Mooney or Cardinal?

BigBadLou said:
Yeah, if you manage to explain to my wife why she needs to get into a transportation device like a contortionist, I'll buy you a beer. :D
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Neither my lovely wife or myself are contortionists and we are 69 and 70 years old. Getting in and out of and riding in the Mooney is no problem at all.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Just curious. Have you ever sat with your passenger in BOTH a 177 AND an M20? I haven’t but I have plenty of time in both M20 C and F as well as a 172. Is a 177 any larger than a 172?
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I decided to buy a Mooney circa 2008, based on stats, owner input, etc, and settled on an E model for the affordability sweet spot. Drove 3.5 hours to look at a 64 with low hours, nice avionics, new paint, etc., and it looked great. I was glad I brought my checkbook, all that was left was the test flight. The airplane flew fine, but I didn't buy it based on the interior room. As a front seat passenger, I had to contort my right shoulder to get it comfortably in the aircraft and had to contort my left shoulder to keep it from interfering with the pilot. The back seat was tiny and what I would consider unusable for anything other than a pancake breakfast run. I decided that I just didn't want to do that to my passengers, either in the front seat, or the back. I am 67", 160 pounds.

A Cardinal is bigger than a 172 and 182. I've owned Cardinals since shortly after that Mooney test flight, so I've sat in 177s with pax lots of times, the largest being my 340 pound buddy, who used to fly with me a lot. I've had four men in that same 177B, ranging from 6'2" to me, the smallest, and everyone was amazed at the abundance of room, front and back. The 340 # guy owned a Glastar and it outperformed my 177B in climb, cruise, etc, but he always referred to my Cardinal as "The Cadillac". Plenty of room and a good ride.

MBDiagMan said:
Your statement is an oranges to apples comparison. A Corvette is a two passenger vehicle while a sedan of any make is four or more.
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My wife and I have owned and driven across the country in everything from an MGB to a Towncar, and we find that as we get older, big, plush, easy wins the day on road (or air) trips.
 
A C, D or E are indeed, for all practical purposes, two passenger planes. The extra 10” of the mid bodies make a significant improvement in that area.

My comment about the Corvette and sedan was to point out that one is a 2 passenger and the other four or more. Some points about my comment clearly are out of context.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I decided to buy a Mooney circa 2008, based on stats, owner input, etc, and settled on an E model for the affordability sweet spot. Drove 3.5 hours to look at a 64 with low hours, nice avionics, new paint, etc., and it looked great. I was glad I brought my checkbook, all that was left was the test flight. The airplane flew fine, but I didn't buy it based on the interior room. As a front seat passenger, I had to contort my right shoulder to get it comfortably in the aircraft and had to contort my left shoulder to keep it from interfering with the pilot. The back seat was tiny and what I would consider unusable for anything other than a pancake breakfast run. I decided that I just didn't want to do that to my passengers, either in the front seat, or the back. I am 67", 160 pounds.

A Cardinal is bigger than a 172 and 182. I've owned Cardinals since shortly after that Mooney test flight, so I've sat in 177s with pax lots of times, the largest being my 340 pound buddy, who used to fly with me a lot. I've had four men in that same 177B, ranging from 6'2" to me, the smallest, and everyone was amazed at the abundance of room, front and back. The 340 # guy owned a Glastar and it outperformed my 177B in climb, cruise, etc, but he always referred to my Cardinal as "The Cadillac". Plenty of room and a good ride.



My wife and I have owned and driven across the country in everything from an MGB to a Towncar, and we find that as we get older, big, plush, easy wins the day on road (or air) trips.
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Thanks for pointing out that a 177 is larger than a 182. I was very surprised to hear that.

Your comment about my response to the corvette comment makes no sense to me. I simply pointed out that comparing a two place car to a sedan is an invalid comparison. They are two different vehicles for two different missions. Comparing a short body Mooney to a 177 is an unfair comparison. A more reasonable comparison would be an F, J or K model Mooney. Then you have a usable four place Mooney.
 
MBDiagMan said:
If he’s near me i will take him for a hamburger and won’t even ask him to buy fuel. Since he chooses not to enter location in his profile I don’t know where he is.
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I'm currently out of country, I may be flying through N.E.Texas in a few weeks and would love to stop by and chat. If I do I'll PM you.
 
