Mogas Fuel Truck?

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

Final Approach
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We now have an airplane that runs best on unleaded 91 octane auto gas (Flight Design CTLS with Rotax engine). Our C-172 is capable of burning auto gas, and only needs the STC to use it. We live on a grass field where the dominant species is Piper Cub and clones or biplanes that all prefer auto gas. We are surrounded by airports with small aircraft that prefer auto gas.

However, no airport in the area sells it. We end up driving to the local gas station with a couple of 5 gallon jugs to fill up whenever we want to fly, which pretty much limits our range.

So, I was thinking about the possibility of putting in a gas tank and encouraging others to buy some gas. Then thought, what with the EPA requirements and putting in self-serve card reader, the startup cost would be prohibitive. Then I thought about the possibility of just getting a fuel truck and finding a way to get it filled up whenever it was needed. It would have all the EPA stuff, a built-in pump. We could use a cell-phone with cube to accept credit cards. Of course, we have absolutely no experience in selling gasoline.

OK, I'm ready. Shoot down the idea.
 
AuntPeggy said:
We now have an airplane that runs best on unleaded 91 octane auto gas (Flight Design CTLS with Rotax engine). Our C-172 is capable of burning auto gas, and only needs the STC to use it. We live on a grass field where the dominant species is Piper Cub and clones or biplanes that all prefer auto gas. We are surrounded by airports with small aircraft that prefer auto gas.

However, no airport in the area sells it. We end up driving to the local gas station with a couple of 5 gallon jugs to fill up whenever we want to fly, which pretty much limits our range.

So, I was thinking about the possibility of putting in a gas tank and encouraging others to buy some gas. Then thought, what with the EPA requirements and putting in self-serve card reader, the startup cost would be prohibitive. Then I thought about the possibility of just getting a fuel truck and finding a way to get it filled up whenever it was needed. It would have all the EPA stuff, a built-in pump. We could use a cell-phone with cube to accept credit cards. Of course, we have absolutely no experience in selling gasoline.

OK, I'm ready. Shoot down the idea.
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Much better off buying a truck you can take to the rack, one with a meter and all. You can buy them cheap.
 
One word that is going to kill the idea. Insurance.

Keith
 
what are the yearly EPA fees....and inspections?....and insurance if someone gets a bad load of fuel?

No thanks.....I'll tanker my own. :D

Buy your own beater pickup....and put a 100 gal tank in the back for yourself.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
what are the yearly EPA fees....and inspections?....and insurance if someone gets a bad load of fuel?

No thanks.....I'll tanker my own. :D

Buy your own beater pickup....and put a 100 gal tank in the back for yourself.
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All we paid was our annual tag fee and liability insurance on the truck, it was a few hundred dollars a year split between the 6 of us that owned the truck. It was a $1600 truck that saved us 50¢ a gallon, (almost 30% at the time) off the lowest price in the region, and we had to fly to Corona to get it, saved us $1 a gallon off the LGB low price, and that was 100LL.
 
Rather than becoming a gas station. Form a co op where everyone shares the risk.
 
frfly172 said:
Rather than becoming a gas station. Form a co op where everyone shares the risk.
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That's what my friends and I did, although it was just a 'handshake' deal. We tracked our fuel use and kicked in our share at the refill.
 
I wouldn't want the personal liability exposure with selling to others. The co-op approach or just doing your own with a pick-up sounds much better.

As for cost, I bought a 1500 gallon truck about 4 or 5 years ago at a sealed bid auction for about $2K. I put $6K into getting it back into serviceable condition for serving customers on a public airport ramp. It could have been done for less for other applications. We can't use hoses that are over ten years old. We have to replace the filters every year. The meters have to be calibrated yearly. We might have skipped the six new tires. etc. The biggest aggravation with it has been the Victualic pipe joints with 50 year old rubber gaskets. They are hard, don't like temperature drops and then like to leak. In the meantime, nearly all of the gaskets have been replaced.
 
Geico has a pretty cool setup that he likes to show off. Just get one like he has for yourself. No need to get into all the legal, regulatory and insurance hassles of a shared tank. Pretty soon your neighbors will be asking where you got it and you can sell them yours for a profit and go get another one. Or just buy another one and sell it at a profit.
 
JOhnH said:
Geico has a pretty cool setup that he likes to show off. Just get one like he has for yourself. No need to get into all the legal, regulatory and insurance hassles of a shared tank. Pretty soon your neighbors will be asking where you got it and you can sell them yours for a profit and go get another one. Or just buy another one and sell it at a profit.
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I have a similar set up using a 55 gallon drum...... I LOVE my savings.....
 
how much fuel does a CT-whatever use ? This is how I fuel the lycoming 540 in the pawnee. You can put a 50 gal tank in just about any vehicle without a roof.

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Over the road hauling of fuels is limited in almost every state. I doubt you'd get busted for 200 gallons or something, but if you are out there hauling around 1500 gallons of mogas in an old truck without a CDL plus special fuels permit you are gonna face a big fat fine. If the highway patrol don't get you the revenue guys might.

