Moral Dilemna - Unsafe Plane for Sale

Tampico Trauma

Tampico Trauma

Line Up and Wait
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Mauled Formerly known as Tampico Trauma
So, as I sit in my office browsing barnstormers like I often do, I came across a PA-28 for sale... Blue light special, high time motor, fresh annual.

Well,

Actually, two ads by two different people for the same plane.

It's got a high-time motor but good compressions and a fresh annual.

But there's much more to the story.

That plane belonged to my friend's uncle. He sold it to my friend for a song. Out of annual for 6 years... they ferried it over to my home field for annual and to get it back up and running. After opening the plane up, it was determined to have severe corrosion. Flap mounts, in front of the aileron mounts, and even the spar was separating at the rear.

As my friend is working on his PPL, he realized this was too much of a project. He documented the corrosion with pictures and put the bird on Barnstormers with full disclosure. He fielded calls for a week about how he was asking too much and that the plane was worthless. His uncle refunded the money and told my friend to get rid of it. Well, he did. for $4500, full disclosure and over 80 detailed pictures of the bad areas.

Fast forward less than two weeks, and the plane was posted on Barnstormers with a Fresh Annual.

This airplane shouldn't even be flying, but these (known) flippers have put it out on the market fully knowing that the airplane shouldn't even be airworthy.

While I believe in Karma, I've also almost bought a plane with similar issues....and at that price point, most unsuspecting buyers would pass on a pre-buy. I know, because I almost did.
Couple that with my near-death experience on the fourth solo from hell when my big fan quit spinning on the plane I trained in, I just don't want to see someone perish in a plane that they thought was airworthy while these two characters pull a $10k+ heist on someone.

What would you do in this situation? Let it lie or take some sort of action.
 
You could report your findings to the local FSDO and let them take it from there. I don't know what your intent is, but if it's to post an ad to question their credibility than I would highly suggest not going there.
 
I saw that plane for sale - the engine time numbers looked pretty off. I'd report it to Barnstormers, and possibly to the local FSDO - beats the hell out of reading an NTSB report about it knowing you could have done something.
 
This is a dilemma, although I don't know what you could do at this point. Are you certain that it doesn't have new wings on it? Perhaps contact the seller, not saying who you are, and as for some more details about the aircraft. I understand that you feel they are concealing the truth to potential buyers, but it is the buyer's responsibility to discover these things before purchasing an aircraft. That may be a crappy answer, but you'd need more proof to substantiate these claims. I don't doubt your good intentions...it's a matter of needing more information.
 
Remember the old adage,buyer beware. It can't be stressed enough,always get a survey.
 
frfly172 said:
Remember the old adage,buyer beware. It can't be stressed enough,always get a survey.
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True enough, but when a first time airplane buyer finds a "deal" from an unscrupulous seller, tragedy can occur. I agree with calling the seller and then the FSDO, at least then your conscience is clear!

Post the ad, one of us will call. :)
 
before you report it I'd make an anonymous inquiry as "new pilot" by asking the "wrong" questions regarding the plane's condition. I think you already know how the questions will be answered but it needs to be documented. You don't know to what degree the known problems will be hidden or disclosed. If you send e-mail inquiries and they hide the facts then I'd take that communication to the FSDO.
 
If I knew for sure it was the same airplane, I would not hesitate to call the FSDO. If the plane has been repaired, no harm, no foul. If it hasnt, you may save someones life, certainly saved them from being scammed.
 
I'm in the same boat of "Could save a life, call FSDO" camp.
 
From the OP's description, the repair work involved, if done, will cost way more than $17.5K to perform.

I got burned when I bought my Turbo Arrow. There was some undisclosed damage to the plane necessitating the replacement of a rear bulkhead (the tail was about ready to fall off) and it cost me $10K to fix that.

Normally I'm in the camp of stay out of other people's business, but in this case I would probably also be inclined to go to the FSDO with some due diligence up front.
 
If it got a fresh annual and was subsequently found unairworthy, shouldn't action be taken against the A&P, how many other planes are out there with problems?
 
teejayevans said:
If it got a fresh annual and was subsequently found unairworthy, shouldn't action be taken against the A&P, how many other planes are out there with problems?
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TONS! I don't trust most A&Ps any more than I do the kid working at Toyota. Most shops I have been in have non a&p mechanics doing the work under the license of the A&P owner.
 
Do you know for a fact that the repairs have not been made? If it's the way you describe and a potential fatal outcome could occur, I think I'd have to intervene.
 
Let's say someone takes a nibble, does the pre-buy and this stuff is discovered. Does it end up in the logbooks? Was the corrosion ever entered in the logbooks to begin with?
 
I agree, call FSDO. Forget money, we are talking about people's lives. Imagine some new pilot buys it and takes up his wife and kid, and the worst happens. How would you feel with yourself reading the article.
 
steingar said:
I'd go straight to the nearest FSDO with the goods. Screw anyone's feelings, someone could die. How would the OP feel if the sale went through and the wings fell off while the pilot was flying his three kids.
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Absolutely this. If everything was repaired, then whatever - everyone goes about their merry way, no harm no foul. If something awful happens, you will have that regret weighing on you for the rest of your life. The fact that you are asking about it shows you already care, and that it is already weighing on you, and nothing has even happened yet. "See something, say something."
 