Depends on who you are. My diminutive inseam presents a challenge in a world of tall people, but I slide up to the front hole in the Mooney. I've filled the seats with adults without any difficulty, though I wouldn't have done it with full tanks. I will happily do so again should the need arise. I can't ride tall motorcycles (dirt bikes another brethren come to mind) but I fit just fine in my little Japanese sport convertible.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Thanks for pointing out that a 177 is larger than a 182. I was very surprised to hear that.
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Yup. The 177 has the biggest cabin in its class which happens to include 182s as well. I was surprised too. An inch here and there can make a big difference on comfort. Especially cabin width.
However, this roomier cabin comes at a price: heavier airplane and lower cruise speeds.
So it depends on you, your passengers and your missions, whether you care to arrive 5 minutes earlier in a Mooney or arrive later but in style and not cramped.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I decided to buy a Mooney circa 2008, based on stats, owner input, etc, and settled on an E model for the affordability sweet spot. Drove 3.5 hours to look at a 64 with low hours, nice avionics, new paint, etc., and it looked great. I was glad I brought my checkbook, all that was left was the test flight. The airplane flew fine, but I didn't buy it based on the interior room. As a front seat passenger, I had to contort my right shoulder to get it comfortably in the aircraft and had to contort my left shoulder to keep it from interfering with the pilot. The back seat was tiny and what I would consider unusable for anything other than a pancake breakfast run. I decided that I just didn't want to do that to my passengers, either in the front seat, or the back. I am 67", 160 pounds.

A Cardinal is bigger than a 172 and 182. I've owned Cardinals since shortly after that Mooney test flight, so I've sat in 177s with pax lots of times, the largest being my 340 pound buddy, who used to fly with me a lot. I've had four men in that same 177B, ranging from 6'2" to me, the smallest, and everyone was amazed at the abundance of room, front and back. The 340 # guy owned a Glastar and it outperformed my 177B in climb, cruise, etc, but he always referred to my Cardinal as "The Cadillac". Plenty of room and a good ride.



My wife and I have owned and driven across the country in everything from an MGB to a Towncar, and we find that as we get older, big, plush, easy wins the day on road (or air) trips.
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Cardinals do have a nice comfortable cockpit compared to others in that size range. I used to own one. But there is a headroom issue from the carry thru spar. I'm 6' 2". Traditional over the head headsets wouldn't clear it.
 
BigBadLou said:
Yup. The 177 has the biggest cabin in its class which happens to include 182s as well. I was surprised too. An inch here and there can make a big difference on comfort. Especially cabin width.
However, this roomier cabin comes at a price: heavier airplane and lower cruise speeds.
So it depends on you, your passengers and your missions, whether you care to arrive 5 minutes earlier in a Mooney or arrive later but in style and not cramped.
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Five minutes earlier? You must make REALLY short trips.

I’m not an image person, but if I were I am QUITE sure that I don’t give up any “style” when showing up in a Mooney versus a Cessna. Additionally I have NEVER had a passenger claim the they were”cramped in my F. My C? Yeah, that was an issue for an adult in the back, especially if more than one.
 
There are lots of things Cessna singles are, but stylish isn't one of them (though, the 177 and 210 are much better in that area than the 172, 182 or 205/206) :p Especially compared to a Mooney
 
luvflyin said:
Cardinals do have a nice comfortable cockpit compared to others in that size range. I used to own one. But there is a headroom issue from the carry thru spar. I'm 6' 2". Traditional over the head headsets wouldn't clear it.
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The Cardinal is high on my certified plane list but I’m long waisted and at 6’3 it looks like I’d have trouble with the spar carry through, too.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Five minutes earlier? You must make REALLY short trips.

I’m not an image person, but if I were I am QUITE sure that I don’t give up any “style” when showing up in a Mooney versus a Cessna. Additionally I have NEVER had a passenger claim the they were”cramped in my F. My C? Yeah, that was an issue for an adult in the back, especially if more than one.
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I don't disagree with you , especially on style. I'd rather have a sleek Mooney. But you know ... wife and all. :)

If the speed difference is 5 knots around 130kt TAS, the time difference would be 5 minutes on a 2hr flight. And frankly, wife won't last more than that anyway. LOL
I personally have flown my airplane 4+ hours and it was already stretching my bladder comfort.

