Mogas Transport

Justin Brady said:
Since I can burn Mogas in my IO-470K I'm trying to find the best way to transport it back and forth to the plane.
At the moment I'm stuck between getting a permanent mount tank for the back of the truck or building a little fuel trailer.
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We built this for our MOGAS transport. If interested, PM me and I'll send you the build instructions.

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Flocker said:
We built this for our MOGAS transport. If interested, PM me and I'll send you the build instructions.

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At a glace that looks very nice.
My airport would not allow or would I want that in the same hangar building my plane is located in.
Eventually something will leak, every storage tank, hose, pump, nozzle, vent will leak from age. I maintain many storage tanks for many years now. Gasoline storage tanks should be outside.
 
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Gary Ward said:
At a glace that looks very nice.
My airport would not allow or would I want that in the same hangar building my plane is located in.
Eventually something will leak, every storage tank, hose, pump, nozzle, vent will leak from age. I maintain many storage tanks for many years now. Gasoline storage tanks should outside.
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I don't think there are gasoline rated IBCs that have filling and discharge ports anywhere but from the top, filled from the top and pumped out from the top, almost eliminating any real chance of a big leak, if it did it wouldn't be 90 gallons of fuel on the ground.

I have seen gasoline leaking in a hangar more than once, once was during a cold snap and it leaked out the fuel selector valve on a Cessna, the blue stain on the floor was about 5 feet diameter, the valve was last overhauled 15 years prior. Other common leak points is the gascolator, fuel bladders, tank sump valves, and plain old rubber hose connecting the bladders to the tubes in the fuselage. Of course none of this stuff is required be replaced or overhaled on schedule, just whenever it starts leaking. There's many more places for it to leak on an airplane than the IBC on a trailer, and most of these places are gravity fed with 40, 80 and some have 100s of gallons behind it on an airplane.

Also seen other cessnas routinely being overfilled with gas and it would leak out the vent, especially when the fuel warmed up on a hot day, just freely dripping on the floor, puddle about as big around as a 5 gallon bucket.

I've seen a Cessna 182RG that leaked gas so bad it ruined the paint on the side of fuselage, this guy battled the integral tanks leaking for a couple years he ended up taking it to a huge jet center which had a dedicated fuel tank team that does nothing but prosealing all day, and paid thru the nose to get it fixed.

Jets - just leak, but that's not gasoline related.
 
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Gary Ward said:
Not true, everything I said is fact.
I have been involved in hazmat training for many years and have been through many audits.
There is no personal exemption. You can fly under the radar like I have but there is no exemption. Those tanks are not meant to haul gasoline, I am sure. Neither is mine.
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Yeah, they just nailed a guy locally, who had a huge tank under a tarp in his truck. Quite a fine, I believe.
 
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Gary Ward said:
At a glace that looks very nice.
My airport would not allow or would I want that in the same hangar building my plane is located in.
Eventually something will leak, every storage tank, hose, pump, nozzle, vent will leak from age. I maintain many storage tanks for many years now. Gasoline storage tanks should outside.
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Why would the tank on the trailer be more of a leak risk than the tanks in the plane?
 
Half Fast said:
Why would the tank on the trailer be more of a leak risk than the tanks in the plane?
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Because people like to make issues where there aren't any.

10ga aluminum brand new and pressure tested with no penetrations on the gravity feed side of the tank

vs

60 yr old .032" aluminum tanks with 4 penetrations per tank and 2-4 tanks per plane. Or rubber bladders that have been eroding away for 40 years with the same penetrations. Or fiberglass tip tanks that leak like sieve?


For some reason everyone is just fine with driving and flying around with 50-100 gallons of explosive between their legs or above their heads, but as soon as you put it in a tank it's the end of the world and going to kill everyone in a 4 mile radius.
 
bnt83 said:
I don't think there are gasoline rated IBCs that have filling and discharge ports anywhere but from the top, filled from the top and pumped out from the top, almost eliminating any real chance of a big leak, if it did it wouldn't be 90 gallons of fuel on the ground.

