Most Reliable/Longlived/Proven LSA Airplane?

Then there are the aluminum classics, C-120, Luscombe, Ercoupe.

Great light airplanes, but the Cessna, Luscombe 8E, and the Ercoupe 145-D are each over the arbitrary 1320 pound GW limit for LSA.

So are some of the later Champs such as the 7EC.
 
I definitely want to stay away from anything other than factory-built. I've gotten to look at a good bit of various kitbuilds (not talking about kits that were built by the factory) that have scared me away from ever buying someone else's project.
Your thinking here is not unreasonable. But there is one thing you might want to keep in mind. ELSA kits work a bit differently than other experimental amateur built kits in terms of how much leeway the builder has to modify the design or substitute parts during the build process. With experimentals, the builder has almost unlimited leeway to modify the design or use different parts. With ELSA kits, the builder has almost no leeway at all. LSA kits have to built 100% to factory plans using 100% factory supplied parts or they cannot be certified as ELSA.
 
Great light airplanes, but the Cessna, Luscombe 8E, and the Ercoupe 145-D are each over the arbitrary 1320 pound GW limit for LSA.

So are some of the later Champs such as the 7EC.
My mistake, I thought the 120 was LSA while the 140 was not, but turns out both are too heavy. Some (not all) models of Luscombe and Ercoupe are, though.
 
So far the 3 that interest me the most (in no particular order) are the Supercruiser, one of the Legend Cub models, and the Tecnam P92 Super Echo. One is a taildragger high wing, one is a tricycle low-wing, and one is a tricycle high wing. In terms of gear and wing configuration, the P92 lines up with what I have the most experience with, though I'm sure mastering low wing flying isn't a big deal at all. Tailwheel is definitely going to be quite different but it's a rating I've wanted to earn for a long time anyway.

Part of why the Legend Cub interests me is definitely nostalgia. As a kid we used to hunt on this farm where the farmer had so much land that he got his pilots license, made a little grass airstrip, and got a J-3 Cub so he could survey his land from the skies. I used to ride a fourwheeler down to the hangar and just admire the plane and fantasize about becoming a pilot. Years later, during high school once I was checked out to do so, I would fly my uncle's 172 up to the camp after school on Friday afternoons and land at the same airstrip and put the plane right next to that old J-3 Cub. All of that is to say, the Legend Cub is being considered for reasons other than pure performance.
If you like the P92, look in to the 2008. Slightly roomier, and a bit more capable.
 
If you are targeting LSA... do NOT rule out the CTSW or CTLS... or as my friend Kent says... the new F2 from Flight Design. I owned a CTLSi for 3 years... loved every minute of it. The posse I would fly with sometimes was a hodgepodge of older GA's... Bonanza, Arrow, 172, 182 and the CTLSi kept right up at 1/3 of the operating cost and at equal or better comfort. Plus, there is a large installed base in North America with a network of mechanics and a USA distribution center with factory trained people who are experts at everything CT... the other sellers, other than Tecnam, do not have that critical mechanical backup. Go for a ride in one, the visibility and handling are amazing.
 
If you are targeting LSA... do NOT rule out the CTSW or CTLS... or as my friend Kent says... the new F2 from Flight Design. I owned a CTLSi for 3 years... loved every minute of it. The posse I would fly with sometimes was a hodgepodge of older GA's... Bonanza, Arrow, 172, 182 and the CTLSi kept right up at 1/3 of the operating cost and at equal or better comfort. Plus, there is a large installed base in North America with a network of mechanics and a USA distribution center with factory trained people who are experts at everything CT... the other sellers, other than Tecnam, do not have that critical mechanical backup. Go for a ride in one, the visibility and handling are amazing.
What (roughly) is the yearly expense in owning/operating it?

In fact, anyone who owns and operates a LSA, what is it and how much does it cost to own/operate on a yearly basis? I k ow there are a lot of variables, but what does it come to with your specific set of circumstances and use?
 
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What (roughly) is the yearly expense in owning/operating it?

