Mounting a winch

deyoung

deyoung

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Chris
I want to mount a winch on my concrete hangar floor so I don't have to struggle to push the plane uphill into the hangar and over the track for the door, which is a serious pain especially when the tanks are mostly full.

Do I have to drill holes in the concrete and bolt it in that way? I was thinking it would be a lot easier to use some construction adhesive to glue a couple of 2x4s to the floor and then bolt the winch into the wood -- would that be strong enough? I would think so, but thought I should check. The plane max gross is 3,000 lb and the biggest bump it has to go over is probably the hangar door track, maybe 3/4" high.

Thanks!
 
You might attach it to the rear wall of the hangar (if it will handle the load, and is attached to the slab sufficiently well). I would put a board across the attachment area to spread the load.
I did that once, using a light-duty hoist (that was intended to be clamped to a pipe of 1-1/2" or so). The hangar was wood frame, so I attached the pipe to the back wall studs just above the floor,
using pipe clamps and lag bolts. Worked fine. To attach to the plane I looped a nylon hoisting strap over each main landing gear leg (next to the fuselage), then joined them and the winch hook
together with a shackle. Pull the plane in backwards (since you obviously want to have it facing forward going out).

The only downside of using a hoist (instead of a winch) is that you have to pull out the cable manually while running it out. I used the hoist because I had one sitting around.

Dave
 
Fabricator by trade with 12' shear and press brake in the shop capable of 3/8" mild steel. So sheared, formed, and fabricobbled a mount for a winch from 1/8" aluminum diamond plate (cuz bling bling) to get it off the ground a bit so it pulls straight back and not down and anchored it in. Winch with wireless remote is recommended.

Construction adhesive will fail.
 
Bolted (post 5 in first link).
Not hard.
Peace of mind.
Easily removed and patched if needed later.
 
fabricobbled

I LOVE that word! New most favoritest word, bravo!!

And ya, the glue WILL fail. As sure as taxes…

Drilling concrete is easy. Well… usually. Every once in a while you run across special Hoover dam mix.
 
I did this once. Drilled a single hole in the back middle of the garage floor, and used a 3/8" double expansion anchor to bolt a metal bracket to the floor. Then I used a quick link to anchor the winch to the bracket. It worked great to pull a broken down car into the garage. Simple to take it out later if you want to, and you'd just have to fill a couple of 3/4" holes. Glue isn't going to hold well to concrete in a shear load, in my view.

example of fastener I used: https://www.confast.com/technical-specifications-double-expansion-anchors/

I like those anchors because they hold well in even crappy concrete, they're simple to remove, and they're strong. They're a little harder to find sometimes, though. Tapcons are common, but they're not all that strong, and if they break - and they do break - they are a pita to remove.

You probably already get it, but be careful with rope or steel cable under tension.
 
You might do a bit of research as to whether you really want to pull the plane by the rear tie down, which I assume is your plan. It looks like you have a Piper, and Piper themselves will tell you not to do it. That said, my former all PA-28 club has been doing it that way for 50+ years with no apparent ill effects.

If you're buying a winch, a tug isn't all that much more money and works in both directions. There's even portable electric ones you can take with you when you travel.

Just some food for thought.
 
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kyleb said:
Hell of a double entendre if you asked me.

And the stories I could share...
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yeah, I need to get my eyes checked. There’s an i there, clearly not an e.
 
Instead of pulling by the tail, I have two, 2" straps that I attach to each main gear leg by wrapping around them, down low - just above the brake caliper.
It's not going to hurt anything.
I think you could damage the tail on some aircraft, if going up a grade or the wheels get hung up by tracks etc although I'm pretty sure I posted that question years ago and no one had specifically heard of one; all theoretical.
 
Tools said:
fabricobbled

I LOVE that word! New most favoritest word, bravo!!

And ya, the glue WILL fail. As sure as taxes…

Drilling concrete is easy. Well… usually. Every once in a while you run across special Hoover dam mix.
Click to expand...
Or if you hit rebar
 
Bolt it to the floor with 1/2" concrete bolts, expanding concrete adhesive. Then, get a heavy duty spring - like a garage door spring. Use that spring on the cable to avoid sudden pulls by the winch, especially going over humps like the cement slab at the front of the hanger. Make sure you have a double shutoff - two switches, in case one fails. Don't want that plane getting pulled into the back wall of the hangar.
 
Jim K said:
If you're buying a winch, a tug isn't all that much more money and works in both directions. There's even portable electric ones you can take with you when you travel.

Just some food for thought.
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My buddy with a arrow just bought a used power tow tug for 500 bucks from someone at our airport that recently sold his plane.
It seems by the time you fool with a winch and installation you would be better off with portable tug which would give you much more flexibility like Jim said.

