Most unwelcoming airport - Chicago O'Hare ORD

[mandm]

I don’t think Chicago or C90 are that bad. I think the biggest reason there aren’t big corridors through the bravo is that they use the downwind legs at 6-12k.

Now what really grinds my gears is coming into the area VFR below the Bravo and being nose to nose with an airliner. My most famous example is departing KDPA northbound and playing chicken with a JAL 777-300.

Tower: N1234, you still up?
Me: yup
Tower: N1234, you see that 777 heavy at your 12 o’clock?
Me: yup…

I still think Chicago approach could figure it out, they just want the entire airspace to themselves, I’ve never been cleared through the ORD Bravo except once when I was going to land there, which turned into an event (approach vs tower arguing) and later it was stay clear of the Bravo after I’m already in (this was at midnight). Bravo starts at 3000’ at the lakeshore. If I want to be 2800’ that’s my right, I rather get rolled over at 2800’ vs 1800’. There’s no time to fix any emergencies at 1800’. I was VFR FF and ORD was attempting to vector me in inconvenient ways, I’m tired long day just out of bad weather earlier and the last leg they are playing games. Most ORD traffic is 737s, I fly by those all the time without incident. I’d probably be more concerned with 747 cargo. So I give ORD a fail…

 

[mandm]

My dad rents hangar space to a southwest Captain that flies out of MDW. We're almost 90 minutes away. I asked why he doesn't buy and fly to work since midway is pretty accommodating to GA.

Are you saying GA pilots have private hangars at MDW and base there? Never considered it as an option.

 

[Larry in TN]

I don't like going to ORD driving an airliner, I don't know why someone would want to subject themselves to pain going there in a 172.

ORD is easy if you're based there and know how it all works. Very predictable. Come in once every couple of months and it would be a pain in the APU exhaust.

Landed LGA Rwy22 earlier today, winds 29020G29KT which put the Vtgt at 161. The Rwy31 departure cleared the intersection when I was about 200' AFL. That was a pain for me (and too much work!). It's probably been close to a year since my last flight into LGA. I'm sure it's easy for all those Endeavor guys who are in an out all the time.

 

[midwestpa24]

Are you saying GA pilots have private hangars at MDW and base there? Never considered it as an option.

I would imagine any hangar space at MDW demands a premium. That airport is so landlocked, every square foot is valuable.

 

[Brad Z]

Are you saying GA pilots have private hangars at MDW and base there? Never considered it as an option.

Signature and Atlantic have a large shared corporate hangar. I'm sure for the right place you could get a spot. I can only imagine how much that might be. No individual hangars; one look at the airfield on Google earth explains why.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I thought midwesterners were sweet accommodating people..

That’s funny

 

[KaiGywer]

No controllers here?
I think if we knew their workload and day to day difficulties, we’d understand why.

@Radar Contact you up?

 

[Jim K]

Signature and Atlantic have a large shared corporate hangar. I'm sure for the right place you could get a spot. I can only imagine how much that might be. No individual hangars; one look at the airfield on Google earth explains why.

There is a flight school there; looks like they are just tied down on Atlantic's ramp though. When I went there for my ifr long xc, there were a couple large hangars to the south that looked abandoned.

 

[Groundpounder]

ORD is easy if you're based there and know how it all works. Very predictable. Come in once every couple of months and it would be a pain in the APU exhaust.

Landed LGA Rwy22 earlier today, winds 29020G29KT which put the Vtgt at 161. The Rwy31 departure cleared the intersection when I was about 200' AFL. That was a pain for me (and too much work!). It's probably been close to a year since my last flight into LGA. I'm sure it's easy for all those Endeavor guys who are in an out all the time.

As my mentor said, ORD is the worlds largest uncontrolled airport. I'm sorta getting the taxi method worked out but it sure would be nice if the controllers would slow down a little.....

On the other hand, LGA is great. Wouldn't want to go there on the regular in the guppy though.

 

[Groundpounder]

I still think Chicago approach could figure it out, they just want the entire airspace to themselves, I’ve never been cleared through the ORD Bravo except once when I was going to land there, which turned into an event (approach vs tower arguing) and later it was stay clear of the Bravo after I’m already in (this was at midnight). Bravo starts at 3000’ at the lakeshore. If I want to be 2800’ that’s my right, I rather get rolled over at 2800’ vs 1800’. There’s no time to fix any emergencies at 1800’. I was VFR FF and ORD was attempting to vector me in inconvenient ways, I’m tired long day just out of bad weather earlier and the last leg they are playing games. Most ORD traffic is 737s, I fly by those all the time without incident. I’d probably be more concerned with 747 cargo. So I give ORD a fail…

You should call up Chicago Approach and ask them for a tour of their facility. That would give you a look at how the operation works from their side of the scope, and they can probably answer your questions. @Radar Contact would probably be able to facilitate that, since they are a controller there.

