Most unwelcoming airport - Chicago O'Hare ORD

mandm

mandm

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I’ll say it, after traveling around the states, most airports were welcoming to touch and goes, transitioning Bravo airspace, being able to maintain safe altitudes, and not being vectored crazily out of the way.

EXCEPT for ORD Chicago O’Hare and Chicago approach…
 
Ummm...duh?

ORD is one of the busiest International Airports in the world. They are scheduled near 100% capacity most of each day. You are saying they weren't happy trying to accommodate a Cessna disrupting the normal flow of commercial jets?

If you really want the experience of flying into ORD in a light airplane, best to go about 2:00 AM when traffic is at its lowest.
 
midwestpa24 said:
If you really want the experience of flying into ORD in a light airplane, best to go about 2:00 AM when traffic is at its lowest.
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Or April of 2020 ;)

I understand that ord is busy, my gripe is that they don't give any accommodation at all. Atl moves just about as many airplanes, but they'll routinely bring you right over the airfield so you don't have to go all the way around. Chicago not only won't let you go through the Bravo, they make you fly clear to Rockford to go around. Thankfully my travels don't take me that way too often, but I feel bad for those who live up there and have to deal with it every flight.
 
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KDTW isn't much better when it comes to letting small planes in. They will sometimes let you fly over the field but you have to know exactly what to ask for, and be at the right place when you ask. During Covid, back in 2020 when everything was slow. I would call up Detroit approach and request a practice approach into DTW. This was when almost no-one was flying, and they would always tell me No.. Then one day, after asking for 5 or 6 days in a row they cleared me for 3 approaches! It was pretty cool landing on a 12,000' runway! After the 3rd approach they pretty much told me to get lost.. I think they were just board that day.
 
Jim K said:
Or April of 2020 ;)

I understand that ord is busy, my gripe is that they don't give any accommodation at all. Atl moves just about as many airplanes, but they'll routinely bring you right over the airfield so you don't have to go all the way around. Chicago not only won't let you go through the Bravo, they make you fly clear to Rockford to go around. Thankfully my travels don't take me that way too often, but I feel bad for those who live up there and have to deal with it every flight.
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I just fly the lakefront when going south. Better view, nobody to talk to, and can wave to the people in the high-rises. That's better than having Meigs right?
 
Yes I get that ORD is busy, but that isn’t an excuse, it’s an attitude. Stay OUT of the Bravo or if you are IFR go way out of the way.

Are we saying that other Bravo’s are not busy? I’ve been cleared into many other Bravos who were much more friendly. New York, Cleveland, Pittsburg, Miami, Charlotte, Denver…. All of them were more welcoming, except Cleveland had a little bit of an attitude “speed up!” then don’t vector me out of the way with a tailwind just to put me in a strong headwind… The third time into the New York Bravo, one controller told me to remain outside of the Bravo after being cleared by another, I said unable to maintain VMC and was quickly cleared into the Bravo.

Ohare would have a heart attack…and they have been snippy with practice approaches lately too in my experience, now I just call up Tower for practice approaches, much more friendly and no nonsense.
 
ORD isn't the problem, it's C90. Amusingly, I've gone up the lakeshore at 10,500 getting radar services and listening to to C90 holding departures from both MDW and ORD at 9000 until they were past me. Except one they missed. I'm watching an MD80 in front of me climbing and then suddenly descend.

27K: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid me having to go to KELSI.
C90: Let me check... No.
27K: OK, here's what I'm going to do. I'm climbing to 10,500, cancelling IFR and you can give me flight following.
C90: We can do that.

UA: I just got a TCAS RA.
C90: OH, yeah, there's a Navion up there.
27K: I had him in sight.

You would think, clearing me through at 5000 or something would that would keep me below the departures would be a better solution.
 
Flying low along the lakeshore yes has beautiful views, but when on a journey sometimes you want to get to altitude. Inbound ORD traffic along the lakeshore westbound is typically around 4000’-5000’. There’s no reason ORD cannot clear you through from the north via the lakeshore at 6500’+, there is plenty of separation. Or have one fly over the field or just a mile or so west of the field southbound at >4000’. Claiming all of the airspace up to 10,000’ is not sharing and expecting traffic to fly low to the ground, out of gliding distance etc is also not reasonable.
 
