Moving back to Europe. What to do with the plane? (Long Post)

[Sluggo63]

Ok. I have about a year to figure this out, but I want to start the brainstorming now before it's crunch time.

My wife and I lived in Europe for my work a few years back. We enjoyed it and promised that we'd return for a second round of living there. The opportunity just arose to bid back over there, and although it's a little earlier than we were thinking, we figured now is probably better than waiting for a few more years, since we're not getting younger, and our family (grandkids) isn't getting any smaller.

All good things ... except when we returned to the US last time, we bought our dream plane (Seneca III).

Now the question is, "what do we do with the plane?" Ideally, I'd like to keep it so when we return to the US we still own it. With that in mind, here's the options that I've come up with.

(Skip to 3b. to for the TL/DR crux of my question)

1. Sell the plane outright. This isn't really my first choice. We enjoy the plane, it's everything that we're looking for in a personal airplane. I'd be willing to do it, but I wouldn't be too excited about it.

2. Pickle the plane. Again, not an ideal solution. Living in the AZ desert, the plane would fare better than it would if I was in, say, Florida, but I'm not excited about the prospect of pickling it and leaving it to sit for a few years being unflown, especially because all I have right now is a covered tie-down, and no hangar in sight. There would be the possibility of flying it a few times a year when I came back to visit family, but that would involve un-pickling to fly it, then re-pickling when I left again.

3. Have someone else fly the plane. This is where I'm leaning towards, and really what I want ideas about on how to structure the deal so it's equitable for me and the person who would be flying the plane. There's only really one guy who I would ultimately trust with this. He's a long time friend from my AF days and active GA pilot. He's the guy who flew with me back to AZ from ME when I bought the plane. He and I have similar ideas on care and maintenance and he would be a perfect partner, if he didn't live on the other side of the country. So, ideally I'd somehow have him fly the plane for the 2-4 years while I'm in Europe and then when I get back, regain control of the plane. There are two ways I thought about doing this, but I'm sure there's more.

3a. Lease the airplane. One option I've considered is to have him lease the aircraft from me. He would pay me a flat fee monthly, and a dry rate for hours flown. If we go this route, how would we address things like hangar, oil changes, annual inspections, scheduled/unscheduled maintenance, or upgrades? I'm assuming in a lease type deal I would pay for all that since it would presumably be rolled into the lease cost/dry rate.

3b. Sell an equity share. The last in the list, is the one I think I'd like the most, but the one I have the most questions about on how to structure it. Bring my friend in as a partner. Close to 50/50, but I would like to have some control (51/49) and final say-so about the maintenance of the plane and ultimately I would like to ensure the ability to get the airplane back entirely when I return.
This is how I would envision it working, but I have no idea. We come up with a value (either using an appraiser/Vref) for the airplane and he pays me 49% of that value. We both pay in monthly to cover fixed costs like databases, annual, insurance, etc. at a 49/51 split. Maintenance gets paid 49/51, etc. He pays a dry rate into the engine/prop/oil fund. When I return, we do another valuation and I give him 49% of the new value to buy his half out and get possession of the plane.
​

So... what am I missing? Am I making this too complicated? Too simple? How would you go about handling this if you were in my shoes?

Thanks in advance for reading all that and for your ideas!

 

[Bill]

Have you asked your friend which of these appeals to him as well? Id' think you guys can get together and work something out that's good for the both of you/

 

[Sluggo63]

Have you asked your friend which of these appeals to him as well? Id' think you guys can get together and work something out that's good for the both of you/

Yeah. I have. He's willing to do the 49/51 route, but after talking with a mutual friend of ours about this, the mutual friend somehow thinks the the 49% guy is getting screwed in the deal because he'd have to pay for half of say, an engine overhaul, and then gets the plane bought out form under him when I get back. I don't think this is the case since a new engine would (more than likely) increase the value of the plane and when I got back, his 49% of the future value would be higher so he'd be getting back more than he paid so that would reflect getting a (partial) return on his part of the overhaul.

Am I thinking about this right? Or is our friend right and my future co-owner is getting the short end of the stick. The last thing I want to do is sour a long-term friendship over half an airplane.