The only two times I have ever seen gasoline leaking in a hangar was during a cold snap and it leaked out the fuel selector valve on a Cessna, the blue stain on the floor was about 5 feet diameter, the valve was last overhauled 15 years prior. Other common leak points is the gascolator, fuel bladders, tank sump valves, and plain old rubber hose connecting the bladders to the tubes in the fuselage. Of course none of this stuff is required be replaced or overhaled on schedule, just whenever it starts leaking. There's many more places for it to leak on an airplane than the IBC on a trailer, and most of these places are gravity fed with 40, 80 and some have 100s of gallons behind it on an airplane.

I've seen a Cessna 182RG that leaked gas so bad it ruined the paint on the side of fuselage, this guy battled the integral tanks leaking for a couple years he ended up taking it to a huge jet center which had a dedicated fuel tank team that does nothing but prosealing all day, and paid thru the nose to get it fixed.

Jets - just leak, but that's not gasoline related.
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Because that tank was built with the SP14227 authorization the pump is mounted below the top of the tank so it can meet the over head requirement of SP14227. If you fill that tank up within a few inches of the top the pump is submerged in gas making it much more prone to leaking. IMO a dumb idea on the tank manufacture to meet SP14227 requirement. And is only good for 2.5 years SP14227. WHat kind of deal is that? Dumb idea to put the pump fitting below the level of gas. If you don't fill it all the way then you paid for a 110 gal tank but can only use 80 gals of it.
No one is going to do any thing after owning it for 2.5 years as far as re inspection..

IMO they only got that temporary exemption to be able to sell more tanks.
 
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Justin Brady said:
Because people like to make issues where there aren't any.

10ga aluminum brand new and pressure tested with no penetrations on the gravity feed side of the tank

vs

60 yr old .032" aluminum tanks with 4 penetrations per tank and 2-4 tanks per plane. Or rubber bladders that have been eroding away for 40 years with the same penetrations. Or fiberglass tip tanks that leak like sieve?


For some reason everyone is just fine with driving and flying around with 50-100 gallons of explosive between their legs or above their heads, but as soon as you put it in a tank it's the end of the world and going to kill everyone in a 4 mile radius.
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There is no logic in it. My Cessna 177 has hundreds of penetrations in the tanks, and the sealant was applied in 1967. There is no pressure test requirements. Pretty much every piper Cherokee and Mooney is built the same way as is later 172, 182, and 210s.
 
Gary Ward said:
For the same reason the local fire marshal does not allow us to store 5 gal cans of gas in our hangars.
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At least new 5 gallon cans aren't feely vented to the atmosphere like an airplane.
 
Gary Ward said:
For the same reason the local fire marshal does not allow us to store 5 gal cans of gas in our hangars.
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It's a little easier to knock over/ run over/poke a hole in that 5 gallon gas can than it is to knock over a 600 lb tank :D
 
Our airplanes (hopefully) see enough use that we'll spot leaks before they get bad. More importantly our airplanes don't drive on the highways. We don't endanger anyone but our own stupid cheap bastard selves.

Only places around here that sell gas without booze in it is marinas.
 
Gary Ward said:
Not true, everything I said is fact.
I have been involved in hazmat training for many years and have been through many audits.
There is no personal exemption. You can fly under the radar like I have but there is no exemption. Those tanks are not meant to haul gasoline, I am sure. Neither is mine.
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My 95 gallon truck mounted transfer tank is permitted ‘flammable’, not combustible. Permit placards is welded to the tank. Product literature specifically mentions avgas. But it was a special order From the manufacture. None of the local tractor supplies stores would sell flammable permitted tanks.
 
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Half Fast said:
Why would the tank on the trailer be more of a leak risk than the tanks in the plane?
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You are trying to apply rational logic to a irrational rule. My Airport has the exact same rule and I made the exact same argument and got exactly nowhere. That is why I put a transfer tank for Av gas in the back of my truck. The airport manager looked at it a couple times, sniffed around it but realize there’s nothing he could do about it. I put several thousand gallons through the tank. I rarely buy avgas from the airport because it’s always $2 higher.
 
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steingar said:
Our airplanes (hopefully) see enough use that we'll spot leaks before they get bad. More importantly our airplanes don't drive on the highways. We don't endanger anyone but our own stupid cheap bastard selves.

