Moral Dilemna - Unsafe Plane for Sale

Palmpilot said:
...says the guy who posts anonymously. :rofl:
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There is a difference between shooting the chit on a forum and reporting folks to the Feds.


If I ever decided to come after you, or report you to the goberment, you would know who I am.
 
James331 said:
There is a difference between shooting the chit on a forum and reporting folks to the Feds...
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Yeah, only one of those makes the concerns available to the whole world.

Rumor has it that there are FAA employees who read aviation forums.
 
Let's see. Would I feel guilty about reporting to the Feds an airplane I KNOW it's not safe and it is being sold by a scammer purely for profit and without regard for someone else's safety or financial well being? The answer is NO! I would feel far more guilty, and would hunt me for the rest of my life, if I later learned someone got hurt because I didn't want to get involved or afraid I might get sued. Report to the Feds what you know and let them do their job.
 
no dilemma for me. turn in the sob and do as much as i can to f him up .it will be un airworthy for some reason anyway, all aircraft are if you look hard enough. and if i am wrong i have plenty of insurance to cover me for slander ect.it is part of all homeowners insurance policy's its called "personal injury" coverage
 
Palmpilot said:
Yeah, only one of those makes the concerns available to the whole world.

Rumor has it that there are FAA employees who read aviation forums.
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I'd be happy to tell this to any Feds listing.

I just believe that if a matter isn't important enough to tie your name to, it's not important enough to bother anyone with.

If I found a aircraft which I really KNEW was unairworthy, I'd tell the owner to not screw people over, tell him my safety concerns and tell him if he tried to push it off on folks Id report him to the Feds.

Just a different less cowardly way of doing things.
 
FWIW....that picture isn't enough for me to say it's unairworthy. I'd want to see more.

Yes, it looks fugly, but it might be fine. The flap structure is attached to the lower portion not the corroded area.

Yes, I'm an A&P/IA. :D....and an AeroEngineer. :eek:
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
FWIW....that picture isn't enough for me to say it's unairworthy. I'd want to see more.

Yes, it looks fugly, but it might be fine. The flap structure is attached to the lower portion not the corroded area.

Yes, I'm an A&P/IA. :D
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No one trusts you around here from what I've read.
 
I've been an A&P in GA since the early 80s and that looks like simple surface corrosion to me. Neglected surface corrosion to be sure, but once removed, zinced, and repainted it's fine. I can't, of course be 100% sure, just looking at photographs, but I worked near the ocean and have seen tons of fretting corrosion like this. As long as there's no real deep pitting or stress cracks it's repairable. And I doubt any A&P IA would risk their ticket signing off this A/C as airworthy if it wasn't. :)

BTW, 1st post here, Hi everyone!
 
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Tom-D said:
This is as true as all owners are cheapskates.
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This is exactly what I would expect a crooked A&P to say lol jk

In all seriousness though the two are in no way related. Something is either airworthy per the regs or it is not and does not get signed off.

The only reasoning I can think of for thinking the two are exclusive is that one A&P shop losses business to the other. If that's the car the one loosing business is either charging too much, taking too long, or the other shop is cutting corners. If the later is the case then that shop should be reported.
 
James331 said:
You still tell the guy first then report him, trying it hide under a rock while throughing rocks is a cowards move and really lacks any honor that your initial noble intentions may have claimed.

If you're going to push someone in front of the government bus, at least look them in the eye as you're doing it, right or wrong.
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I don't agree at all. Reporting an A&P or IA can get your name black listed for others. You think an A&P is going to take a chance working on a guys plane that just cost the A&P and/or the IA at the airport next door their license?? If you believe you do good work than yes you should but I will wager most A&P shops know they cut corners.
 
Nick D said:
I've been an A&P in GA since the early 80s and that looks like simple surface corrosion to me. Neglected surface corrosion to be sure, but once removed, zinced, and repainted it's fine. I can't, of course be 100% sure, just looking at photographs, but I worked near the ocean and have seen tons of fretting corrosion like this. As long as there's no real deep pitting or stress cracks it's repairable. And I doubt any A&P IA would risk their ticket signing off this A/C as airworthy if it wasn't. :)

BTW, 1st post here, Hi everyone!
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Welcome aboard. Strap yourself in, it gets rough. :rollercoaster:
 
Grum.Man said:
This is exactly what I would expect a crooked A&P to say lol jk
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And that is exactly how a cheap owner responds. Get a life Sonny, Many here are simply A&P haters, I'll add you to the list.
 