In fact, anyone who owns and operates a LSA, what is it and how much does it cost to own/operate on a yearly basis? I k ow there are a lot of variables, but what does it come to with your specific set of circumstances and use?
What it is: Factory built AMD CH601XLi-B SLSA (basically a factory built Zenith CH601XL Zodiac with the "B Mod" structural upgrades and the operating limitations authorizing flight in IMC) converted to experimental.

Fixed costs:
Liability and hull insurance - $1,521 (I'm 79 so I think my age has affected my premium the last couple of years). Never any accidents, incidents, pilot deviations or claims in a little over 3,000 hours.

T-hangar, Charles M. Schulz - Sonoma County Airport - $356 per month, $4,380 annually

Sonoma County personal property tax - $450

Annual condition inspections (typical, including routine maintenance items and airworthiness repairs. Labor is not included since I perform maintenance and condition inspections myself) - $250 - $500. Every other year there's the $200 static system certification.

Variable costs: This is basically the cost of fuel (~6 gph) and oil and oil filter changes every 50 hours.

I don't set aside money for engine overhauls; if major work is required I just bite the bullet and pay the piper.

Hope this helps.
 
My mistake, I thought the 120 was LSA while the 140 was not, but turns out both are too heavy. Some (not all) models of Luscombe and Ercoupe are, though.
Only dif between the 120 and 140 as built, was flaps and an electrical system ('tho that was an option on 120s). 140As had "big" C-90s instead of an 85.

"Huge" 1650 GW 150s have O-200s. IMHO the Cessnas and 1400 lb GW Luscombes, Ercoupes, and Champs should be LSA. But i didn't get consulted.
 
IMHO the Cessnas and 1400 lb GW Luscombes, Ercoupes, and Champs should be LSA. But i didn't get consulted.

As a sport pilot it would have been wonderful if a Cessna 140 or even the early 150's (with 1500 lbs. gross) were allowed under the LSA rule. I have flown two and four seat Cessnas (with an instructor/pilot on board) and they were as easy to fly as my current light sport eligible experimental.

But I guess the cut off weight had to be somewhere. Most of the older certified planes that are eligible are hand prop. I've hand propped a bunch of planes but as I get older it's not something I want to be doing.

BTW ... I wasn't consulted either ... :D
 
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What it is: Factory built AMD CH601XLi-B SLSA (basically a factory built Zenith CH601XL Zodiac with the "B Mod" structural upgrades and the operating limitations authorizing flight in IMC) converted to experimental.

Fixed costs:
Liability and hull insurance - $1,521 (I'm 79 so I think my age has affected my premium the last couple of years). Never any accidents, incidents, pilot deviations or claims in a little over 3,000 hours.

T-hangar, Charles M. Schulz - Sonoma County Airport - $356 per month, $4,380 annually

Sonoma County personal property tax - $450

Annual condition inspections (typical, including routine maintenance items and airworthiness repairs. Labor is not included since I perform maintenance and condition inspections myself) - $250 - $500. Every other year there's the $200 static system certification.

Variable costs: This is basically the cost of fuel (~6 gph) and oil and oil filter changes every 50 hours.

I don't set aside money for engine overhauls; if major work is required I just bite the bullet and pay the piper.

Hope this helps.
Thank you! Yes, that's a big help.
 
I own a Bristell, solid platform extremely well built but not cheap but they seem to hold their value. I trained in the Pipistrel and VANS RV-12, both are great for what they are. I almost went with the Pipistrel, the ability to convert a Sinus to a glider by shutting off the motor is kinda cool and and E-LSA Virus will cruise at 140.

I went with the Bristell for the fit, finish and engineered useful load hoping that as the rules change I might get some more load than 1320. I'm a big guy too and while the others are fine, the wide cabin of the Bristell is comfotable.
 