I'd do some research first, if this plane was repaired, or the damage was overstated, I'd not want to go down that road if he plane is airworthy.
 
The FSDO has an anonymous reporting process. They investigate every inquiry.
 
teejayevans said:
If it got a fresh annual and was subsequently found unairworthy, shouldn't action be taken against the A&P, how many other planes are out there with problems?
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There likey will be. I once did a pre-buy on an Arrow on which there were some illegal and non-airworthy repairs done. Had an inspector look it over and hang a condition notice on it. He later told me an IA lost his ticket for signing that one off.
 
Are the friend and uncle not engaged in this dialog? Laudable that you want to do the right thing, but as a third party the seller is likely to shrug you off. Either of the two previous owners will have more standing. Don't disagree with any of the other suggestions though.
 
Friend feels a bit concerned, but is too afraid to start anything. Uncle is way too old to care


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Let the FAA do their job. If it was repaired properly, great. If it is unsafe, hopefully they take action accordingly.
 
I personally never put myself in a position to be publicly recognized as the enforcer, however I will go to an agency responsible for enforcement if I believe in good faith something dangerous or harmful could take place.
 
Couldn't you go to the seller and inquire about the damage and whether it's been repaired. Let them know that you know the plane well and that there was some very serious things that need to be addressed. Let them know you're coming to them for their own benefit, and the benefit of the future owner, and be nice about it. Perhaps they aren't aware and will thank you for the info, but it seems unlikely. If they shrug you off, or give you a line of bull, be persistent. Say something like "Guys, I know you need to make a profit, but this could kill somebody, and you don't want that on your conscience if you could prevent it, do you?" If they continue to shrug it off, then let them know that you couldn't live with knowing about the danger and letting it go undisclosed, and that you may feel compelled to bring the FSDO into it if they don't want to either disclose the information or make the repairs. It appears that you feel pretty strongly about it, and if you are pretty certain about this, then I wouldn't give a crap about starting something. It life and death stuff here.

I know that it is sticking you nose into someone else's business, but sometimes you have to speak up when something is very serious. I would let them know that you aren't trying to smear their name and have no interest in getting anyone in trouble. I think man to man is always the better approach to take initially, before getting any official people involved. There is NO shame in tying to save a life. I'd encourage you to do what you can.

Just my $.02
 
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Here's a little bit of goodness.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The add says this...fresh annual great shape

You really don't want to see someone get hurt.
 
Grum.Man said:
TONS! I don't trust most A&Ps any more than I do the kid working at Toyota. Most shops I have been in have non a&p mechanics doing the work under the license of the A&P owner.
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This is as true as all owners are cheapskates.
 
FSDO isn't going to give you much credibility unless you have proof this corrosion is a safety hazard, and pictures are not that proof. you best have your ducts in a row before you place your self as defendant in a liable suit.
 
teejayevans said:
If it got a fresh annual and was subsequently found unairworthy, shouldn't action be taken against the A&P, how many other planes are out there with problems?
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There are plenty of old crates out there with big problems. Faked logs, lies, lousy mechanics, etc. simply report what you know about the airplane the last time you were aware of its problems. Very doubtful this will get you in trouble. I'm definitely in the " turn it in " camp. It would NOT be a "moral dilemma" for me.
 
How about you start by clicking the "report this ad" link on Barnstormers?
 
GLMS_NC said:
The FSDO has an anonymous reporting process. They investigate every inquiry.
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Now THIS I have a real problem with.

If it's not important enough to put your name on it publicly, it's not worth reporting.

If you're going to report someone, have the sack to OWN IT.
 
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James331 said:
Now THIS I have a real problem with.

If it's not important enough to put your name in it publicly, you it's not worth reporting.

If you're going to report someone, have the sack to OWN IT.
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Yes, but suppose you're at the airport and you see this guy do lines of coke off a hooker's um... back... and he immediately climbs into the left seat of an airplane without doing a pre-flight or filing a flight plan. You're about to report him but then you remember he's a lawyer who specializes in libel cases and the licence plate on his Mercedes reads SUE U 2.

Or maybe its just your boss.

So, I appreciate the sentiment but there are a lot situations where a simple tip-off even if it is totally honest and for all the right reasons might have devastating consequences to the tipper. And maybe a person should be willing to face that too... but if you have a wife and kids they may not be able to eat your moral integrity after the lawyer is finished.
 
cowman said:
Yes, but suppose you're at the airport and you see this guy do lines of coke off a hooker's um... back... and he immediately climbs into the left seat of an airplane without doing a pre-flight or filing a flight plan. You're about to report him but then you remember he's a lawyer who specializes in libel cases and the licence plate on his Mercedes reads SUE U 2.

Or maybe its just your boss.

So, I appreciate the sentiment but there are a lot situations where a simple tip-off even if it is totally honest and for all the right reasons might have devastating consequences to the tipper. And maybe a person should be willing to face that too... but if you have a wife and kids they may not be able to eat your moral integrity after the lawyer is finished.
Click to expand...


You still tell the guy first then report him, trying it hide under a rock while throughing rocks is a cowards move and really lacks any honor that your initial noble intentions may have claimed.

If you're going to push someone in front of the government bus, at least look them in the eye as you're doing it, right or wrong.
 
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