More kinna win for me: Low income housing next door

mikea

mikea

Touchdown! Greaser!
Gone West
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iWin
OK, so the plans to tear down my house to widen the highway are off for now but:

a neighbor said:
Well, if the burglaries weren't enough, the residents now be concerned about what is on the agenda for the Monday, March 14, Zoning Board of Appeals meeting - as you can see from the attachment, a company is trying to build a public housing project for "seniors over 55" - the zoning was approved in 2007 for a private, 62 and over development similar to others on the North Shore. However, due to the economy, the development was never built.

I heard about this when I was trying to find out what the Village was doing about finding my camera from the criminals who broke into my home this week. ...
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My lot is just over the fence. No reason to give us any notice. You know in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, "The plans have been on display at city hall. If you can't take an interest into local affairs..."

The good news is, purely by happenstance, we got the word almost 24 hours in advance. We met our neighbors and they'll be there. Now we'll hear that we had to respond in writing.

We've been asking why there were survey lines there. "Oh, nothing."

That neighbor had her house for sale and disclosed what she knew on the 3rd visit from the buyers. The buyers bought another house.
 
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If you want an undetectable way for your house to go up in flames...
 
Maybe it won't be so bad. I've got some pretty low-income living not far from me (trailer park like two blocks away) and you wouldn't know it in my neighborhood. The roads are structured in a way that provides separation (no roads between park and subdivision) - and the majority of them are good people anyways.

The only time you can notice the less than stellar element is if you decide to go hang out in the local bar(s).
 
Second Amendment time.
 
jesse said:
Maybe it won't be so bad. I've got some pretty low-income living not far from me (trailer park like two blocks away) and you wouldn't know it in my neighborhood. The roads are structured in a way that provides separation (no roads between park and subdivision) - and the majority of them are good people anyways.

The only time you can notice the less than stellar element is if you decide to go hang out in the local bar(s).
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We have section 8 housing behind this and we already had one kid who lives there who was walking off with anything not nailed down and things that were. I caught him at my place and Bubba chased him away. He got scared enough that he never came near my place again.

The cops went into his apartment and found all the stuff that was taken from the one neighbor's yard inside - including stuff like a garden trellis - with his mom proudly beaming and saying she didn't know how he found so much stuff.

I know that even next to ("Good Times") Cabrini-Green they were building upscale housing and surviving, but there they eventually tore down the high rises, so they could move the residents out by us.

Part of the plans are to build a sidewalk through to our side so they can grab and go easier.
 
I would tend to agree with Jesse. I was raised right on the border between Harlem and the Upper East Side in Manhattan (on the UES half). For those not familiar with the area, it's a very, very significant difference. Such that I won't park my truck on 97th St., but I will on 96th St.

You wouldn't notice. Other than the occasional homeless panhandler (which you'll get sitting outside of Tiffany's even), there was an invisible line that was rarely crossed, much like Jesse's trailer park neighbors. And honestly, most of them were good people anyway (well, as good as anyone in New York City can be).

But, if you're really concerned, you can sell your house at a terrific loss, and spend a lot of money to move elsewhere, where the same thing will happen again.
 
When I lived in Orlando, it was in a quiet little suburban development that had two entrances. Across the street from one of the entrances was a huge lot that was a greenfield site. One day the bulldozers showed up. Turns out it had been zoned for low income housing 35 years earlier, but they'd never built on it.

Mind you, I worked at home and kept my window shades up in my office. We lived on a cul-de-sac. Fast forward to the place being open. All day long a parade of beat up old cars with the seats reclined back to there and the bass bumping, cruising through the neighborhood, turning around in front of me. Burglaries shot up 1500 percent in a year.

A few months later we were selling it to move to Jax. The eventual buyer called to come look at it "within an hour." There was a cop car right in the middle of the street because the house across the way had been broken into. Fortunately, by the time the buyer got there the cop had moved the car into that neighbor's driveway.
 
mikea said:
OK, so the plans to tear down my house to widen the highway are off for now but:



My lot is just over the fence. No reason to give us any notice. You know in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, "The plans have been on display at city hall. If you can't take an interest into local affairs..."