Again, all these discussions of space and comfort are very subjective. Everybody has different levels of comfort. My wife's bad knees won't let her climb into a low-wing cockpit like behind a 50-cal in a tank. She prefers big barn doors and SUV-like ingress and egress.
I, OTOH, don't mind crawling into the back seat of a T-6 and sitting in the all-metal cockpit on my parachute, getting thrashed around at 5Gs. Wife just rolls her eyes at me. :D

Btw, where in NE TX are you? Tyler? TXARkana? I can stop by one day if you want to exchange rides.
 
Crashnburn said:
The Cardinal is high on my certified plane list but I’m long waisted and at 6’3 it looks like I’d have trouble with the spar carry through, too.
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It may or may not be an issue for you. I'm 6'3", my Dad is 6'5" and we just lean the seat back one notch from fully upright and it isn't a problem for us. A little extra headroom would be nice but its still the most comfortable piston single either one of us has ever been in. All you can do is sit in one and try it for yourself.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Thanks for pointing out that a 177 is larger than a 182. I was very surprised to hear that.
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Practically speaking, they feel about the same to me. I think the backseats in the 177 may have a little more legroom (but the 182 has gobs of it as well). The key thing for me is that in neither airplane do you come close to rubbing shoulders upfront or your head on the side from any curve in.

In the comparable Pipers, Bonanzas, Mooneys, Grummans, etc. you are kissing arms. It all comes with a price though. Speed mainly.

#1 thing I love about the Cardinal is the pilot seat position. You sit well above the panel and it feels like driving a car. The 182, unless I've got a cushion under me, I'm not seeing the cowling out front at 5'9".
 
Once upon a time I had a Grumman Cheetah. Though slightly narrower than even a PA-28 inside, it seemed roomy because of the huge windows. The cabin cross-section remained vertical higher than most low-wing types, giving the Grumman a slightly bug-eyed look on the outside, and a greater feeling of spaciousness inside. Plus the windshield is farther forward, and the top of the panel is quite low, giving the inflight sensation of sitting at a low desk. The airiness and light inside is remarkable.

When it came time to move up to a higher-performance airplane, my wife and I sat in Comanches and Mooneys. She didn't like that they seemed so closed-in and dark; the windows were tank slits compared to the Grumman. And in the older Mooneys the windshield was so close I felt I could create simulated IMC merely by exhaling. The only one that compared to the Grumman in the feeling of spaciousness was the Bonanza, and that's what we wound up with.
 
So after 136 posts this ex-Mooney owner finally has to say something. (No longer own a Mooney. Moved to Cessna.) Getting in or out of a Cardinal is easier than a Mooney I agree. But once in everybody seems to be very comfortable. At least as far as any passengers I have had are concerned.(Making statement for J model and newer). This picture is Sue and me and a couple that we took down to Cedar Key from Atlanta area. Sue and I are about average but both our friend's are on the tall side. No complaints. We also did a trip to New Orleans with them. Everybody fit fine and we had a bunch of luggage to boot, some of which you can see piled by the plane. Sit in both planes. Fly both planes. Only way you'll know.

Flynn's and Cox's at KCDK.JPG
 
Piper Comanche 180
Easy to work on, roomy inside

Or

Step up to a 260
 
Pilawt said:
The only one that compared to the Grumman in the feeling of spaciousness was the Bonanza, and that's what we wound up with.
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So the answer to Mooney or Cardinal?

Get a Bo.

:D
 
Crashnburn said:
The Cardinal is high on my certified plane list but I’m long waisted and at 6’3 it looks like I’d have trouble with the spar carry through, too.
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I solved the problem by getting a headset that didn’t have a thick over the head thing. I got a Sigtronics one that had the thing that held the ear things ‘clamp’ to your ears behind the head. There is just a strap that goes over the head to keep it from falling down. There are those Clarity Aloft types also that don’t make you ‘taller.’ Don’t give up on a Cardinal yet. Find one you can sit in a check it out.
 
