Money Changes Everything - Experimental Savings

Daleandee

Daleandee

Final Approach
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Mar 4, 2020
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Dale Andee
I have to admit to being in awe of some of the pilots here and the associated cost they reveal on aircraft purchases, inspections, repairs, medical concerns, hangars, etc.

This post is just to point out that for a few of us that are on the lower end of the economic scale the ability to build our own light sport compliant, experimental, amateur built aircraft & fly it with a Light Sport Certificate with a driver's license medical is what allows us into the arena of flight.

The ability to do our own condition inspections also saves quite a bit of cash that can be spent on things like cheaper avionics, GPS units, ADS-B, auto pilots and such.

The downside is I can't carry but a couple of us, I'm a bit slow at light sport speed (120 knots), and I'm not allowed to fly in the dark or IFR.

I thought to be a great singer and songwriter and make a fortune on You Tube Like a lot of my heroes have done that get mentioned in AOPA magazines (and one of my heroes that didn't) but as you can tell that ain't working ou so well:


I do enjoy my aircraft but perhaps I need to start a go fund me page until my following pics up a bit. :D:D:cool::cool::p
 
Nothing wrong with a LSA if it meets your mission. And completely agree about Exprerimental savings.

I have a LSA and love it. My wife has vowed never to fly with me (or anyone else as she has an extreme fear of heights and barely tolerates commercial flights), and my son is on the fence. I can't envision ever needing to take more than 1 passenger.

120 knots is fine for most local flights. For longer distance cross country, a few more knots may come in handy, but my plane has done that once in the last 3 years, so not a big deal. But with LSA reform being contemplated, there may be a few more knots coming available via a single lever in-flight prop pitch adjustment (we'll have to see)... which takes me to the E-AB or E-LSA thoughts.

Some LSA manufacturers really work well with owners. Some stink at it. My Sportcruiser is a beatiful plane that I love to fly, but the factory stinks at any owner support. Letter of Authorization? It ain't happening for owners of the plane. So I agree that E-LSA or E-AB is a great way to go, a great way to save money, and install not only less expensive avionics, but much BETTER upgrades.

For example: Cruiser Sport Aircraft (CSA) factory only allows the GTX-335 for ADS-B compliance. Not the GTX-345 with ADS-B in and out, and no LOA will be issued for it. By going E-LSA, I told CSA to go pound sand and installed a Garmin GDL-82, hard mounted a Garmin GDL-39 3D, and installed an Garmin Aera 660 to replace my 496, did the job myself and it all cost less than the GTX-335.

Sportcruiser Panel.jpeg
 
rtk11 said:
My Sportcruiser is a beatiful plane that I love to fly, but the factory stinks at any owner support. Letter of Authorization? It ain't happening for owners of the plane. So I agree that E-LSA or E-AB is a great way to go, a great way to save money, and install not only less expensive avionics, but much BETTER upgrades.
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If I were to upgrade the Sport Cruiser or newer Bristell would be a great choice. They really are a beautiful piece of work. Gorgeous panel you have in yours.

I really considered getting my private ticket so I could fly larger planes with more seats but for what I use an airplane for it wouldn't give me much advantage. Most of the pilots I see are usually by themselves and now and again they take a friend. It's been years since I rode with more than two in a plane (not LSA).

Mine has a constant continuous cruise speed right at the light sport limit of 120 knots @ SL. So it's right there with the some of the Cessnas, Pipers, Grumman's, and others that many pilots use for cross country trips. Up higher (8500') it should see something ~140 TAS.

It does have short legs and not a lot of luggage space but I can carry about 40 lbs and for me that's a bunch. The other great part is that I really enjoyed building the airplane.
 
Daleandee said:
...I thought to be a great singer and songwriter and make a fortune on You Tube Like a lot of my heroes have done that get mentioned in AOPA magazines (and one of my heroes that didn't) but as you can tell that ain't working ou so well:...
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do u know any celine dion cover songs?
 
Yup, gofundme for flying expenses is real popular around here, lol. ;)
 
Daleandee said:
...