The good news is, purely by happenstance, we got the word almost 24 hours in advance. We met our neighbors and they'll be there. Now we'll hear that we had to respond in writing.

BTW, one neighbor called the mayor, "It's a done deal." :incazzato: We've been asking why there were survey lines there. "Oh, nothing."

The word is that the "seniors over 55" part is going to be dropped. The major portion of our tax bill being the schools so we can welcome 100 more kids to pay for.

That neighbor had her house for sale and disclosed what she knew on the 3rd visit from the buyers. The buyers bought another house.

Two other neighbors say they'll sell.
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If you want to control what goes on around you, you pretty much need to own all the land around you.

If you want to live around "your kind of people", you need to find a fully built-out area that has "your kind of people" in it, and that's really only a temporary condition because neighborhoods change over time.

Not knowing where this project is in the approval process, if it were me, I'd get on the phone with my councilperson and see what your options are for objecting.

It might not be as bad as your neighbor is portraying, though. Mercy Housing is a not-for-profit developer, so they may provide some kind of support services to residents or have some kind of qualification process for residents that controls the riff-raff level.
 
I thought you'd be OK with this? Why the heartburn? Its the liberal thing to do. Its your and our tax dollars at work for the poor and downtrodden.


:D
 
I'm more concerned with the " Done Deal" Comment. Here in PA you need to give written notice in the papers and mail notice to all property owners whos property line is with in 500' of a proposed project.

Mike show up at the meeting with as many folks as you can muster. If it works the way it does here first you get to ask questions then you get to state a position. Try to get the nighbors to avoid the angry mob with pitchfork syndrome. They should present their case intelligently. It is certainly appropriate to metion that you were told that the project is a "done deal" by the mayor and ask questions about that. It is important to ask how any project will benefit the town and if you disagree in your presentation tell them so and give testimony about how it will adversly affect you.

You might not win but you need to be heard. It would also be worthwile having the neighbors pool some money to get a consult with a land planning / zoning or municipal law attorney. Around here the test for a zoning variance is whether there is a hardship that ( is not owner created) that prevents the land from being used under its present zoning. law of course could be different in Illinois. Best of Luck.
 
AdamZ said:
I'm more concerned with the " Done Deal" Comment. Here in PA you need to give written notice in the papers and mail notice to all property owners whos property line is with in 500' of a proposed project.

Mike show up at the meeting with as many folks as you can muster. If it works the way it does here first you get to ask questions then you get to state a position. Try to get the nighbors to avoid the angry mob with pitchfork syndrome. They should present their case intelligently. It is certainly appropriate to metion that you were told that the project is a "done deal" by the mayor and ask questions about that. It is important to ask how any project will benefit the town and if you disagree in your presentation tell them so and give testimony about how it will adversly affect you.

You might not win but you need to be heard. It would also be worthwile having the neighbors pool some money to get a consult with a land planning / zoning or municipal law attorney. Around here the test for a zoning variance is whether there is a hardship that ( is not owner created) that prevents the land from being used under its present zoning. law of course could be different in Illinois. Best of Luck.
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Just to add on, the general rule is that for zoning and other land-use type of issues, the gov't agency has to be in "strict compliance" with all of the notice provisions. So if there are notice requirements that haven't been met by the agency, you might have something there.

Of course, the ultimate effect is limited. If there were a problem with notice, the council just bumps the issue back a few months and sends out the appropriate notices.
 
AdamZ said:
I'm more concerned with the " Done Deal" Comment. Here in PA you need to give written notice in the papers and mail notice to all property owners whos property line is with in 500' of a proposed project.
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You're also talking about Pennsylvania vs. Illinois, and I don't need to remind anyone on this forum of what Chicago did for aviation without consent or notice of the people (including the people hangaring their planes there).
 
AdamZ said:
I'm more concerned with the " Done Deal" Comment. Here in PA you need to give written notice in the papers and mail notice to all property owners whos property line is with in 500' of a proposed project.