I’m 6’4”, where light speeds, and have never had a headroom issue in my Cardinal RG. I do like the seat tilted back a little but since that’s the way I’ve always flown so I don’t know if that’s a factor
 
Cluemeister said:
Get a Bo.
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Well, in all seriousness, I did look at Bonanzas, and again it all came to money. Despite being a large airplane, a Bo is not friendly to tall pilots. The ones from the 1950s are downright hostile. I cannot even jam in with the bench seat - my right knee gets stuck solid against the controls such as mixture. I've flown later models with some gymnastics, but in practical terms I needed something of the 1976 vintage or later. That's a $130k airplane. Even the famously expensive Cardinals are twice cheaper.
 
BigBadLou said:
I don't disagree with you , especially on style. I'd rather have a sleek Mooney. But you know ... wife and all. :)

If the speed difference is 5 knots around 130kt TAS, the time difference would be 5 minutes on a 2hr flight. And frankly, wife won't last more than that anyway. LOL
I personally have flown my airplane 4+ hours and it was already stretching my bladder comfort.

Again, all these discussions of space and comfort are very subjective. Everybody has different levels of comfort. My wife's bad knees won't let her climb into a low-wing cockpit like behind a 50-cal in a tank. She prefers big barn doors and SUV-like ingress and egress.
I, OTOH, don't mind crawling into the back seat of a T-6 and sitting in the all-metal cockpit on my parachute, getting thrashed around at 5Gs. Wife just rolls her eyes at me. :D

Btw, where in NE TX are you? Tyler? TXARkana? I can stop by one day if you want to exchange rides.
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I don’t doubt your calculation, but even a C will true out better than 130 knts. My C trued out at 137 or better. My F with all J modifications trues out at 150 with no trouble. It has the flush riveted leading edge wing of an F with all the aerodynamic modifications of a J. Best of both worlds.
 
MBDiagMan said:
My F with all J modifications trues out at 150 with no trouble...
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I'm surprised it won't do a whole lot better Doc. My 177RG trues at slightly under 150 knots at 75% (about 10.5 gph), and I was under the impression that even the E would do at least that.
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I'm surprised it won't do a whole lot better Doc. My 177RG trues at slightly under 150 knots at 75% (about 10.5 gph), and I was under the impression that even the E would do at least that.
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Here is published specs, I used an actual J
:
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bdf0d7369290bfeef6493ba4941bc9c4.jpg



Tom
 
JohnAJohnson said:
I'm surprised it won't do a whole lot better Doc. My 177RG trues at slightly under 150 knots at 75% (about 10.5 gph), and I was under the impression that even the E would do at least that.
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The E is faster than the F. Short body/lighter with the same engine.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Some of the parts can be. We just had an engine put on one of ours and a piece busted and it took almost a month for us to find a replacement and that was with some good effort on my shop’s part.
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Do you know what piece that was?

Paul
 
Well after a lot of debating and help here I have put a deposit on a M20F, has 201 windshield, Flap gap seals, cowl closure, light weight starter, complete logs, manual gear, etc. Cruises at 75% about 150 Knots, around 10 GPH. Just completed annual but going in for pre-purchase inspection later next week. Very clean inside and out. handles great.
 
Rock Berube said:
Well after a lot of debating and help here I have put a deposit on a M20F, has 201 windshield, Flap gap seals, cowl closure, light weight starter, complete logs, manual gear, etc. Cruises at 75% about 150 Knots, around 10 GPH. Just completed annual but going in for pre-purchase inspection later next week. Very clean inside and out. handles great.
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Well done! I hope the pre-purchase goes well. I think it's a great choice for the mission you outlined. Even if it isn't the obligatory PoA Bo! ;)

What will be home base for it?

Post some pictures please!
 
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Rock Berube said:
Well after a lot of debating and help here I have put a deposit on a M20F, has 201 windshield, Flap gap seals, cowl closure, light weight starter, complete logs, manual gear, etc. Cruises at 75% about 150 Knots, around 10 GPH. Just completed annual but going in for pre-purchase inspection later next week. Very clean inside and out. handles great.
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Remember - the ram air actually does make a difference on the F. I'm very excited for you - sounds like an awesome plane.
 