I do enjoy my aircraft but perhaps I need to start a go fund me page until my following pics up a bit. :D:D:cool::cool::p
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Your stuff is never going to sell unless you add a lot more anger, vulgarity, and ugly distorted aggressive guitar sounds. Don't forget to add more compression, pitch correction, synth-generated backing tracks, loops, and as much artificial processing as possible to make sure that any human element is removed from your product. THEN, maybe.. you'll have a chance.

Yeah, I'm a bitter professional classical and jazz musician snob. I enjoyed the sincerity of your music. Keep up the good work. Start a go-fund me page, and you and I are DONE with each other... my favorite page is gofundyourself.com .
 
Well ...

1) No go fund me page for me as I can't afford it.

2) I have to keep my day job.

And the bonus question:

What do you call a musician without a girlfriend? Homeless!
 
The joke is, "What do you call a DRUMMER without a girlfriend?"

Prefaced by..." What do you call a guy who likes to hang out with musicians?"......" A drummer!"

MUSICIANS do fine on their own.
 
MuseChaser said:
MUSICIANS do fine on their own.
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For the most part that is true but if you listen to my tracks closely enough you can hear my christian piano playing ... "the right hand don't know what the left hand is doing" and my jailhouse guitar work ... "I'm behind a few bars and looking for a key." o_O
 
I can play in the key of E-gad and G-whiz. Beyond that ... there be dragons.
 
Daleandee said:
For the most part that is true but if you listen to my tracks closely enough you can hear my christian piano playing ... "the right hand don't know what the left hand is doing" and my jailhouse guitar work ... "I'm behind a few bars and looking for a key." o_O
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hehehehe... and honest, too. That's why I said I liked your sincerity. You didn't use studio tricks to mask imperfections. I would WAY rather hear that.. unless the imperfections are intolerable, in which case I'd rather hear nothing than studio fake corrections. Your imperfections were far from intolerable, and we all have them. Keep it up!
 
The actual idea I was pointing to for this thread is the enormous difference in costs between the certified world and the experimental world. On other threads we read of large sums of loot being spent to get a medical reinstated, overhauls for GA aircraft engines that cost more than I would need to replace my entire FWF, and one mention of thousand dollar switches because of the brand name manufacturer. The difference in cost of the ADS-B upgrade between certified and experimental aircraft is unreal.

I get that certified items are tested and meet TSO standards, yada, yada, yada, but some of these costs appear to be exorbitant. I also understand the cost of small production verses the economy of scale when the supply demand is quite large. There is also the lawyers chasing every accident and suing anything or anyone remotely associated with any part of an accident. So the cost are real and that isn't going to change soon. A wise man once said, "those that have airplanes can afford them."

But there is also the freedom of experimental aviation that isn't allowed in the certified world. So I wonder why experimental aircraft aren't more popular than they are. We have a thread currently running comparing the Cirrus with a RV10.

I guess if it's in an owner's budget they buy a very nice airplane and when it needs service the mechanic takes care of it. When the bill comes they simply stroke a check for services rendered. My wife treats her car that way. Me ... I still change my own oil and do the regular light maintenance on my vehicles. If it gets too serious it goes to the shop.

Pardon the rambling ...
 
I agree with your rambling. The catch, at least for me, is that the cost of entry into the experimental world is much higher than the cost of entry into certified. I'd have to spend at least twice as much (and probably closer to four times as much) as I did on my '65 Cherokee, and/or at least a year of 40 hour weeks building it. There just aren't any inexpensive experimentals out there that I've seen....most are too new to have depreciated to where I can justify the expense.
 
MuseChaser said:
There just aren't any inexpensive experimentals out there that I've seen....most are too new to have depreciated to where I can justify the expense.
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"Experimentals" or "RV-x"? Lots of T-18s, Tailwinds, etc. that have been around for 30 years. The general problem is a lack of a back seat.
I paid $20K for my experimental, but it is small and slow. Very slow. I had to laugh when the O.P. called 120 knots slow.
 
There are a LOT of inexpensive experimentals out there... most of them aren't 4 place fast goin' places machines, but a lot of us don't care about that.

I just smile when one of the local pilots talk about an annual or repair or panel upgrade that cost them more than my entire airplane.
 