Mike show up at the meeting with as many folks as you can muster. If it works the way it does here first you get to ask questions then you get to state a position. Try to get the nighbors to avoid the angry mob with pitchfork syndrome. They should present their case intelligently. It is certainly appropriate to metion that you were told that the project is a "done deal" by the mayor and ask questions about that. It is important to ask how any project will benefit the town and if you disagree in your presentation tell them so and give testimony about how it will adversly affect you.

You might not win but you need to be heard. It would also be worthwile having the neighbors pool some money to get a consult with a land planning / zoning or municipal law attorney. Around here the test for a zoning variance is whether there is a hardship that ( is not owner created) that prevents the land from being used under its present zoning. law of course could be different in Illinois. Best of Luck.
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Thanks, Adam. That's pretty much how were proceeding.

AFAIK, the property is zoned residential - meaning single family homes.

The drawing on the notice shows only the overhead view with all of the plantings and (TYP) trees being called out, oh, and a sidewalk on my fence line. No mention of minor details like how many units or how tall it will be. No elevation view, of course.

Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Just to add on, the general rule is that for zoning and other land-use type of issues, the gov't agency has to be in "strict compliance" with all of the notice provisions. So if there are notice requirements that haven't been met by the agency, you might have something there.

Of course, the ultimate effect is limited. If there were a problem with notice, the council just bumps the issue back a few months and sends out the appropriate notices.
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No notice. And we will hammer the lack of notice.

With help from one neighbor I'm doing my civic duty to get the word out. There's a lighted 7 foot sign in my front yard being lettered advising about the meeting. I dunno why I haven't had the doorbell ring yet.

I think that means that I'm on record, doing my civic duty.

We met and told all of our neighbors last night.
 
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mikea said:
The property is zoned residential - meaning single family homes. As I said, Cabrini-Green goes low rise and we get the hi-rise with their residents.

The drawing on the notice shows only the overhead view with all of the plantings and (TYP) trees being called out, oh, and a sidewalk on my fence line. No mention of minor details like how many units or how tall it will be. No elevation view, of course.
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You really need to get your hands on the city's zoning map, zoning regulations and a full copy of what the developer wants to do. There are a number of "residential" zoning designations, from single family, to multi-family, to mobile home parks.

If the developer is proposing a zoning change, usually the minimum they have to submit to a Planning & Zoning department includes a plat plan showing how the building sits on the site, along with elevation views with basic dimensions, number of units, how they meet parking requirements, etc.

If the Planning & Zoning staff has reviewed the project, they will have generated a report with their review comments and that's another thing you should get a copy of.
 
It would appear that this is a Zoning Hearing Board meeting, no a Planning Commission meeting. If that's correct it would be good to know what they are asking for - a variance to existing zoning, a special exemption or an intrepretation. Each works a bit differently. If indeed this is before the Hearing Board, there may or may not be a lot of documentation, BUT they do have to specifically ask for what they want.

Lots of good advice on what to do... showing up at the meeting is imperative. As Adamz mentioned, they do (at least in PA) need to show some "hardship" not just "this is what I want". That part can be subjective. Reviewing the zoning maps and definitions will give you and your group a basis for an argument. If they haven't done the notice correctly, you will gain some time.

Good for you on getting involved. These battles can be fought and won, just takes the effort.

Gary
 
I had at least two newspapers on the way.

So.....let's guess they called the mayor....

Zoning Board of Appeals

Agenda


* March 14, 2011 (due to difficulties with a court reporter, the hearing for the [site] has been deferred until April 11, 2011)
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You know the saying that light cleans ...?
 
mikea said:
I had at least two newspapers on the way.

So.....let's guess they called the mayor....



You know the saying that light cleans ...?
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Nice. In the meantime, my suggestion is to brush up on both the local zoning code and the statutes that apply to zoning (there are at least two levels of law at work here, maybe more). Start with the broad (state statutes) and work your way to the specific (county or municipal regs).

FYI, zoning codes are...mindnumbing. I hate them.
 
That's good, you've bought some time!

Now you can do your homework - and that includes the who's who part, not just the zoning rules and regs.
 
AdamZ said:
You might not win but you need to be heard.
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I believe that colloquially known as... A waste of time.