I like the Mooneys. Only flown M20C up to 201, most of my time was in the M20C. I have flown the Cardinal and Bonanzas. The Bonanza does have more room but if you do not need it go with the Mooney. Cardinal is easer to get in but I do not like the gear. I would go with the newest Mooney with manual gear that you can find.

Edit: I saw you have a deposit on a manual gear one. Great, go flying with someone that has time in one to show the best way to raise and lower the gear fast and without loosing the skin between your thumb and fore finger!
 
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Rock Berube said:
Well after a lot of debating and help here I have put a deposit on a M20F, has 201 windshield, Flap gap seals, cowl closure, light weight starter, complete logs, manual gear, etc. Cruises at 75% about 150 Knots, around 10 GPH. Just completed annual but going in for pre-purchase inspection later next week. Very clean inside and out. handles great.
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Congrats with the decision and pre-buy. Who's doing the inspection for you? If it's not a Mooney Service Center or someone that is really familiar with older Mooney's, at least have them use this checklist as a minimum. LASAR is a highly respected Mooney maintenance shop out in California and STC holder for many pre-J items that almost make anything into a J. I Love the J bar and hydraulic flaps... :)

If you're tracking all that, just ignore it. I didn't go back through the 4 pages to see if they were talked about already... ;)

https://lasar.com/prebuy-check-list

Cheers,
Brian
 
Plano Pilot said:
I like the Mooneys. Only flown M20C up to 201, most of my time was in the M20C. I have flown the Cardinal and Bonanzas. The Bonanza does have more room but if you do not need it go with the Mooney. Cardinal is easer to get in but I do not like the gear. I would go with the newest Mooney with manual gear that you can find.

Edit: I saw you have a deposit on a manual gear one. Great, go flying with someone that has time in one to show the best way to raise and lower the gear fast and without loosing the skin between your thumb and fore finger!
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1st thing on the list right after pre-purchase, have someone who knows the F very well and will be spending a few hours working with me. Want to be comfortable with everything on this plane before I set out on my own.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Hope you can make it by here. PM me and I’ll try to be available.
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I defiantly will thanks Doc


flight2000 said:
Congrats with the decision and pre-buy. Who's doing the inspection for you? If it's not a Mooney Service Center or someone that is really familiar with older Mooney's, at least have them use this checklist as a minimum. LASAR is a highly respected Mooney maintenance shop out in California and STC holder for many pre-J items that almost make anything into a J. I Love the J bar and hydraulic flaps... :)

If you're tracking all that, just ignore it. I didn't go back through the 4 pages to see if they were talked about already... ;)

https://lasar.com/prebuy-check-list

Cheers,
Brian
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The place doing the pre-buy does a lot of work on Mooneys and does know them well, I will be sending them the Pre-Buy checklist from LASAR thanks Brian.

Only big issue I am aware of before the Pre-Buy are the tanks will need to be resealed talked to a couple places who specialize in this and did take this into consideration prior to making the deal. Been reading a lot about Vintage Mooneys (pre-J models) in a couple other places including a great resources on Mooneyspace.com

Again appreciate all the great help from everyone here.

Will post pics and more info soon.
 
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Rock Berube said:
Well after a lot of debating and help here I have put a deposit on a M20F, has 201 windshield, Flap gap seals, cowl closure, light weight starter, complete logs, manual gear, etc. Cruises at 75% about 150 Knots, around 10 GPH. Just completed annual but going in for pre-purchase inspection later next week. Very clean inside and out. handles great.
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Congratulations! I hope you fly the heck out of your Mooney and enjoy every minute of it!
 
Follow up everything on the inspection was great,Used the LASAR pre-Purchase check list also. Realized after 3 AME's owned it and many new parts replaced with better, only issue on the plane is the tanks are starting to seal slowly but I was aware prior to purchase and did take that in consideration on the price. Did my check rides and then some wanted to feel comfortable flying this new Bird and so far I'm very impressed. And thank you again everyone here for the great help.
 

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