Grum.Man said:
I don't agree at all. Reporting an A&P or IA can get your name black listed for others. You think an A&P is going to take a chance working on a guys plane that just cost the A&P and/or the IA at the airport next door their license?? If you believe you do good work than yes you should but I will wager most A&P shops know they cut corners.
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I don't believe you have a real grip on what any A&P does or the risk they take when they return your aircraft to service.
Tell us why you hate A&Ps.
 
I guess by now many of you have figured out why most Free-lances A&Ps have a very selective customer list. and choose to not work for owners that have attitudes like Grum.Man
 
James331 said:
I'd be happy to tell this to any Feds listing.

I just believe that if a matter isn't important enough to tie your name to, it's not important enough to bother anyone with.

If I found a aircraft which I really KNEW was unairworthy, I'd tell the owner to not screw people over, tell him my safety concerns and tell him if he tried to push it off on folks Id report him to the Feds.

Just a different less cowardly way of doing things.
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It just seems ironic to be posting the above anonymously. :dunno:
 
Horse stuff, ragging on annoynymous reporting. . .the FSDO won't drive over to the guy's house and execute him. Or kill his kids. Or lift his ticket. Or even fine him. They won't even throw him under a bus.

If they do anything, they'll make a polite inquiry, and maybe, maybe ask to see the docs and take a look at the plane.

Not a hell of a lot of inconvenience for a situation that looks, in all honesty to the OP, to be sketchy, at best. The OP isn't getting paid to tangle with crooks or psychos, and doesn't have Fed law enforcement, immunity, and legal back-up.
 
Grum.Man said:
I don't agree at all. Reporting an A&P or IA can get your name black listed for others. You think an A&P is going to take a chance working on a guys plane that just cost the A&P and/or the IA at the airport next door their license?? If you believe you do good work than yes you should but I will wager most A&P shops know they cut corners.
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So better be sure you know what you're taking about before you report someone.

If you did call in and publicly call out a AP/seller who was trying to pass off a death trap, the only person who would be getting blacklisted would be the guy trying to pass off the death trap. And rightfully so.

Now if you have little grasp of what you're talking about, cause a bunch of trouble for someone for no good reason, got found out, which you likely would, yeah, doubt anyone is going to want to help you out. And rightfully so.



Palmpilot said:
It just seems ironic to be posting the above anonymously. :dunno:
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Re read my last few posts, if you still don't get it, re read them again, if you don't get it after that, let me know and I'll hold your hand and walk you through the difference, ok?
 
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Nick D said:
I've been an A&P in GA since the early 80s and that looks like simple surface corrosion to me. Neglected surface corrosion to be sure, but once removed, zinced, and repainted it's fine. I can't, of course be 100% sure, just looking at photographs, but I worked near the ocean and have seen tons of fretting corrosion like this. As long as there's no real deep pitting or stress cracks it's repairable. And I doubt any A&P IA would risk their ticket signing off this A/C as airworthy if it wasn't. :)

BTW, 1st post here, Hi everyone!
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Welcome Nick!!! POA, the aviation funny farm but a great group aviators...:goofy::goofy::goofy:
 
The seller returned my call, having been referred to this post and informed me that it is a different airplane that he has for sale. For what it's worth, I will go with that, and for all that's being said.

While the hours and years match the other aircraft exclusively, it must be a complete coincidence that this was the airplane. Who'd have thought.


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On that note, I thank you all for your input and let's hope that everything is on the up and up.


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Since he's reading this thread now, I will say our conversation was brief and I preferred to keep it that way. I will have to take his word that he's selling two Cherokees with identical hours years and that this different colored plane at a different airport is in fact, not the same aircraft. I hope he does the right thing and I wish him the best.