I'm watching a bunch of folks trying to keep an underpass from being built into the back side of my development. The business park that will have to be leveled is vacant, so the owners are happy, the constriction company avoided having to have competitive bids on the project somehow, the City Council see it as a way to tell all the folks that their original traffic planning for the one major road that passes under the Interstate doesn't suck, it gives the city a way to bypass all that traffic "temporarily" while they rebuild that same Interstate bridge so as it's not a death trap (fatality there just last week)...

And some dude from our neighborhood is out "making sure we're heard" and sending frustrated letters to us all via door-to-door delivery and the neighborhood newspaper (yes, we have a real newspaper - kinda cool - all funded by local business owner advertising and published in the 'hood, not a big local newspaper company). He's going to have wasted at least four years of his life and free-time by the end of it all, and there will still be an underpass built, I predict. :dunno:
 
Mike,

A couple of things you and your neighbors should think about: your village code establishes explicit standards that the zba is supposed to consider for issuance of a special use permit, learn these and treat them as a hit list; the zba is advisory only - the village board can and may ignore the recommendations of the zba. So if you "win" with the zba you still are only part way there (and the village board has NO guidelines, standards or, frankly obligation to do right by you if it conflicts with their view of progress).

Finally, and most importantly, don't let anyone approach this with a nimby argument-- you will get tuned out. The zba hears from people all the time about how the neighborhood should stay the same as when they moved in. Won't happen and you'll be viewed as naive at the least and hypocritical at worst. Either way you'll be disregarded.

I've done land use and entitlement for a long time. This is winnable. If your crew needs some advice, I might be persuaded to part with it for the cost of a good cup of coffee.....

Patrick
 
Zoning out low income housing, zoning out airports what is the difference? Both are using gov't to steal other peoples property rights. Get together with your neighbors and buy the lot, move, or suck it up. And never again ***** about an airport being closed by neighbors. Sad.
 
Pjsmith said:
Mike,

A couple of things you and your neighbors should think about: your village code establishes explicit standards that the zba is supposed to consider for issuance of a special use permit, learn these and treat them as a hit list; the zba is advisory only - the village board can and may ignore the recommendations of the zba. So if you "win" with the zba you still are only part way there (and the village board has NO guidelines, standards or, frankly obligation to do right by you if it conflicts with their view of progress).

Finally, and most importantly, don't let anyone approach this with a nimby argument-- you will get tuned out. The zba hears from people all the time about how the neighborhood should stay the same as when they moved in. Won't happen and you'll be viewed as naive at the least and hypocritical at worst. Either way you'll be disregarded.

I've done land use and entitlement for a long time. This is winnable. If your crew needs some advice, I might be persuaded to part with it for the cost of a good cup of coffee.....

Patrick
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Thanks, Patrick! We'll forward you a Chicago-style pizza.

I'm not personally against the idea. I'm against not being able to get information on what is planned and the multiple signs of it stealthily pushed to be the "done deal."

They hinted that the variance was to eliminate the 5 foot setback from my side.

I spoke up and asked for a copy of what is being discussed. They asked for my info. We'll see.

We talked to a lawyer who said that if they changed anything from the 1999 and 2005 plans they have go through all of the hearings all over again. We know they changed the developer and the siting requiring the variance.

I can't stop others from doing the NIBMY thing, except maybe by discussing it. As above, that's not my complaint. For now the lack of info is my complaint.

The reschedule to 4/11 "because with all of this interest we need a stenographer to record your comments" is after the trustee election on 4/5. Somethin', ain't it?
 
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ClimbnSink said:
Zoning out low income housing, zoning out airports what is the difference? Both are using gov't to steal other peoples property rights. Get together with your neighbors and buy the lot, move, or suck it up. And never again ***** about an airport being closed by neighbors. Sad.
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The big difference is that the airports were there before the housing developments in most cases.
 
Both use the law to stop someone from using their property because you disagree with the use. They are the same. Folks stopping low income housing with zoning are just as big wankers as those closing airports with zoning.
Trapper John said:
There's a big difference between restrictions on use and taking.
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