I used to install ground rods through 10" thick concrete for truck scales to try to protect from lightning. Often we would have re-drill because of steel rebar. So much fun...NOT!
 
I'd get a look at how that rear tiedown is mounted before committing to the winch.

I know, after seeing mine, it's clearly not made for forces fore and aft, but well made for up/down.

Oh, and if you choose to proceed, double check that brakes are off, and there's no obstacles. Else we'll be hearing about it here, and you'll be wetting your keyboard with tears.
 
a rotary hammer is 10 times better than a hammer drill for drilling concrete, even a Harbor Freight one.
I have left one, don't know much about the cordless one.
renting might be an option but for that price might make more sense to buy.

upload_2022-12-2_11-56-48.png
 
FWIW, I:
The surface outside my hangar is 50-yr-old asphalt with lots of cracks, weed clumps, and loose pebbles, and there's a slight uphill slope to fight against going back into the hangar. When the tanks are full or the ground is wet, it can be really tough for me to (safely) get the plane rolling fast enough to climb the lip of the hangar floor, even with the help of shallow ramps. And if I ever have leg or back issues...forget it. So this manual winch setup is my "get out of jail free" card when I need it, and I've used it on average a handful of times a year in the 10 years since I installed it. Really glad I did it.
 
I drilled through my hangar floor with a borrowed hammer drill or rotary hammer in about 60 seconds each for three holes for a tie-down ring. Easy-peasy.

I agree with Gary. By the time you buy the winch, incidentals, and do the work, you could probably pickup a used portable tug, quicker, easier, and for a cash wash. That's my future plan--pulling out of the hangar is a slight uphill.
 
I’m sorry…you guys are just warped! (Either that or I am…probably both.)
Ed Haywood said:
Step 1 - get the winch drunk.
Step 2 - compliment the winch.
etc
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Tools said:
Drilling concrete is easy.
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Albany Tom said:
I did this once.
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Jim K said:
You might do a bit of research as to whether you really want to pull…by the rear tie down,
Click to expand...

Let'sgoflying! said:
I have two, 2" straps that I attach to each main gear leg by wrapping around them, down low
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Rgbeard said:
I'd get a look at how that rear tiedown is mounted before committing to the winch.
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brcase said:
a rotary hammer is 10 times better
Click to expand...
 
brcase said:
a rotary hammer is 10 times better than a hammer drill for drilling concrete, even a Harbor Freight one.
I have left one, don't know much about the cordless one.
renting might be an option but for that price might make more sense to buy.

View attachment 112769
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Is there a difference between a rotary hammer and a hammer drill?
 
No. Maybe a size classification thing loosely speaking. But no.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m sorry…you guys are just warped! (Either that or I am…probably both.)
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So… in the Navy we had a 2 minute rule. Had to monitor a conversation for TWO FULL MINUTES before joining. Precisely for this reason! Dirty old man…. Ha!
 
Tools said:
No. Maybe a size classification thing loosely speaking. But no.
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Ehh....I think of a hammer drill is more a conventional drill with a hammer and drill function...but no hammer only function. A rotary hammer is designed to hammer and drill. And has a hammer only function. And will hit much harder. Have a Hilti and Milwaukee sds max on and DeWalt cordless sds with dust extraction for the smaller holes on the service truck. When coring holes everyone (except me) wants the Milwaukee cuz it's newer, hits slightly harder, and spins slightly faster. Jokes on them, there's no clutch so it's gonna rip your arms off when it catches. Ok, that might be on me upselling the Milwaukee and leaving out the lack of clutch. There's a reason the hilti was 3 times more.
 
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For drilling a couple of holes 1/4" to 3/4" for expansion anchors to mount your wen, er winch, I don't think it matters what kind of hammer drill. But it might matter what bit. Cheap carbide bits for Jacobs chucks can be really slow.
 
Oh didn’t think that airplanes were pulled in by the tail. But that seems difficult to line up right. I would get a nosewheel tug or ask someone for assistance / order full service fuel if that’s an option / etc.
 
mandm said:
Oh didn’t think that airplanes were pulled in by the tail. But that seems difficult to line up right. I would get a nosewheel tug or ask someone for assistance / order full service fuel if that’s an option / etc.
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You're right. It isn't something you want to do. The tail tie down is designed for (largely) vertical loads. Towing it is a horizontal load, and the steel cable of a winch doesn't give you any shock absorption to smooth the "bumps" as you pull the airplane over door rails and the like. Damage something back there and it'll get expensive.
 