Only places around here that sell gas without booze in it is marinas.
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Yeah, we only fly thousands of feet over peoples homes, businesses and schools. :rolleyes:
 
I understand everyone's logic and I don't disagree. Just trying to point out things that may not have been thought about and trying to help. Not trying be Mr negative.
I bet there are plenty of storage tanks in thousands of hangars private and rented with no issues.
The plane and fuel tanks have to be in the hangars. Additional gas storage does not need to be. So why allow the additional risks with separate gas storage is what I think the fire marshals are looking at and insurance company's.
Have a great day.
 
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Gary Ward said:
Because that tank was built with the SP14227 authorization the pump is mounted below the top of the tank so it can meet the over head requirement of SP14227. If you fill that tank up within a few inches of the top the pump is submerged in gas making it much more prone to leaking. IMO a dumb idea on the tank manufacture to meet SP14227 requirement. And is only good for 2.5 years SP14227. WHat kind of deal is that? Dumb idea to put the tank fitting below the level of gas. If you don't fill it all the way then you paid for a 110 gal tank but can only use 80 gals of it.
No one is going to do any thing after owning it for 2.5 years as far as re inspection..

IMO they only got that temporary exemption to be able to sell more tanks.
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I would not be surprised if these tanks were in use on federal, state, and local government owned equipment, nor would I be surprised if they don't pressure test them or keep a record of it. The Bureau of Land Management Fuel Transport 2022 checklist even includes these products.
https://www.nifc.gov/standards/blm-preparedness-review see checklist #20

https://www.nifc.gov/sites/default/...reviews/BLM_Checklists/20_Fuel_Transport.docx
 
Gary Ward said:
I understand everyone's logic and I don't disagree. Just trying to point out things that may not have been thought about and trying to help. Not trying be Mr negative.
I bet there are plenty of storage tanks in thousands of hangars private and rented with no issues.
The plane and fuel tanks have to be in the hangars. Addition gas storage does not need to be. So why allow the additional risks with separate gas storage is what I think the fire marshals are looking at and insurance company's.
Have a great day.
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You're right on this of course, I think we're just venting frustration at the stupid rules we sometimes all have to abide by.
 
Legal or not I just had a small utility trailer that I had several 55 gallon drums mounted to. It's a hassle and probably not worth it if you don't fly a lot or have a gas guzzler airplane. I was time building in a 150 flying an average of 20+ hours a week. The savings was substantial enough to deal with the hassle.
 
steingar said:
Yeah, thousands of feet. Not a foot away.
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You're less than a foot away when you lose a cotter pin on an aileron and dive bomb it into a house, or stall spin at the end of the runway into someone's roof, or emergency land on a highway with cars.
Obviously worst case scenarios here, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're only endangering yourself in an airplane. You're taking a calculated risk for both yourself and those on the ground.
 
The obvious solution to this conundrum is there should be mandatory yearly pressure testing of all aircraft tankso_O
 
Justin Brady said:
You're less than a foot away when you lose a cotter pin on an aileron and dive bomb it into a house, or stall spin at the end of the runway into someone's roof, or emergency land on a highway with cars.
Obviously worst case scenarios here, but don't delude yourself into thinking you're only endangering yourself in an airplane. You're taking a calculated risk for both yourself and those on the ground.
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Let's try this again children. EVERY TIME you drive your cage you are within feet if not inches of other vehicles which contain wimmin and kiddies. EVERY TIME. Yes, if the chips go down in your aircraft you could be inches from them as well. I promise if the chips went down on anything even approaching a regular basis and we found ourselves endangering innocents we'd not be flying anything bigger than a kite.
 
steingar said:
Let's try this again children. EVERY TIME you drive your cage you are within feet if not inches of other vehicles which contain wimmin and kiddies. EVERY TIME. Yes, if the chips go down in your aircraft you could be inches from them as well. I promise if the chips went down on anything even approaching a regular basis and we found ourselves endangering innocents we'd not be flying anything bigger than a kite.
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Children??? Really think something of yourself don’t you. Good thing you are college professor.
 