 

[Bill]

I don't think this is the case since a new engine would (more than likely) increase the value of the plane and when I got back, his 49% of the future value would be higher so he'd be getting back more than he paid so that would reflect getting a (partial) return on his part of the overhaul.

Am I thinking about this right? Or is our friend right and my future co-owner is getting the short end of the stick. The last thing I want to do is sour a long-term friendship over half an airplane.

Sounds right. The VREF on our plane has gone up about $40k due to a recent engine overhaul and a partial avionics upgrade.

 

[jetlag7]

Why not bring the plane to Europe?

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[NealRomeoGolf]

Why not bring the plane to Europe?

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Viele Kopfschmertzen.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I would guess you are going back to Germany because I believe you and I were there at the same time during your last round. I had my Archer at the time. I did option 3. I gave a CFI full access to the plane and asked him to fly it as best as he could (he is not a full time CFI - he runs a construction business and is very busy). His part was to pay hangar rent and fuel. I paid everything else. He probably babies the plane more than I do so I trusted him to take care of it. Worked out great for us. He now flies my Lance occasionally and has continued to pay the hangar rent as part of our agreement to have access to the plane.

My arrangement is probably very favorable to him, but I just wanted my plane to be cared for and flown.

Is your airplane FIKI? I've been dreaming of FIKI Senecas.....

 

[Jim K]

Option 4:
Bring it to Illinois, @NealRomeoGolf & I will keep it exercised for you. BMI is halfway between us. That should work.

 

[wayneda40]

Why not bring the plane to Europe?

I'm with @jetlag7... Duh, just fly the plane to Europe!! Since it's an "N" registration, shouldn't be that difficult paperwork-wise.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I'm with @jetlag7... Duh, just fly the plane to Europe!! Since it's an "N" registration, shouldn't be that difficult paperwork-wise.

Have you ever flown in Europe?

 

[eman1200]

well, I'm currently building time in a seneca II, I could just as easily build time in a III. no joke, I'd care for the plane and keep her flying. hit me up!

 

[wayneda40]

Have you ever flown in Europe?

No, I haven't... but I have flown in Mexico, Canada, Central America, South America, the Bahamas, Cuba, and the Caribbean... without hassle. Granted there would likely be some extra hassle for a semi-permanent presence outside the USA. Additionally, flying VFR in some countries seems rather bizarre (esp the UK!!). However, from my experience, IFR is pretty much standardized.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If it were me, I’d do a variation of 3a with your friend…lease him the plane for a small dry rate that covers primarily engine and prop reserves, and have him pay for annuals, hangar, insurance, etc. If he breaks something, he fixes it. If something comes up beyond normal scheduled maintenance like, say, a prop overhaul, you cover it.

Since the goal is really for you to keep your airplane, treat it like it’s yours. Your friend would be doing you a favor by keeping it exercised, and unless he flies it enough to wear it out, you’ll get essentially the same plane back without having to pay storage or normal upkeep for the duration of your stay in Europe.

If he sees enough benefit to having the airplane temporarily, those expenses should be reasonable to him. If they aren’t, maybe there’s a middle ground that’s agreeable to you both. This isn’t a “business transaction”, it’s one friend helping another out.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

No, I haven't... but I have flown in Mexico, Canada, Central America, South America, the Bahamas, Cuba, and the Caribbean... without hassle. Granted there would likely be some extra hassle for a semi-permanent presence outside the USA. Additionally, flying VFR in some countries seems rather bizarre (esp the UK!!), however IFR is pretty much standardized globally.

Take your flying costs and multiply by 3. The regulation over there plus landing fees for EVERY landing gets old pretty fast. Most flying in Germany is glider or very small planes.

 

[rsleeds]

Yeah. I have. He's willing to do the 49/51 route, but after talking with a mutual friend of ours about this, the mutual friend somehow thinks the the 49% guy is getting screwed in the deal because he'd have to pay for half of say, an engine overhaul, and then gets the plane bought out form under him when I get back. I don't think this is the case since a new engine would (more than likely) increase the value of the plane and when I got back, his 49% of the future value would be higher so he'd be getting back more than he paid so that would reflect getting a (partial) return on his part of the overhaul.