If you are targeting LSA... do NOT rule out the CTSW or CTLS... or as my friend Kent says... the new F2 from Flight Design. I owned a CTLSi for 3 years... loved every minute of it. The posse I would fly with sometimes was a hodgepodge of older GA's... Bonanza, Arrow, 172, 182 and the CTLSi kept right up at 1/3 of the operating cost and at equal or better comfort. Plus, there is a large installed base in North America with a network of mechanics and a USA distribution center with factory trained people who are experts at everything CT... the other sellers, other than Tecnam, do not have that critical mechanical backup. Go for a ride in one, the visibility and handling are amazing.

Agreed. My first flight in a CTLS was yesterday and the view was amazing. The took advantage of every sqr inch of that aircraft. Loved it. The auto pilot was on point!
5d5c92a3ea64f5ac53e480452e4711b1.jpg



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Watching AV Web in why planes crash - LSA’s have a higher rate than GA because of lighter wing loading. Harder to land.

Guess Paul Bertorelli hasn’t flown a SLING 2. Has got to be the easiest plane to land, well at least IMO.
 
FWIW: I recently helped an individual with a similar quest but from the maintenance side of things. One way to cull your list is to decide whether you want to perform your own maintenance/condition inspections which will remove all the TC'd aircraft from your list of options.

Most owners have nowhere near the experience to perform maintenance. Can you name the types of corrosion and how to correct them? Where to even look for it? How about rigging? Do you own the proper tools to verify cable tension? How's your safety wire skills? What is the proper TPI for .042? How do you service a battery lead acid battery? How do you tell when a cable requires replacement? The FAA should require an A&P/AI perform at least 1 condition inspection every 5 years.... because I will bet a warm diet cola that people who do their own condition inspections are doing it wrong.

On another forum the topic of the condition inspection and a list came up. Guy was happy to show his list... it didn't even comply with part 43 sub D. I asked was step 1 clean the AC? he said no. I didn't bother to reply further.
 
With ELSA kits, the builder has almost no leeway at all. LSA kits have to built 100% to factory plans using 100% factory supplied parts or they cannot be certified as ELSA.

That’s true but once certified an E-LSA can be modified beyond the S-LSA design upon which the kit was based.
 
Most owners have nowhere near the experience to perform maintenance. Can you name the types of corrosion and how to correct them? Where to even look for it? How about rigging? Do you own the proper tools to verify cable tension? How's your safety wire skills? What is the proper TPI for .042? How do you service a battery lead acid battery? How do you tell when a cable requires replacement? The FAA should require an A&P/AI perform at least 1 condition inspection every 5 years.... because I will bet a warm diet cola that people who do their own condition inspections are doing it wrong.

On another forum the topic of the condition inspection and a list came up. Guy was happy to show his list... it didn't even comply with part 43 sub D. I asked was step 1 clean the AC? he said no. I didn't bother to reply further.
This is true and I agree. I don't trust myself to make sure my aircraft is up to it's certificated standards besides basic ACS, I'm not an A&P. Sure, I can make sure nothing is wrong enough to where I should or shouldn't fly, but I wouldn't trust myself to maintain an airplane long term all by myself. I want a qualified separate party well-experienced in the mechanics and maintenance of the airplane I fly. Reliability is most important to me over anything.
 
This is an interesting discussion to me. Friend of mine had an in flight complete coolant failure in a Rotax powered experimental. As I remember, it was a maintenance issue, either an improperly rated hose or improperly installed clamp. Routine things that anyone *should* know, but pilots aren't specifically trained to know that hoses have ratings or that you can over torque a hose clamp. Maybe common sense, but that's pretty vague. Having an inspection by an A&P sounds like a good idea, unless the owner has equivalent experience.
 
This is an interesting discussion to me. Friend of mine had an in flight complete coolant failure in a Rotax powered experimental. As I remember, it was a maintenance issue, either an improperly rated hose or improperly installed clamp. Routine things that anyone *should* know, but pilots aren't specifically trained to know that hoses have ratings or that you can over torque a hose clamp. Maybe common sense, but that's pretty vague. Having an inspection by an A&P sounds like a good idea, unless the owner has equivalent experience.


