wind straight up the runway, poor fuel management, poor landing technique, and a plane that flipped over after a fuel related engine loss on failed go around attempt! They didn't even try to use a short field approach which was definitely called for, and they didn't go into a much longer runway just 10 miles away. It was all very sad and totally avoidable.
 
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Yes most of those kind of accidents are avoidable , I have thousands of multi engine hours in many different twins, getting the failed engine feathered is the first priority and depending on weight most of them will do fine but from lift off to blue line and above you Better be ready , the turbo props are different I had a turbo commander with dash 10 engines it had auto feather so a lost engine was a non event really but I only did it in a simulater , I really like twin engine airplanes but in retirement they are to much money and maintenance, I wish I could still afford one
 
Thanks,

Nice reply. Much appreciated.
If I were smart, I could have made the point in one brief paragraph. But I'm glad that you found the perspective useful and appreciate the feedback.
 
Thank You It’s always fun to talk about airplanes Tom
 
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