Am I thinking about this right? Or is our friend right and my future co-owner is getting the short end of the stick. The last thing I want to do is sour a long-term friendship over half an airplane.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to what type of a deal Friend #1 is happy with - if he's fine bearing a percentage of all the costs and risk and knows you will buy him out down the road, deal done probably. However, the mutual friend is also right in my opinion. You really want Friend #1 to do 100% of taking care of your plane while you're gone - exercise it, babysit it, keep it in pristine shape, etc. I'd think for all that effort/responsibility, the benefit of getting to use the plane for a reasonable Dry Rate would be a fair deal. If something major occurs (say overhaul) you can decide how to proceed. You get back, plane is in the same or better shape than it is when you left, and the two of you can enjoy another trip taking it back home. Just two sides of the coin to consider.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Just to put some perspective on my thoughts above, I’ve been involved in two “partnerships”, both with my brother.

the first was when my Maule was wrecked in a storm, and I decided I needed a tail dragger to play with while the Maule was being rebuilt. My brother and I bought a 150 taildragger conversion, and I flew it/paid for everything until my Maule was flying again (about a year), and then dropped it off with my brother. He paid for everything until he decided he was done with it, and we sold it.

the second was when I lost my job and moved to Kansas…the Maule was waiting for engine overhaul, and I had saved the money up, but was recently married and my wife and I decided not to put money into airplanes until the family budget was figured out. My brother suggested that he get the engine overhauled and take the airplane until we got settled, “and we’ll figure it out then”.

in both cases, there was almost no one else that I would enter into a partnership with on such loose terms, but basically we both agreed that if worse came to worse, we could both survive a complete loss of the equity. And in both cases, I felt like my brother was doing me a huge favor, while the financial issues were simply what was convenient for both of us.

 

[Brad Z]

With airplane prices where they are today, I'd really have a hard time not justifying selling at top dollar.

That said, if you have the plane set up as your dream plane, I could understand not wanting to liquidate it.

One other option to consider is relocating the aircraft to an area with cheap hangars and leave it pickled and hangared for the duration.

 

[bflynn]

An additional option - sell the plane with a contract no sell/option to buy it back in 4 years. You'll have to negotiate the details of money and interest. That still involves trust of the friend, but it's cleaner from a legal standpoint.

If not, then it can get complicated. For example...who will pay for maintenance? Wear? Tear? Annuals? Prop strike?

 

[OneCharlieTango]

Life is complicated enough without owning an airplane 4000 miles away. A partnership makes it even more complicated and owning 51% means it’s all on you. Meanwhile, you’re trying to enjoy some period of years in Europe.

Sell it. You don’t know whether you’ll want to mess with an airplane when you come back. If you do, there will be another one here waiting for you, likely selling for less than you could get for yours right now.

 

[Salty]

If your target goal is to own 100% of the aircraft I wouldn't sell a share. Make an agreement for him to pay hangar and fuel costs and if he breaks something or lease it to him for $x an hour, whatever you mutually think is fair. shifting around ownership temporarily is messy and not much of an advantage.

 

[eman1200]

With airplane prices where they are today, I'd really have a hard time not justifying selling at top dollar.

That said, if you have the plane set up as your dream plane, I could understand not wanting to liquidate it.

One other option to consider is relocating the aircraft to an area with cheap hangars and leave it pickled and hangared for the duration.

after reading 2-4 year time period, yeah, I agree with selling as a good option (or letting eman watch over it). def don't agree with letting it sit.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Ooh, I thought of a good reason to let me fly it for you (but not at BMI @Jim K ). My mechanic cared for Doc Bruce's Seneca for many years. He could take care of yours. Just saying......

 

[wayne]

With you planning on being in Europe for a few years I'd say selling would be the best option. That's especially true with the market for used planes being up so much right now.

If the configuration of your Seneca III is special for you, something that would be difficult/expensive to recreate, then maybe the lease option to your friend would be good.