The caveat to that is that I have known many A&P mechs that I wouldn’t trust to put gas in my car. The key is experience in the subject of inspection/maintenance. They need to be experienced in what they are inspecting or maintaining. In the EAA world, that doesn’t necessarily mean an A&P.
 
Agreed. My first flight in a CTLS was yesterday and the view was amazing. The took advantage of every sqr inch of that aircraft. Loved it. The auto pilot was on point!
5d5c92a3ea64f5ac53e480452e4711b1.jpg



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Look up and to the left; that plane in my avitar is N235Z.
 
This is an interesting discussion to me. Friend of mine had an in flight complete coolant failure in a Rotax powered experimental. As I remember, it was a maintenance issue, either an improperly rated hose or improperly installed clamp. Routine things that anyone *should* know, but pilots aren't specifically trained to know that hoses have ratings or that you can over torque a hose clamp. Maybe common sense, but that's pretty vague. Having an inspection by an A&P sounds like a good idea, unless the owner has equivalent experience.

True, but a lot of A&Ps know nothing about Rotax engines or other non "standard" setups. There are many cases of an A&P putting something back together wrong because it's not the way Lycoming or Cessna did it. For that matter, how many A&Ps know much about tube and fabric aircraft any more?
 
Are the newer Legend and CubCrafter CC planes more durable than, say, an original J-3? I would think 75 years of use (and perhaps a lot of hard use with training) could provide less forgiveness with putting stress on those old tubes in certain maneuvers one might find themselves having to make (or accidentally making). Are the newer versions built tougher?

In some ways the newer airplanes are better and in some ways they aren’t. I’ve seen things I don’t like about the design and construction of all the options so my suggestion would be to look at each and decide what you think is best.

I'd refer you again to Legend, but I believe they are essentially the same building strength. Also, the likelihood of a catastrophic structural failure with the Cub is pretty low. They're durable.

You seem quite taken with Legend. I wish I could say the same; I care for one LSA they built and a Super Cub they rebuilt. I’ve spent a ton of time fixing their mistakes. The super Cub was nicer when I dropped it off for the rebuild than it was when it returned.

Id advise the OP to proceed, with caution.
 
I care for one LSA they built and a Super Cub they rebuilt. I’ve spent a ton of time fixing their mistakes. The super Cub was nicer when I dropped it off for the rebuild than it was when it returned.
I reckon you're an A&P? I'm speaking as a tailwheel CFI. I've flown some examples and have yet to fly a bad Legend, but it would be interesting to hear what you've had to fix. The Super Cub they re-did that I've been flying in with a client is a pretty nice bird.
 
I reckon you're an A&P? I'm speaking as a tailwheel CFI. I've flown some examples and have yet to fly a bad Legend, but it would be interesting to hear what you've had to fix. The Super Cub they re-did that I've been flying in with a client is a pretty nice bird.

Im both a mechanic and a flight instructor. The Legend I have here is an unpleasant flyer compared to the real Super Cubs. I have some suspicions why but I’ve never wasted time making measurements to see why.

Work quality on the Legend was better than the Super Cub rebuild but there are parts of both that were amateur at best. The Super Cub wasn’t airworthy when it returned either.

Both look “nice” from 20 feet but don’t look too close.
 
True, but a lot of A&Ps know nothing about Rotax engines or other non "standard" setups. There are many cases of an A&P putting something back together wrong because it's not the way Lycoming or Cessna did it. For that matter, how many A&Ps know much about tube and fabric aircraft any more?

Sure, but in both cases they at least know enough to know they aren't familiar with those systems. They'd also know the importance of using appropriate materials and procedures to repair either. Now pilots also should know that, as common sense, but I don't remember anything about that as part of the private pilot curriculum.
 