Houston does that as well. Though in fairness, my personal nemesis when it comes to 'tude when flying both at work and personal flying alike, is AUS approach. Something about the people that metro attracts I tell ya. /TC :D

This is part of a bigger tectonic shift I'm afraid. I think recreational piston, especially once we're majority experimental, might one day get gentrified out of Bravo airspace. Not sure which one will come first, user fees or experimental/VFR banned, but it's coming to a Bravo ring near you. Civilians always focus on big bad DOD presumably charting SUAs all over the place, but from where I sit it's gonna be the inability to affordably access class B airspace proximate/inclusive destinations that are gonna do a real job on the cohort complaining in the first place. Complaining about the guy ahead of you for hogging the view, but it's the guy behind you who picks your pockets clean.

Thank the cosmos we have AOPA though. They'll show those airline-sycophantic, turbine owning-....oh, wait a minute.
whomp-whomp.gif
 
Tampa is same way always has been. They just don’t want to have to do anything different.

I got turned away by a delta last weekend for crying out loud. Called up starting an approach and he says “can’t do that” I asked what can I do, and he says “nothing, I’ve got five in the airspace currently”. Bs. I counted 3 in the air and two on the taxiways. We could have fit an approach in with minor adjustment.
 
I haven't been turned down a bridge transition through the Tampa Bravo, but only if I haven't been told to pound sand already when asking for flight following. Seems some days, they can't handle more than a few piston planes on flight following at a time.
 
ATL Approach can be terse on occasion, but usually agreeable. I've flown IFR several times north to south (all of their runways are East and West) at 5,000 right over the airport. SO much better than VFR circling the Bravo.

ATL is almost if not busier than ORD. Maybe the difference is "Southern Hospitality"? :)
 
In my limited experience, DFW, ATL, DEN and STL all have been very nice and accommodating. I live in DFW, so I know the tricks and when not to ask for something, so maybe that helps.

AUS class Charlie is a mess. It needs to be a Bravo with the traffic they have there. San Antonio Charlie are as nice as can be. They vectored me into land there a couple of weeks ago to get me in before a thunder boomer was going to hit. Just don't try to taxi out of there during their morning push....found that out the hard way one day after clearing customs there in 100 degree heat and waiting for 30 minutes for my clearance.

Chicago can be a bit nasty, but not nearly as nasty as Madison approach during OSH. Those guys are the worst I've ever encountered. Milwaukee were as nice as pie and after they handed me off to Madison, the guy cancelled my FF and yelled at me to get off his frequency. Chicago did yell at me to hold my altitude on the lake front at 2,000 when I was getting bumped around by thermals and jet wash.

Nicest controllers I've ever dealt with were at Moline, worst, easily Madison. Some of the Class D's around here have a few jerks, but that's life I guess.
 
cowtowner said:
In my limited experience, DFW, ATL, DEN and STL all have been very nice and accommodating. I live in DFW, so I know the tricks and when not to ask for something, so maybe that helps.

AUS class Charlie is a mess. It needs to be a Bravo with the traffic they have there. San Antonio Charlie are as nice as can be. They vectored me into land there a couple of weeks ago to get me in before a thunder boomer was going to hit. Just don't try to taxi out of there during their morning push....found that out the hard way one day after clearing customs there in 100 degree heat and waiting for 30 minutes for my clearance.

Chicago can be a bit nasty, but not nearly as nasty as Madison approach during OSH. Those guys are the worst I've ever encountered. Milwaukee were as nice as pie and after they handed me off to Madison, the guy cancelled my FF and yelled at me to get off his frequency. Chicago did yell at me to hold my altitude on the lake front at 2,000 when I was getting bumped around by thermals and jet wash.

Nicest controllers I've ever dealt with were at Moline, worst, easily Madison. Some of the Class D's around here have a few jerks, but that's life I guess.
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I wonder if STL will ever be downgraded to a Class C. Ever since TWA was bought by AAL, and AAL de-hubbed STL, it is rarely that busy except during a Southwest Airlines push. My one trip into STL, I was literally the only aircraft moving on the airport during my arrival, and when I departed I had a single solitary SW 737 following me to the runway. Even during my stay that day, the only traffic I saw much of was a new F-15 doing touch and goes and the occasional SW 737.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I wonder if STL will ever be downgraded to a Class C. Ever since TWA was bought by AAL, and AAL de-hubbed STL, it is rarely that busy except during a Southwest Airlines push. My one trip into STL, I was literally the only aircraft moving on the airport during my arrival, and when I departed I had a single solitary SW 737 following me to the runway. Even during my stay that day, the only traffic I saw much of was a new F-15 doing touch and goes and the occasional SW 737.
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I remember when they spent all that money to expand the runways a few decades ago. TWA - too large to fail - was going to be huge. Seemed like it took only a day for it to become deserted.