 

[francisco collazos]

Yup

Yeah he does that a lot. One time there was a poor fellow denied entry into the airspace during his solo XC. Poor guy had to fly back and redo his solo I imagine.

 

[Larry in TN]

As my mentor said, ORD is the worlds largest uncontrolled airport. I'm sorta getting the taxi method worked out but it sure would be nice if the controllers would slow down a little.....

Once you realize that all they want you to read back is the departure runway, hold short, and runway crossing instructions it gets a lot easier. Oh, and reading back the departure runway only applies if the controller actually pauses to give you time to read it back! LOL

On the other hand, LGA is great. Wouldn't want to go there on the regular in the guppy though.

It's just a lot of work when you aren't familiar with it. New terminal is nice, though lots of walking. Can't land if the braking action is less than Good in the 737-800, and larger.

 

[farmrjohn]

As my mentor said, ORD is the worlds largest uncontrolled airport. I'm sorta getting the taxi method worked out but it sure would be nice if the controllers would slow down a little.....

I liked the old taxiway name scheme. As long as the instructions included "the stub" it was fairly easy to find your routing

 

[flyingron]

I liked the old taxiway name scheme. As long as the instructions included "the stub" it was fairly easy to find your routing

I never understood the FAA's slavish adherence to their taxiway scheme. INNER and OUTER at many airports made a lot more sense than A and B or whatever they ended up being. IAD had a sensible taxiway layouts where the ones at the east runway were E1 and E2 (and all the stubs between E3, E4, ...), the west runway was W1,2,3... The ones going east/west by the tower T1, T2, T3, ... as you get progressively away from the tower.

Now we have J and K? Y and Z, and likely will get a collision if they added an 8th east west taxiway (Now A through F).

 

[Steamflyer]

A lot of it depends on your radio technique. Many GA pilots struggle a bit in that department. Generally have not had issues flying through a Bravo VFR when it's needed. Not every time of course.

Once or twice have done the "ok, we'll climb to 10,500 and proceed on course" offer and then been cleared right through at a lower altitude. Doesn't always work either.

I find Houston controllers bend over backwards to accommodate VFR ops in their Bravo. Very friendly. As are most ATC. NY airspace is one strike and you're out though - miss a call or sound like you won't do what is asked of you immediately and the "unable" will be heard. Otherwise they are great too.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

LA airspace is insanely complex...but it works, and controllers want to get you where you're going efficiently. For example, it isn't unusual at slower times of day (and by that, I mean mid to late mornings on Mondays) to overfly the approaches into LAX on a Class B clearance that you never requested. The only difficulty we've had lately is getting practice instrument approaches during busy times, but I know it's because they are short-staffed, not because they don't want to.

 

[flyingron]

A lot of it depends on your radio technique. Many GA pilots struggle a bit in that department. Generally have not had issues flying through a Bravo VFR when it's needed. Not every time of course.

Having been based at IAD, I'm pretty good on the radio (and Margy learned to fly there). In fact, we tend to get cleared into the class B when others were turned away because we make succinct radio calls on initial call up.

 

[kayoh190]

It's just a lot of work when you aren't familiar with it. New terminal is nice, though lots of walking. Can't land if the braking action is less than Good in the 737-800, and larger.

LGA can be a PITA, but I've also probably operated out of there more than any other airport in the country during my 121 flying, so I have a bit of an affinity for it. Earlier in the year I had CLT send us around at around 400' for an airplane slow to clear, and I remember thinking, "That's bull**** - LGA would have launched an aircraft off the crossing runway with all that space!"

We can get our -800s in with Medium braking action at weights around 140K or less (which is admittedly rare) and the MAX-8 can do it all the way to the max landing weight, but you've gotta touch down in the first 1200 feet (essentially by the PAPIs for 22 and 31, and just prior for 4). That said we almost never take any wind additives like you do, and our data for medium braking action is predicated on VRef+5.

 

[unsafervguy]

ORD is easy if you're based there and know how it all works. Very predictable. Come in once every couple of months and it would be a pain in the APU exhaust.

Landed LGA Rwy22 earlier today, winds 29020G29KT which put the Vtgt at 161. The Rwy31 departure cleared the intersection when I was about 200' AFL. That was a pain for me (and too much work!). It's probably been close to a year since my last flight into LGA. I'm sure it's easy for all those Endeavor guys who are in an out all the time.

so you got a calm wind day then?

 

[unsafervguy]

LGA can be a PITA, but I've also probably operated out of there more than any other airport in the country during my 121 flying, so I have a bit of an affinity for it. Earlier in the year I had CLT send us around at around 400' for an airplane slow to clear, and I remember thinking, "That's bull**** - LGA would have launched an aircraft off the crossing runway with all that space!"