I guess I need to get out more. Would LOVE to be proven wrong. What is there with similar capabilities of my PA28-140 for less than $25k....four seats (but really two plus baggage, and that would be ok...never put four in my plane, and three only thrice), decent basic ifr trainer, 100 knots or so....?
 
MuseChaser said:
I guess I need to get out more. Would LOVE to be proven wrong. What is there with similar capabilities of my PA28-140 for less than $25k....four seats (but really two plus baggage, and that would be ok...never put four in my plane, and three only thrice), decent basic ifr trainer, 100 knots or so....?
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Define "similar capabilities" - Payload? Speed? Fuel consumption? Aerobatic capability? IFR panel?
As mentioned, 4 seats are an issue. Most of the legacy homebuilts are small, that's how you get speed from modest horsepower. Your O-320 will push a Thorp like this at 140ish knots. (A lot depends on attention to details - This T-18 was built by a professional flight test engineer that I know personally - the 170mph with an O-290 is number is as accurate as you will find in any factory POH. (A lot of detail work went into drag reduction. A lot. But, you can do that on your own with an E-AB - you don't have to give your first born child to LoPresti for a few knots. (You may consider that a good thing or a bad thing.)) For some, a tight little tail dragger just doesn't work. For others, fast, economical travel for two who know how to pack light is just the thing.

Loading up for a several days long trip with 2 in a Pittsish clone...
SAM_0383.JPG

But this has an IO-540 - so not exactly "economical" and I don't even want to think about what the owner would want for it if it were to go up for sale...
 
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I started with intention of getting a Sport, but quickly found out there were no LSA rentals available anywhere. If I wanted to fly, I'd have to rent a "standard" (Cessna, Tiger, etc.). So I got my private. Now that I have a private, I can fly wife to places - which I can't do in an LSA. Most experimentals are LSA - weight, speed, and distance limited.

So as previous post pointed out, the only affordable option is renting legacy airplanes that have higher maintenance costs.

Buy a plane? Much cheaper to buy a used legacy plane than get a similar performance experimental.

So.... give me an LSA with the performance (and stability) of a Tiger and have it cost $100,000. And then be kind enough to wake me up from this dream so I can get back to reality and go rent the real Tiger.
 
WDD said:
Buy a plane? Much cheaper to buy a used legacy plane than get a similar performance experimental.
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This is true if your mission requires 4 seats. I know of very few 4 seat owners who fly very often with more than one other person in the plane. Many of them don't fly with more than one other person in the plane ever. If your mission is yourself and one other person, and you're comparing actual performance (fuel burn/speed etc) certified rarely wins. Just glancing at trade-a-plane I see a 3000+ hour Tiger listed for $82K and a 50 hour RV6 listed for $60k. Both are VFR equipped with a simple autopilots but the RV6 will outrun the Tiger on a lower fuel burn.
 
MuseChaser said:
The catch, at least for me, is that the cost of entry into the experimental world is much higher than the cost of entry into certified.
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The light sport plane I bought before the one I have now (we built this one) had a reasonable cost and was built by someone else that did a really great job on it. Still it had things that needed to be repaired/changed before I did the first flight in it. A lot of pilots aren't into building an airplane and as mentioned by others, light sport airplanes only have two seats.

The plane I have now will carry a couple of 190 pounders, full fuel and 30 lbs of baggage and be just under gross. The cockpit (to borrow a real estate term) is cozy at 40" wide at the shoulders. It does have a center stick and I can sit center seat and use the two outside rudder pedals. This is the position to use when you have to keep a close eye on your six for a bogey slipping up on you.

Your Cherokee is a fine airplane and has near the same cruise as I do. They are fun & honest airplanes.
 
What plane do you have that has side by side seating with a center stick between the seats?
 
rtk11 said:
I think @Daleandee has a Sonex. But there are other LSA that have a center stick, like the Jabiru.
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Correct! It can be seen in the beginning of the video I posted at the top of this thread. Here's a pic:

upload_2020-6-6_0-4-2.png
 
By "center stick" he means one shared stick between the seats. Most of the others have a stick for each seat. The T-Craft has yokes.
 