Justin Brady said:
You're right on this of course, I think we're just venting frustration at the stupid rules we sometimes all have to abide by.
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I get your frustration. A trailer like posted above looks sensible enough, but if the law of the land is NFPA 407, unfortunately it probably doesn't pass. While NFPA does not itself apply to self fueling, many jurisdictions have used it as the standard versus creating their own. What airports are trying to avoid is this level of stupid, which does happen. Its easier to apply an industry standard, then create your own, even if overkill.gas-bags.jpg
 
Such strong opinions from guys who don’t have tanks! After 25 years of carrying a 100 gallon tank in my pickups I was happy to sell the tank. My hangar home has a 500 gallon tank in an attached fuel shed. No more sloshing fuel every time I stop. Carrying a tank made me change from 1/2 ton to 3/4 ton trucks. Carrying the weight 24-7-365 does wear out the rear springs. That’s not imagined, it’s a pirep.
 
And with all the 50-year-old leaky airplane gas tanks in hangars all over the country, just how often do we have a hangar fire as a result? I don't recall reading about any, but I haven't gone looking for stories, either.
 
Half Fast said:
And with all the 50-year-old leaky airplane gas tanks in hangars all over the country, just how often do we have a hangar fire as a result? I don't recall reading about any, but I haven't gone looking for stories, either.
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Hangar fires do occur from time to time. I know of two people who have lost aircraft in two separate fires in the last 5 years. One of them was likely at least partially fuel related but the other was related to the fabric catching on fire.
 
Half Fast said:
You mean because he's an idiot?
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Every airport I’ve been based at has a ban on fuel storage in a city owned hangar when it isn’t being stored in an aircraft’s fuel tank. So it isn’t just Gary’s fire marshal that is being picky.
 
A friend let another friend do an annual in his hangar. A wrench fell out of his hand, arced on the battery, started that plane on fire, and almost took out 4 helicopters, another plane, and the hangar home. Stuff happens. Be careful in there.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Children??? Really think something of yourself don’t you. Good thing you are college professor.
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No just trying to explain something that would easily make sense to a four-year-old, but I have to spell out anyway. I think very little of myself, but even less of someone to whom I have to explain that particular concept.
 
My setup

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Morgan3820 said:
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Very nice tank, I would love to have a aluminum tank. You are using the perfect fill/vent cap, the best in my opinion.
Although I like my tank level with the top of my bed rails. The fuel pump is hi volume so it is pretty visible but the tank is down low and does not restrict visibility out the back window
I can't believe that label on that tank.
I have handled, stored, used, burnt, and still sell lots of methanol. It is used in car washes during the winter, we make windshield washer fluid, it is used in propane, and for hi performance racing engines are just a few uses.
It is very corrosive and the last material you want to store it in is aluminum.
I raced a top alcohol dragster on straight methanol. We drained the aluminum fuel tank and lines after every day of racing to preserve our fuel tank and fuel lines. We used high quality hard anodized AN fuel line fittings and they still corroded in 2 seasons of racing. I replaced every fuel line every 2 seasons because the aluminum fittings corrode and pollute the fuel system causing me to burn pistons, cly heads and engine block decks from going lean at 60 psi boost.
So that is bad advise to suggest to consumers that they could store methanol in a aluminum tank. WTH!
 
I built a tank a couple years ago for our v nose enclosed trailer we use for hauling the UTV out west for elk hunting. I hate having gas cans when I'm trying to eliminate how much I smell. We tent it for 2 weeks. And have a portable tankless on demand water heater. So made a divided tank with baffles for 65 gallons of water and 35 gallons of gas. Fill both from the top. And each have their own 12 v pump that comes out the bottom of the trailer. Both sides of the tank were pressure tested. I'll fill the gas and water up at the last station before we enter the national forest.

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Racerx said:
I built a tank a couple years ago for our v nose enclosed trailer we use for hauling the UTV out west for elk hunting. I hate having gas cans when I'm trying to eliminate how much I smell. We tent it for 2 weeks. And have a portable tankless on demand water heater. So made a divided tank with baffles for 65 gallons of water and 35 gallons of gas. Fill both from the top. And each have their own 12 v pump that comes out the bottom of the trailer. Both sides of the tank were pressure tested. I'll fill the gas and water up at the last station before we enter the national forest.

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Very trick! Love custom trailers like that. Nice job building your own tanks. wow
 
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