We can get our -800s in with Medium braking at weights around 140K or less (which is admittedly rare) and the MAX-8 can do it all the way to the max landing weight, but you've gotta touch down in the first 1200 feet (essentially by the PAPIs for 22 and 31, and just prior for 4). That said we almost never take any wind additives like you do, and our data for medium braking is predicated on VRef+5.

i don't like going in there with the 321, i can't imagine how much worse it is in the boeingasorus.

 

[Sundancer]

Different "personalities" - I did a good few approaches into BWI when working on my rating; Potomac and BWI were accommodating - we were usually there latter evening/off-peak hours. But Martin State right next door were tremendous azz hoes. Plus they were often clearly the "B" team...

 

[Tools]

A) Did my initial Capt checkout in a MD-88 at O’Hare… great fun. Got taxi instructions so messed up I literally stopped, set the parking brake, looked at the check capt and the fed and said “did either of you understand a word of that?” Got a unanimous NO.

2) So there I was… called for taxi as a young copilot, got a paragraph of instructions culminating in some sort of “penalty box”. I lost my mud and screwed myself into the overhead while the capt talked me off the ledge and pointed to a little area on the 10-9 Airport diagram labeled “penalty box”.

Oooooooh. Ok.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I understand that ord is busy, my gripe is that they don't give any accommodation at all. Atl moves just about as many airplanes, but they'll routinely bring you right over the airfield so you don't have to go all the way around. Chicago not only won't let you go through the Bravo, they make you fly clear to Rockford to go around. Thankfully my travels don't take me that way too often, but I feel bad for those who live up there and have to deal with it every flight.

ORD is new to having all east-west runways, and they didn't redesign all of the arrivals and departures, so it's not as easy to send someone right over the top as it may be at ATL.

And you don't have to go clear to Rockford. They'll give you KELSI at any altitude, but if you go between 4000 and 8000 you can take T265 which is closer in.

Better yet, just go VFR down the lakeshore, it's a cool view and faster anyway. If you need IFR on one side or the other, file from Kenosha or Gary and pick it up in the air.

Chicago can be a bit nasty, but not nearly as nasty as Madison approach during OSH. Those guys are the worst I've ever encountered. Milwaukee were as nice as pie and after they handed me off to Madison, the guy cancelled my FF and yelled at me to get off his frequency.

Nicest controllers I've ever dealt with were at Moline, worst, easily Madison.

Ah, you got Mr. Happy. He's a newbie controller who's a jerk to everyone. The rest of the controllers at Madison are really good, and really nice, and happy to work with OSH-bound planes. Mr. Happy is a pain in the ass all year long.

As someone based under the Chicago B shelf, I just wish they designed our airspace to be more like PHX. When I look at PHX's it makes more logical sense. If you're on the app/dep paths of the E/W flow runways (just like ORD) -- you've got restrictive altitudes, but other altitudes are more generous (plus they will clear you into the B airspace). Plus they have that transition above PHX so you can transit directly above the airport without flying around the whole thing. STL does the same sending you to CSX directly over Lambert (though that's a sleepy airport). Seems like ORD could implement the same thing?

They could, and eventually probably will. But, like I mentioned before, the all-east-west configuration at O'Hare is relatively new, and the arrival and departure corridors take a long time to change. The paths that are taken for the turbine traffic that goes in and out of O'Hare are intertwined with those going in and out of Detroit, Milwaukee, South Bend, Midway, and a bunch of others. Nearly the entirety of Chicago Center's airspace has routing that is affected by O'Hare traffic; I've even been re-routed in Cleveland Center due to O'Hare arrivals. So, making it work like PHX or ATL isn't as simple as just copy and paste, it's going to take a lot of unraveling of existing procedures and creation of new ones into numerous facilities.

 

[Jim K]

And you don't have to go clear to Rockford. They'll give you KELSI at any altitude, but if you go between 4000 and 8000 you can take T265 which is closer in.

Better yet, just go VFR down the lakeshore, it's a cool view and faster anyway. If you need IFR on one side or the other, file from Kenosha or Gary and pick it up in the air.

I'm usually IFR when I'm that far from home. I've flown the lakeshore route probably half a dozen times, but always recreationally, not as a means to get where I'm going. Honestly, I find it less stressful to stay at altitude and go around. I've never gotten KELSI. I'm 50/50 RFD & SHOOF. I suppose that all has to do with picking the right altitude. My sample size isn't all that big either.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm usually IFR when I'm that far from home. I've flown the lakeshore route probably half a dozen times, but always recreationally, not as a means to get where I'm going. Honestly, I find it less stressful to stay at altitude and go around. I've never gotten KELSI. I'm 50/50 RFD & SHOOF. I suppose that all has to do with picking the right altitude. My sample size isn't all that big either.

KELSI and SHOOF are very close to each other. And the lower you are, the closer to ORD you can get. Like I said, max altitude for T265 is 8,000. Also, I don't think I've ever been offered T265 - You either file it, or you'll be given something worse (like SHOOF).