Yes ... one control stick in the center that can be accessed from either seat. I use the outside seat belts from each side and they work well when flying center seat.

The Zenith 601/650 can have the same set up but they have a center console so the pilot doesn't have the option of sitting in the center and using the outside rudder pedals to fly. BTW, the Sonex can be configured with two control sticks if desired.
 
Dana said:
By "center stick" he means one shared stick between the seats. Most of the others have a stick for each seat. The T-Craft has yokes.
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Ah interesting. I was thinking centered between my knees. That said I was actually responding to the production light sport.
 
Does anyone else have the George Harrison song stuck in their head?


I got my mind set on you
I got my mind set on you
I got my mind set on you
I got my mind set on you
But it's gonna take money
A whole lot of spending money
It's gonna take plenty of money
To do it right, child​
 
MuseChaser said:
The joke is, "What do you call a DRUMMER without a girlfriend?"

Prefaced by..." What do you call a guy who likes to hang out with musicians?"......" A drummer!"

MUSICIANS do fine on their own.
Click to expand...

How can you tell if a musician / drummer is driving down the road?

The pizza delivery flag on the roof
 
MuseChaser said:
I agree with your rambling. The catch, at least for me, is that the cost of entry into the experimental world is much higher than the cost of entry into certified. I'd have to spend at least twice as much (and probably closer to four times as much) as I did on my '65 Cherokee, and/or at least a year of 40 hour weeks building it. There just aren't any inexpensive experimentals out there that I've seen....most are too new to have depreciated to where I can justify the expense.
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Cost of entry is higher, but you can pay now or you can pay later. I've probably got $80K parts cost into my -9A--the cost of a decent high-performance luxury sedan--but that includes a brand-new factory Lycoming. In the four years I've owned it, there have been zero issues at annual, each of which costs exactly three days of my own labor. And it's got a glass panel, autopilot and can do 155 KTAS on 8 gph. Decent speed was a factor for me, as I have some friends in Arizona I like to visit occasionally. Resale is quite good on the RVs, so consider that when time comes to sell you'll recoup a high percentage. So then it becomes a question of having the initial capital, and whether you want that capital tied up in an aircraft.

Oh, one squawk. One LED is out on the elevator trim indicator.

As for the building, there are certain parts of the process so frustration-inducing that I've torn hair out by the fistful, but on balance the build was one of the most enjoyable and satisfying things in my life. We do things not because they are easy, but because they are hard, right? Discussions of "how much is your time worth?" aren't even relevant in my case, as most people don't expect to be reimbursed for pursuing hobbies they deeply love. The neighbors are probably glad that the brrrrrrttttt riveting noise is over!

Different strokes and all that, but the Experimental route was right for me.
 
I’m starting a new approach - joining a club. I’ll give it a year and see how it goes. They have 4 planes - 182rg, 182, and two 172’s. Cost per tach hour is cheaper than renting - planes all have Garmin 650’s, etc.
 
I'm currently going back and forth between certified and experimental, and am interested in the cost differential.

My wife and I just want something to get into the air and bomb around the countryside, so am assuming that the experimental wins here.

I am an A&P, and have the itch to build an L4 replica, anyway.... ;)
 
@Drew S - if you want EXP side by side and no acro you're looking for RV-9. I looked hard at Mustang II's... interesting flap design, but I went with Vans because sometimes the market leader is the leader for reason. :)
 
Ravioli said:
@Drew S - if you want EXP side by side and no acro you're looking for RV-9. I looked hard at Mustang II's... interesting flap design, but I went with Vans because sometimes the market leader is the leader for reason. :)
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Didn't mention: looking to stay LSA to avoid medical. Neither wife or I have issues, but you never know
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Lots of options depending on budget $20,000 to $150,000 - where on the scale are you looking?
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As I stated earlier, an L4 replica is what I'm looking at.

I could buy a certified L4 for 30-50k. I could build a replica for 25-30k. That includes the power of patient scrounging and doing most everything myself, from scratch or through horse trading.

I've built a few cubs, so I'm not afraid of the process.

The advantage to buying certified is the retained value. The advantage of experimental is the fun of building and the convenience and cost savings of parts, etc.
 
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