Longest lived...
90 years, Taylor E-2 Cub, 2-358 June 1931
87 years, Taylor J-2 ATC-595, February 1936
84 years, multiple Aeronca 50s, precursors to the 7 and 11 series, under A-634 and A-675 January and April 1937
84 years, Taylorcraft, A series, A-643, February 1938
83 years, Piper J-3 Cub, A-691, June 1938
83 years, Luscombe 8 series, A-694, August 1938
83 years, Taylorcraft B series, A-696, August 1938
81 years, Aeronca Tandem, A-728, June 1940
80 years, Taylorcraft D series, A-746

118 years:
206311main_wright_brothers_full.jpg
 
Most Some owners have nowhere near the experience to perform maintenance.
FTFY. So how many of the current 150,000+ aircraft owners do you know to qualify your use of the term “most”? I'm sure you missed it, but the context of my post to the OP was simply to help in culling his list of options. But to respond to your comment MOST of the owners I KNOW that want to perform maintenance can hold their own when working on their aircraft which is about 30-40% of them.
Can you name the types of corrosion and how to correct them? Where to even look for it? How about rigging? Do you own the proper tools to verify cable tension? How's your safety wire skills? What is the proper TPI for .042? How do you service a battery lead acid battery? How do you tell when a cable requires replacement?
Yes to all. Can you? Your track record on mx questions isn't the best on PoA... like the one below.
The FAA should require an A&P/AI perform at least 1 condition inspection every 5 years.... because I will bet a warm diet cola that people who do their own condition inspections are doing it wrong.
I prefer a cold beer, but don’t you think the 4 ANNUAL Inspections the FAA requires an APIA to complete EACH year will satisfy your “1 condition inspection every 5 years” requirement?? :rolleyes:
 
This is an interesting discussion to me. Friend of mine had an in flight complete coolant failure in a Rotax powered experimental. As I remember, it was a maintenance issue, either an improperly rated hose or improperly installed clamp. Routine things that anyone *should* know, but pilots aren't specifically trained to know that hoses have ratings or that you can over torque a hose clamp. Maybe common sense, but that's pretty vague. Having an inspection by an A&P sounds like a good idea, unless the owner has equivalent experience.
For context from the AP side, one of the main reasons I quit performing condition inspections was the build quality of some E/ABs I ran into. One reason you can see such a varying difference of this quality in the E/AB world is that the FAA grants full authorization to perform maintenance on an E/AB aircraft through the simply act of buying an E/AB aircraft. No training required at all. While a good number of E/AB owners are diligent in their mx even those can make mistakes just as APs can to include me. But as to the posts identifying "many" or "a lot" of APs making excessive errors on E/AB aircraft I would be interested to see those lists or references as that is not what I've seen. But then again I haven't been everywhere.;)
 
Wasn't airworthy??!! That's pretty bad. What was it?

Missing placards, fuel leaks, hydraulic leaks, and noncompliance with some applied STCs to name a few. I have a laundry list of things I straightened out on it that weren't direct airworthiness issues, so I won't include them here. It really should be completely disassembled and recovered again to make it right. Come to think of it, I think one AD was not complied with too.

The whole purpose of sending the plane in question in for a rebuild is because we didn't feel I had the tools or the time to do as nice of a job. That was a bit of a mistake. Legend strikes me as a small shop that means well but either lacks the manpower or doesn’t understand the responsibility that is expected from an aircraft manufacturer.
 
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Sure, but in both cases they at least know enough to know they aren't familiar with those systems. They'd also know the importance of using appropriate materials and procedures to repair either.

They should, but I've seen aircraft that were messed up by mechanics who're sure that doing it the traditional way is right, without regard to the peculiarities of newer aircraft systems. And yes, I've seen pilots do the same thing.
 
They should, but I've seen aircraft that were messed up by mechanics who're sure that doing it the traditional way is right, without regard to the peculiarities of newer aircraft systems. And yes, I've seen pilots do the same thing.

Yep, within every profession there are some that got through that shouldn't have. Had an MD that caused me quite a bit of grief last year. I don't have a dog in this race, and I'm not suggesting any changes to any systems. My only observation was that I agree that *inspecting* and aircraft is a different skill set than *building* an aircraft. That's all. I know that's probably true in a lot of areas.
 
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