In a way, same with Cincinnati when Delta left when they moved their hub to DTW after buying NWest.
 
No controllers here?
I think if we knew their workload and day to day difficulties, we’d understand why.
 
As someone based under the Chicago B shelf, I just wish they designed our airspace to be more like PHX. When I look at PHX's it makes more logical sense. If you're on the app/dep paths of the E/W flow runways (just like ORD) -- you've got restrictive altitudes, but other altitudes are more generous (plus they will clear you into the B airspace). Plus they have that transition above PHX so you can transit directly above the airport without flying around the whole thing. STL does the same sending you to CSX directly over Lambert (though that's a sleepy airport). Seems like ORD could implement the same thing? Then again I'm not a controller so probably something obvious that I'm missing.

Now as for touch and goes at ORD? They have a neatly choreographed parade of jets extending how many miles out? Running the risk of disrupting that because some assclown accidentally lines up with 28C instead of 28L on their touch and go seems like a bad idea! :eek: I'd love to land there someday, but like someone recommended above -- I'll try it at 230am :)
 
mandm said:
Flying low along the lakeshore yes has beautiful views, but when on a journey sometimes you want to get to altitude. Inbound ORD traffic along the lakeshore westbound is typically around 4000’-5000’. There’s no reason ORD cannot clear you through from the north via the lakeshore at 6500’+, there is plenty of separation. Or have one fly over the field or just a mile or so west of the field southbound at >4000’. Claiming all of the airspace up to 10,000’ is not sharing and expecting traffic to fly low to the ground, out of gliding distance etc is also not reasonable.
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Like I said, 10000 over the lakeshore puts you right in the way of eastbound MDW and ORD departures. The only one they forgot to hold at 9000 when I was at 10,500 got a TCAS RA as he was about to climb through my alitude.
 
Tom Wells said:
Now as for touch and goes at ORD? They have a neatly choreographed parade of jets extending how many miles out?
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Three simultaneous Finals (9L, 10C, 10R or 27R, 27C, 28C) plus two simultaneous departure runways (9C & 10L or 28R & 22L). The Finals stretch out a bit over 30nm from the airport.

Then you also have the very busy MDW airport with all of SWA's traffic right under the ORD traffic.

And a bunch of G.A. airports, too.
 
Larry in TN said:
Three simultaneous Finals (9L, 10C, 10R or 27R, 27C, 28C) plus two simultaneous departure runways (9C & 10L or 28R & 22L). The Finals stretch out a bit over 30nm from the airport.

Then you also have the very busy MDW airport with all of SWA's traffic right under the ORD traffic.

And a bunch of G.A. airports, too.
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My dad rents hangar space to a southwest Captain that flies out of MDW. We're almost 90 minutes away. I asked why he doesn't buy and fly to work since midway is pretty accommodating to GA.
 
I had A very accommodating controller in Chicago on returning from Osh .asked me where I wanted to go and gave me a routing through the class Bravo. I have done Atlanta several times and was always routed around the class Bravo. Boston and New York can be difficult at times. Vfr in a small airplane seems to get great service from ATC.
 
cowtowner said:
Chicago can be a bit nasty, but not nearly as nasty as Madison approach during OSH. Those guys are the worst I've ever encountered.
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I fly out of Madison, and the controllers there are incredibly easy to work with. There’s a lot of flight training that goes on between C29 and KMSN and they always try their best to accommodate.

I don’t think you realize just how busy MSN C gets during Oshkosh. Last year the line up extended west and south to just about the edge of the airspace, with planes converging thru the C to get in thereall the time.

Coupled with sheer numbers, I listened to Approach and the number of pilots who didn’t know how to talk to Approach, I don’t blame MSN controllers at all for sounding short and turning pilots that don’t know what they’re doing away from controlled airspace.

When it’s not nuts, I’ve heard them be very patient with students or clearly inexperienced with Approach pilots. OSH is not a time to flail around on frequency.
 
WDD said:
I remember when they spent all that money to expand the runways a few decades ago. TWA - too large to fail - was going to be huge. Seemed like it took only a day for it to become deserted.

In a way, same with Cincinnati when Delta left when they moved their hub to DTW after buying NWest.
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Memphis too. It’s only busy when FedEx is doing a push at night.
 
Jim Jarrett said:
I fly out of Madison, and the controllers there are incredibly easy to work with. There’s a lot of flight training that goes on between C29 and KMSN and they always try their best to accommodate.

I don’t think you realize just how busy MSN C gets during Oshkosh. Last year the line up extended west and south to just about the edge of the airspace, with planes converging thru the C to get in thereall the time.