I agree with others that pickling it is the worse of the options.

 

[kaiser]

If it were me, and the plane had some sentimental value - I’d dry lease it and add stipulations on how the contract ends and how it should be maintained. Else, sell it and hope GA will still be around in 4 years (it will be). This very well may be the top of the market.

Option 4:
Bring it to Illinois, @NealRomeoGolf & I will keep it exercised for you. BMI is halfway between us. That should work.

And don’t listen to @Jim K , he already has a plane that’s a huge distraction. Rather let some poor sod like me just starting to enter the market take care of it

 

[Sluggo63]

Why not bring the plane to Europe?

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Believe me, I've thought about it but ...

Viele Kopfschmertzen.

... what @NealRomeoGolf said. Without doing too much research on it, I think it would be more hassle than it's worth given this is a temporary (2-5 year) assignment. I'll be close to Aachen, and they have a GA airport there, but I'd have to track down a FAA blessed shop for annuals/maintenance, etc. Still a chance, but an outside one that I do it.

 

[Sluggo63]

I would guess you are going back to Germany because I believe you and I were there at the same time during your last round. I had my Archer at the time. I did option 3. I gave a CFI full access to the plane and asked him to fly it as best as he could (he is not a full time CFI - he runs a construction business and is very busy). His part was to pay hangar rent and fuel. I paid everything else. He probably babies the plane more than I do so I trusted him to take care of it. Worked out great for us. He now flies my Lance occasionally and has continued to pay the hangar rent as part of our agreement to have access to the plane.

My arrangement is probably very favorable to him, but I just wanted my plane to be cared for and flown.

Yeah, back to Germany. I remember you and I were there at the same time. We enjoyed our time there and were always going to return. Last time we did 3 years, this time maybe only two. We'll see.

I like your idea, but I actually think that my buddy may want to be a partner. There's a chance that when we move back, we'll be living near each other, so then it's a no-brainer. The partnership would be the way to go and we would just continue it when we return. He and I are having lunch on Saturday and so we'll start hashing out more definite ideas then.

Is your airplane FIKI? I've been dreaming of FIKI Senecas.....

Yeah, it is. It's FIKI, has weather radar in addition to ADSB/Sirius, and also air conditioning. The whole time I was looking for planes, those three items were on my "wish list," but finding one with all three was like a unicorn. I could usually only find two of the three things. Then this one popped up and I think I got a good deal on it. I suppose time will tell.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Start a PoA flying club and sell shares. Who's in?!

 

[Sluggo63]

Option 4:
Bring it to Illinois, @NealRomeoGolf & I will keep it exercised for you. BMI is halfway between us. That should work.

Funny enough, that's where my friend lives. Although he's going to start splitting his time between IL & FL.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Yeah, back to Germany. I remember you and I were there at the same time. We enjoyed our time there and were always going to return. Last time we did 3 years, this time maybe only two. We'll see.

I like your idea, but I actually think that my buddy may want to be a partner. There's a chance that when we move back, we'll be living near each other, so then it's a no-brainer. The partnership would be the way to go and we would just continue it when we return. He and I are having lunch on Saturday and so we'll start hashing out more definite ideas then.

Yeah, it is. It's FIKI, has weather radar in addition to ADSB/Sirius, and also air conditioning. The whole time I was looking for planes, those three items were on my "wish list," but finding one with all three was like a unicorn. I could usually only find two of the three things. Then this one popped up and I think I got a good deal on it. I suppose time will tell.

Glad you enjoyed it enough to go back. We were pretty miserable, but a lot of that was influenced by my job and how many hours I was working.

If your buddy doesn't work out....let me know.

 

[Sluggo63]

well, I'm currently building time in a seneca II, I could just as easily build time in a III. no joke, I'd care for the plane and keep her flying. hit me up!

Ooh, I thought of a good reason to let me fly it for you (but not at BMI @Jim K ). My mechanic cared for Doc Bruce's Seneca for many years. He could take care of yours. Just saying......