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Tampico Trauma said:
That plane belonged to my friend's uncle. He sold it to my friend for a song. Out of annual for 6 years... they ferried it over to my home field for annual and to get it back up and running. After opening the plane up, it was determined to have severe corrosion. Flap mounts, in front of the aileron mounts, and even the spar was separating at the rear.
.
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I'd ask to see YOUR A&P ticket and how you have come to the knowledge on your own expertise that this aircraft is unairworthy? And how the FAA gave a ferry permit to an unairworthy airplane without some sort of question(s) being asked.
 
If I understand correctly, the FAA does not regulate sellers of used airplanes. So there's no point calling the FAA to blow the whistle on the seller.

The FAA does regulate A&Ps. One could contemplate contacting the FAA to blow the whistle on the A&P who signed the annual -- or maybe not. Personally, I wouldn't feel that I have the expertise or authority to blow that whistle myself.
 
weirdjim said:
I'd ask to see YOUR A&P ticket and how you have come to the knowledge on your own expertise that this aircraft is unairworthy? And how the FAA gave a ferry permit to an unairworthy airplane without some sort of question(s) being asked.
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Good thing you're not putting the burden on the seller. That would be onerous.
 
I do appreciate whichever curmudgeon from this thread that took it upon themselves to bring the seller on though....because the more I look at this, the more it stinks!

Airworthiness? I can't determine that. But I can call them as I see them.

I almost fell victim to cheap-plane-itis... It was a 67 Musketeer. With a "fresh annual"....

If it weren't for missing logs and a one-hour abbreviated prebuy with an A&P, that plane could be sitting in disrepair on my ramp right now.

The seller was downright misrepresenting and when he was called on it, he ran my deposit check straight to the bank and cashed it before I could kill the deal.


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Tampico Trauma said:
I do appreciate whichever curmudgeon from this thread that took it upon themselves to bring the seller on though....because the more I look at this, the more it stinks!

Airworthiness? I can't determine that. But I can call them as I see them.

I almost fell victim to cheap-plane-itis... It was a 67 Musketeer. With a "fresh annual"....

If it weren't for missing logs and a one-hour abbreviated prebuy with an A&P, that plane could be sitting in disrepair on my ramp right now.

The seller was downright misrepresenting and when he was called on it, he ran my deposit check straight to the bank and cashed it before I could kill the deal.


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While in A&P school a fellow student purchased a C-182G. A few months later, we discovered the winglets on it were not correct. That led to a discovery that his G model 182 has P model wings. I poured through the logbooks to find where things went awry. This is to say, aircraft get misrepresented often and it is a shame.

Prebuy inspections are very important.

Some mechanics are schisters just like owners.

Airworthiness isn't as fine of a line as the FAA wants it to be.

Be careful buying airplanes.

I hope the aircraft that was sold with potentially unairworthy corrosion gets repaired before it hurts someone. And I hope that ferry permit that was originally applied for was done legitimately.
 
Joshuajayg said:
I hope the aircraft that was sold with potentially unairworthy corrosion gets repaired before it hurts someone. And I hope that ferry permit that was originally applied for was done legitimately.
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I'm curious, how do you obtain a ferry permit that isn't legitimate? Obtaining a ferry permit is easy, but complying with the limitations listed on the ferry permit may not be. I'd bet there are a lot of ferrys made that aren't actually legal.
 
mondtster said:
I'm curious, how do you obtain a ferry permit that isn't legitimate? Obtaining a ferry permit is easy, but complying with the limitations listed on the ferry permit may not be. I'd bet there are a lot of ferrys made that aren't actually legal.
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What I meant by that is that the aircraft may have been unairworthy even for a ferry permit. I am not aware that the FAA would issue a ferry permit for an aircraft with major structural corrosion.
 
SkyDog58 said:
An unairworthy condition is WHY the FAA issues special flight permits.
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There is a limit. If the center spar of an aircraft is found to have a large crack in it, which is determined to potentially fail on the next flight, you cannot get a ferry permit from what I understand. Same with severe corrosion. I have received a ferry permit before but I had to accomplish the equivalent of a 100-hour inspection and comply with all pertinent ADs first.
 
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