Coupled with sheer numbers, I listened to Approach and the number of pilots who didn’t know how to talk to Approach, I don’t blame MSN controllers at all for sounding short and turning pilots that don’t know what they’re doing away from controlled airspace.

When it’s not nuts, I’ve heard them be very patient with students or clearly inexperienced with Approach pilots. OSH is not a time to flail around on frequency.
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I said my tail number and altitude and that's it when checking in. There wasn't any flailing around as you said. Didn't even include with you or level. He yelled at me to get off his frequency and to squawk VFR.

and this was the Thursday before it even started. So I stick with my assessment of the controllers there
 
mandm said:
I’ll say it, after traveling around the states, most airports were welcoming to touch and goes, transitioning Bravo airspace, being able to maintain safe altitudes, and not being vectored crazily out of the way.

EXCEPT for ORD Chicago O’Hare and Chicago approach…
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I don't like going to ORD driving an airliner, I don't know why someone would want to subject themselves to pain going there in a 172.
 
Jim K said:
Or April of 2020 ;)

I understand that ord is busy, my gripe is that they don't give any accommodation at all. Atl moves just about as many airplanes, but they'll routinely bring you right over the airfield so you don't have to go all the way around. Chicago not only won't let you go through the Bravo, they make you fly clear to Rockford to go around. Thankfully my travels don't take me that way too often, but I feel bad for those who live up there and have to deal with it every flight.
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They can’t help it. They are from Chicago.
 
WDD said:
ATL Approach can be terse on occasion, but usually agreeable. I've flown IFR several times north to south (all of their runways are East and West) at 5,000 right over the airport. SO much better than VFR circling the Bravo.

ATL is almost if not busier than ORD. Maybe the difference is "Southern Hospitality"? :)
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The difference is the configuration of the airspace and runways. ATL is 100% E/W with downwind departures flying a predictable path with altitude restrictions and inbounds coming predictably from the four corner posts. Makes N/S flyovers much easier. ORD doesn't seem to be quite as well configured to accommodate N/S flyovers. See a screen shot I just took of the two airports. 977B6DA3-FB0F-4B0E-BDA7-59841B9F756B.pngCB6E2FF9-2F3A-4477-AAC4-C7E43A1A2557.jpeg
 
Brad Z said:
The difference is the configuration of the airspace and runways. ATL is 100% E/W with downwind departures flying a predictable path with altitude restrictions and inbounds coming predictably from the four corner posts. Makes N/S flyovers much easier. ORD doesn't seem to be quite as well configured to accommodate N/S flyovers. See a screen shot I just took of the two airports. View attachment 112736View attachment 112737
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I've always suspected MDW is the fly in the ointment up there. Seems like NY and LA make it work with multiple airports though. @NealRomeoGolf got routed directly over JFK, and there is a vfr corridor over LAX.
 
Jim K said:
I've always suspected MDW is the fly in the ointment up there. Seems like NY and LA make it work with multiple airports though. @NealRomeoGolf got routed directly over JFK, and there is a vfr corridor over LAX.
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Every time I fly up to CT I fly right over JFK.

I suspect the difference is that with JFK, LGA, EWR, HPN, and TEB, you're going to still have conflict even if you send them around the perimeter of the bravo airspace. Knowing that through traffic is going to be conflicting either way, it's just easier for N90 to formulate a strategy for getting them through the area rather than around it. Expanding bravo isn't an option.
 
I don’t think Chicago or C90 are that bad. I think the biggest reason there aren’t big corridors through the bravo is that they use the downwind legs at 6-12k.

Now what really grinds my gears is coming into the area VFR below the Bravo and being nose to nose with an airliner. My most famous example is departing KDPA northbound and playing chicken with a JAL 777-300.

Tower: N1234, you still up?
Me: yup
Tower: N1234, you see that 777 heavy at your 12 o’clock?
Me: yup…
 
kaiser said:
I don’t think Chicago or C90 are that bad. I think the biggest reason there aren’t big corridors through the bravo is that they use the downwind legs at 6-12k.

Now what really grinds my gears is coming into the area VFR below the Bravo and being nose to nose with an airliner. My most famous example is departing KDPA northbound and playing chicken with a JAL 777-300.

Tower: N1234, you still up?
Me: yup
Tower: N1234, you see that 777 heavy at your 12 o’clock?
Me: yup…
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Same with their use of KELSI as the waypoint to get around the Class B. Inside of KELSI you will find SW 737s galore going into Midway below 10,000 feet. I once made the mistake of trying to go around the SW side VFR by going to JOT at 8,000. That was eye opening!
 
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