If it were me, and the plane had some sentimental value - I’d dry lease it and add stipulations on how the contract ends and how it should be maintained. Else, sell it and hope GA will still be around in 4 years (it will be). This very well may be the top of the market.


And don’t listen to @Jim K , he already has a plane that’s a huge distraction. Rather let some poor sod like me just starting to enter the market take care of it

Man, this is a great community. All you guys stepping up to take care of my baby! You all are the best!

Honestly, since it is my baby, there's really only one guy that I would entrust her to. I'm sure all you guys are great and would take good care of her, but... I have a 25+ year history with my buddy. If I can't work it out with him, I'm probably going to end up selling it and looking for a new plane when I get back.

 

[Sluggo63]

Glad you enjoyed it enough to go back. We were pretty miserable, but a lot of that was influenced by my job and how many hours I was working.

If your buddy doesn't work out....let me know.

Yeah, I remember you saying that you didn't enjoy your time there. I'm sure it had a lot to do with the work environment. I was there just as a pilot so I went to work and flew my trips, but when I was not working, my wife and I just travelled around. It would have been a much different experience if I was working a 9-5 there, I'm sure.

 

[RyanB]

If you still have an interest in keeping it, which it sounds like you do, I’d arrange for someone else (a trusted parter or your buddy) to enjoy it in the mean time. It’s a win for both of you and seems to be the best choice, unless you just need the money out of it prior to your departure.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Yeah, I remember you saying that you didn't enjoy your time there. I'm sure it had a lot to do with the work environment. I was there just as a pilot so I went to work and flew my trips, but when I was not working, my wife and I just travelled around. It would have been a much different experience if I was working a 9-5 there, I'm sure.

9 to 5. That's funny. Try 7a to 8p or 9p....or 10.

 

[eman1200]

Man, this is a great community. All you guys stepping up to take care of my baby! You all are the best!

Honestly, since it is my baby, there's really only one guy that I would entrust her to. I'm sure all you guys are great and would take good care of her, but... I have a 25+ year history with my buddy. If I can't work it out with him, I'm probably going to end up selling it and looking for a new plane when I get back.

Work out a fair price for someone to ‘own it’ for 2-4 years and let’s see what happens. Also, this thread is useless without pics of the SIII

 

[TCABM]

Look at the options differently; what setup induces the partner to fly the most since the only other outcome if you keep it is a plane that doesn’t fly and doesn’t generate income.

I like how our partnership handles it; there is an annual assessment that covers fixed expenses, projected maintenance based on previous year(s) flying and an engine and upgrades reserve. Each partner pays $2300 in this assessment and, in return receives a credit for 20hrs dry flight time. Beyond that 20 hrs, each hour is billed at $65/hr dry. We do recalculate the assessment each year based off previous year expenses.

Our share cost to purchase is based on the insured value of the plane plus the cash and divided by number of shares. In your case, add those two values and multiply by .49 to derive a 49% stake in the plane.

 

[luvflyin]

Ok. I have about a year to figure this out, but I want to start the brainstorming now before it's crunch time.

My wife and I lived in Europe for my work a few years back. We enjoyed it and promised that we'd return for a second round of living there. The opportunity just arose to bid back over there, and although it's a little earlier than we were thinking, we figured now is probably better than waiting for a few more years, since we're not getting younger, and our family (grandkids) isn't getting any smaller.

All good things ... except when we returned to the US last time, we bought our dream plane (Seneca III).

Now the question is, "what do we do with the plane?" Ideally, I'd like to keep it so when we return to the US we still own it. With that in mind, here's the options that I've come up with.

(Skip to 3b. to for the TL/DR crux of my question)

1. Sell the plane outright. This isn't really my first choice. We enjoy the plane, it's everything that we're looking for in a personal airplane. I'd be willing to do it, but I wouldn't be too excited about it.

2. Pickle the plane. Again, not an ideal solution. Living in the AZ desert, the plane would fare better than it would if I was in, say, Florida, but I'm not excited about the prospect of pickling it and leaving it to sit for a few years being unflown, especially because all I have right now is a covered tie-down, and no hangar in sight. There would be the possibility of flying it a few times a year when I came back to visit family, but that would involve un-pickling to fly it, then re-pickling when I left again.