Why would it have to be pulled by the tail? I would think running the cable to the front, and attaching to something behind a manual nose wheel tow bar. Rig the winch up remote control, so it's just a little bit of a power assist for manual tow bar.
 
kyleb said:
You're right. It isn't something you want to do. The tail tie down is designed for (largely) vertical loads. Towing it is a horizontal load, and the steel cable of a winch doesn't give you any shock absorption to smooth the "bumps" as you pull the airplane over door rails and the like. Damage something back there and it'll get expensive.
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While I agree it sounds like a bad idea to pull horizontally on the tail tie-down, I challenge you to present an example of someone doing damage to their plane via winching the tie-down. I've looked for years and haven't run across any. I've asked questions like this on public forums and no one's ever provided a specific example.

I'm not saying winching is risk-free or that damage can't happen, and I'm not recommending that it's a great option. I'm just saying I've heard lots of folks who have admitted to winching their planes but never heard of anyone who's had damage result from it.

In my case I decided I'd take that risk vs. having my feet fly out from under me and crashing face first into the spinner as I go to the ground when straining to push my plane on a slippery surface. Those same surface conditions make a small powered tug unsuitable. Sometimes, the least-worst option is still the best option.
 
Jim_R said:
While I agree it sounds like a bad idea to pull horizontally on the tail tie-down, I challenge you to present an example of someone doing damage to their plane via winching the tie-down. I've looked for years and haven't run across any. I've asked questions like this on public forums and no one's ever provided a specific example.
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A local RV-12 guy turned his tail tie down ring into a distorted banana shape by repeatedly towing the aircraft up a slight incline using that ring as a hard point. He had to replace the internal mounting structure to remove/replace the bent ring.
 
A friend of mine was in a partnership in a Cherokee 180 where the t-hangar was on a slope. There was NO WAY one or even two people would have been able to put it back in. They had a winch. And used it on a regular basis for at least 15 years that I know of. No problems.

There is not much shock loading. And if needed, you could put a shock link between the steel cable and the tie down ring. Pretty much a steady pull.

Pulling from the tail automatically centers the tail. If you tried to pull backwards from the nose gear, the airplane would want to turn. Try hooking a rope to the front of a shopping cart and pulling straight backwards. Please have someone video you doing this. It will be hilarious.
 
kyleb said:
A local RV-12 guy turned his tail tie down ring into a distorted banana shape by repeatedly towing the aircraft up a slight incline using that ring as a hard point. He had to replace the internal mounting structure to remove/replace the bent ring.
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Okay, after looking for years, I now have one data point of damage...to the tie down ring itself. Thanks for the info.
 
Jim_R said:
Okay, after looking for years, I now have one data point of damage...to the tie down ring itself. Thanks for the info.
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And the mounting hardpoint, which had to be replaced. It would be interesting to take a look at the aft bulkheads of multiple aircraft that had been towed that way frequently.

Edited to add: This is the one airplane owner I know who does this (tows by the tail tiedown). And his airplane has suffered damage.
 
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A tug might be preferred, depending on the structural integrity of the tail tie-down rings for towing. I have a winch installed at the back of my hangar. I drilled two 9/16 inch holes in the steel beam 6 inches above the floor at the back, and used those holes and 1/2 inch bolts to attach a sturdy wooden box to which I bolted the winch. I wired an extension to the control box so I can use it while outside the hangar backing the plane in. But the minimax tug is 1000x easier unless it's super icy.
 
Pinecone said:
.... Try hooking a rope to the front of a shopping cart and pulling straight backwards. Please have someone video you doing this. It will be hilarious.
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better yet, do it with one of those carts from Ikea ;)

I have a little Harbor Freight ATV winch up in my attic I should probably get rid of....haven't used it in years. (Message me if in this area and you need a 12 volt winch) I bought it years ago for a similar application...tugging a pop-up camper trailer into my backyard through a gate. In that case I looked into mounting it to a hardpoint but instead ended up mounting it to the trailer and used the trailer's battery to power it.... and just tied the cable to a hardpoint
and to pull it out of the yard I'd mount the winch to my truck's hitch at hook the cable to the trailer

but more on point... a tip. I soon tired of getting stuck by the little wires in the cable, and bought some dynema rope at the West Marine store. It was very small diameter...like maybe 1/8 inch or so...and extremely strong. Much better to handle than the wire rope and less likely to scratch or damage things. I honestly don't recall if it had much stretch or shock absorbing properties or not...
 
I asked my A&P about winching from the tail tie-down (PA-28-235) and he said it would be fine, that one's much stronger than the typical Cessna one, for what it's worth.

I already have a winch that will do, I just need to mount it, but for reference -- what tug can you get that's anywhere near a $100-ish Harbor Freight winch?
 
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