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

I did my training here back in the 90s. They told me not to bother with C90 for flight following.

After taking an unsuccessful run at the IR NW of the city, I have the past 2-years successfully gotten flight following around ORD. Sometimes shuffled off to other frequencies but it's been a long time since I've been straight up ignored. Maybe my radio work is better since the IR training?

I've never been cleared into the B. Always "maintain VFR and remain clear of class Bravo airspace."

 

[kaiser]

I did my training here back in the 90s. They told me not to bother with C90 for flight following.

After taking an unsuccessful run at the IR NW of the city, I have the past 2-years successfully gotten flight following around ORD. Sometimes shuffled off to other frequencies but it's been a long time since I've been straight up ignored. Maybe my radio work is better since the IR training?

I've never been cleared into the B. Always "maintain VFR and remain clear of class Bravo airspace."

Make it a goal in 2023 to get into that bravo! (Legally ofc)

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

Lots of trips between SW Michigan and Wisconsin, IFR around Chicago. Always Knox, Peotone, KELSI, (or the opposite) but they often gave me vectors to cut the corners. When I went VFR I always did the lakeshore, usually at 2,250 since most of the others were at 2,000 or 2,500. One time I passed right underneath a P-51 heading north to Oshkosh. I doubt he saw me because of that long nose.

 

[mandm]

Make it a goal in 2023 to get into that bravo! (Legally ofc)

I asked for a touch & go once and was cleared into the Bravo then tower changed their mind….Also I’ve flown IFR into the Bravo before in the most least direct way possible.

 

[kaiser]

I asked for a touch & go once and was cleared into the Bravo then tower changed their mind….Also I’ve flown IFR into the Bravo before in the most least direct way possible.

I’ve been in the bravo a few times, IFR and VFR. (But still haven’t landed ORD)

 

[cowtowner]

I flew out of 3CK the other day and was cleared into the Bravo on my climb out.

 

[iamtheari]

Make it a goal in 2023 to get into that bravo! (Legally ofc)

Approach, Bugsmasher 23B, VFR with information Delta, whiskey, and a giant box of cookies for everyone at the tracon, landing O’Hare.

 

[Brad Z]

Approach, Bugsmasher 23B, VFR with information Delta, whiskey, and a giant box of cookies for everyone at the tracon, landing O’Hare.

Lol. That might work if it weren't for the fact that the actual Tracon is 30 miles away in Elgin IL.

 

[kaiser]

Lol. That might work if it weren't for the fact that the actual Tracon is 30 miles away in Elgin IL.

How about an IOU? It’s as good as money.

 

[Racerx]

How about an IOU? It’s as good as money.

 

[AirHare]

I've found Tampa to be quite friendly and open. Much more friendly than my local Class D. Orlando Bravo is a different story. I think they wish anything other than 121's would go away.

 

[JoeInCT]

I have to say, New York is fantastic! Best class B in the US. If you are in Connecticut or eastern Long Island, the NY class B (with 3 NY airports) sits between you and points south (like New Jersey). It is a long way around. Fortunately, they will let you fly direct to JFK at 5,000+/- and then to points south. One time I was coming back from Caldwell NJ and flying east to Connecticut. My plan was to fly under the class B. They actually ASKED ME if I wanted a class Bravo clearance (up higher) so I didn't have to talk to White Planes (HPN) as I tracked east. I love those controllers in NY. So awesome! Especially if you are verbally on your game.

 

[MajorTurbulence]

I think part of the problem is that much of the light GA traffic does not want to traverse Lake Michigan, and as a result there is a lot of traffic North/South compression close to Chicago.

On my recent flight to Chicago from the east with landing at UGN, since I declined over the Lake IFR, I had to descend and cancel and go VFR to the east of Gary and then up the Lake Shore routing under 3K to stay closer to the shore.

On the way back home, I filed IFR using ZYDEK MONKZ EZRAH up to 11k, but on departure they changed it to a southerly vector through the class B up to 11k along the Lakeshore to Peotone before turning me direct to the east.

 

[jbehler]

I heard sometime back that there is a Letter of Agreement with Chicago that limits their flexibility. To be clear I'm not sure what this means and I know it's not absolute as I have been cleared through the Bravo before, but only late at night. I usually hope for VMC and either take the shoreline or fly above between 10-12K. If I'm flying IFR they won't even let you over at anything less than 16k'

 

[Ghery]

SEA is fantastic. I've never had a bad experience with them, no matter where I was coming from or headed. And the controllers in the tower at the Class D I am based at (KOLM) are great, as well. Customer orientation is critical to getting hired there (contract tower).

The only B space airport I've taken off from and landed was HNL, nearly 20 years ago. No problem there, either, but the 172 I was flying was based there.