3. Have someone else fly the plane. This is where I'm leaning towards, and really what I want ideas about on how to structure the deal so it's equitable for me and the person who would be flying the plane. There's only really one guy who I would ultimately trust with this. He's a long time friend from my AF days and active GA pilot. He's the guy who flew with me back to AZ from ME when I bought the plane. He and I have similar ideas on care and maintenance and he would be a perfect partner, if he didn't live on the other side of the country. So, ideally I'd somehow have him fly the plane for the 2-4 years while I'm in Europe and then when I get back, regain control of the plane. There are two ways I thought about doing this, but I'm sure there's more.

3a. Lease the airplane. One option I've considered is to have him lease the aircraft from me. He would pay me a flat fee monthly, and a dry rate for hours flown. If we go this route, how would we address things like hangar, oil changes, annual inspections, scheduled/unscheduled maintenance, or upgrades? I'm assuming in a lease type deal I would pay for all that since it would presumably be rolled into the lease cost/dry rate.

3b. Sell an equity share. The last in the list, is the one I think I'd like the most, but the one I have the most questions about on how to structure it. Bring my friend in as a partner. Close to 50/50, but I would like to have some control (51/49) and final say-so about the maintenance of the plane and ultimately I would like to ensure the ability to get the airplane back entirely when I return.
This is how I would envision it working, but I have no idea. We come up with a value (either using an appraiser/Vref) for the airplane and he pays me 49% of that value. We both pay in monthly to cover fixed costs like databases, annual, insurance, etc. at a 49/51 split. Maintenance gets paid 49/51, etc. He pays a dry rate into the engine/prop/oil fund. When I return, we do another valuation and I give him 49% of the new value to buy his half out and get possession of the plane.
​

So... what am I missing? Am I making this too complicated? Too simple? How would you go about handling this if you were in my shoes?

Thanks in advance for reading all that and for your ideas!

Sell it to me for $1. I'll take care of it and sell it back to you for $1 when you get back. I promise.

 

[Rushie]

You ask what I would do if I were in your shoes? Probably not go to Germany. They seem to be ramping up the authoritarianism again. But if I did go anyway, what are the chances I might like it enough to stay longer, or even permanently? The authoritarianism is also being ramped up here, so who knows which will be worse in two or four years? So I guess I’m saying is there a chance for whatever reason you and your wife will want to stay longer or indefinitely? I didn’t understand the relevance of the number of grandkids, are they in Germany or here?

Also what are your ages and health status? What are the odds of losing your medical? How far are you from quitting flying? If getting older, less healthy, I would lean to selling it, because greater chance of needing to sell anyway by the time you return.

But if still (relatively) young and healthy and looking at another decade or two or three of flying and this really is the unicorn of planes, I like the “lease it to the friend” plan as opposed to joint ownership but if it works better to be partners then okay. But, what is his situation? Health? Too busy to fly it as much as he promises? You’ve known him many years but how close have you been recently? He may have changed.

I lean heavily against owning it from a distance, and the liability that comes with someone else flying it. The only reason I’d do it is because it is the “perfect” plane and I tend to hold on to things like that.

Sell high now and profit. But will prices be even higher in 2-4 years and be out of reach? It’s a gamble either way.

 

[SkyDog58]

I like the idea of letting @eman1200 have it while you are gone. He could take it to NC and keep it flying. I am also certain that he could find at least one other person to help out with that onerous task.

 

[BladeSlap]

Just curious what’s the appeal to Europe?

Some of it seems pretty, but no guns, GA is priced out, and they don’t have a bill of rights like the US?

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Just curious what’s the appeal to Europe?

Some of it seems pretty, but no guns, GA is priced out, and they don’t have a bill of rights like the US?

History, ability to travel to multiple countries within a few hours. While we lived there we visited London, Paris, Prague, Frankfurt, Munich, Brussels, The Hague, the Austrian countryside and more and the worst of all that was a few 2 hour plane tickets. I just wish my work schedule had allowed for more exploring. Never got to Rome, Madrid or Norway.