Plenty of risk for big load fuel hauling. Really there's no simple solution unless you have an exiting tank on the field that's had some kind of fuel in it already. In that case it'll be grandfathered exempt from the new fuels safety rules in your state, and you can have the pure mogas delivered.
 
I suspect that complying with all the state and federal laws to make it legal would be the biggest hassle.

You'd need a CDL with Haz-Mat and Tank endorsements, which means three or four written tests (General, Tank, Haz-Mat, and probably Air Brakes if the truck is so equipped) plus a road test in a truck of that weight class; fingerprinting and TSA check initially and every five years for the Haz-Mat endorsement; a DOT physical; commercial insurance on the truck with Haz-Mat and Tank riders; and (probably) a permit every time you take the truck on the road to get it filled. You'd also need the authorizations to collect the various taxes on the fuel itself.

So yeah, regulations-wise, it would be a hassle.

On a more practical level, you'd also have to turn over enough in fuel to prevent it from going stale in the tank. Mogas isn't as stable as avgas. And you'd be assuming a huge potential risk of the gas being blamed for an accident or for damage to an aircraft. I suppose there's insurance for that, but I also suppose it might be expensive enough to make it cost-prohibitive. And then, of course, you'd need permission from the airport, who probably would want a piece of whatever action is left after the rest of the 'crats and insurance companies are done extracting their respective pounds of flesh.

So what it comes down to in my opinion is that it's probably do-able if you don't mind wading through the paperwork and bureaucracy; but probably it wouldn't be feasible because of all the regulatory, practical, and liability considerations.

Rich
 
Unless, of course, you just bought the truck, parked it at the airport, and had another truck deliver the fuel to it. That would at least eliminate the driving-related licenses and permits.

Rich
 
Your CT will only burn ~5gal/hr and if its mogas it needs to be fresh. Is there a winter and summer blend in your state?

I have a 50gal tank on a little trailer and I seldom fill it in an effort to keep my gas fresh.
 
Henning said:
All we paid was our annual tag fee and liability insurance on the truck, it was a few hundred dollars a year split between the 6 of us that owned the truck. It was a $1600 truck that saved us 50¢ a gallon, (almost 30% at the time) off the lowest price in the region, and we had to fly to Corona to get it, saved us $1 a gallon off the LGB low price, and that was 100LL.
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And let me guess, when you passed State Troopers or the DOT they just waved and gave you a "thumbs up"..............:rolleyes2:

I owned a 2500 gallon Ford F550 fuel truck. The requirements to drive it on the road were quite complex, and the insurance was very expensive.
 
docmirror said:
Over the road hauling of fuels is limited in almost every state. I doubt you'd get busted for 200 gallons or something, but if you are out there hauling around 1500 gallons of mogas in an old truck without a CDL plus special fuels permit you are gonna face a big fat fine.
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The maximum in most states is 119 gallons. Even in Missouri, where the authorities turn a blind eye to many violations, they'll nail your ass if you get caught hauling over. I had a buddy get caught once with two full 100 gallon tanks in the bed of his truck...he didn't make it through it unscathed.

I doubt it would ever be a primary offense, so if you don't get pulled over doing something else stupid here, then you're probably okay. But getting pulled over speeding and then being caught hauling 200 gallons of fuel might make for a very expensive day.
 
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Where I was based for a while, we had an above-ground tank that wasn't being used, and I begged the mgr to load out some mogas and give it a try. He inherited the airport from his departed dad, and he had a Beech B19 which wasn't rated for mogas, so he didn't thing it was worth it. I told him I would be glad to pay for the first load of 500 gallons delivered if he would just get the filters changed, and have the hoses checked. He balked. I'm guessing it would have made him some decent money, but he just won't bother.
 
RotorAndWing said:
And let me guess, when you passed State Troopers or the DOT they just waved and gave you a "thumbs up"..............:rolleyes2:

I owned a 2500 gallon Ford F550 fuel truck. The requirements to drive it on the road were quite complex, and the insurance was very expensive.
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Private carriage, no worries, plus the truck was legal spec, it was an old fuel truck and under CDL weight, built for the purpose.
 
at our home in IL our neighbor has an old fuel truck. A snowmobile club he belongs to uses it to store ethanol-free fuel. They used to drive it to the depot to fill it but the insurance got too onerous, then they thought they'd pull it with a tractor and call it farm machinery. I don't know why it took so long to make a phone call and ask about delivery. Turns out delivering 1000gal is basically free. Now the truck is static storage. We fill our lawnmower there.
 
RotorAndWing said:
:rolleyes2:
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While you are wasting your time rolling your eyes you need to understand that whether or not it is legal depends entirely on state and local law. It may well have been entirely legal at the time.

For example, my company can use their own pickup and trailer to haul loads in one state but cannot cross a state line and be legal. Just the way it is.
 
Honeck...Paging Mr. Honeck.

Jay built two autofuel transporters out of light duty pickups.
 
Clark1961 said:
While you are wasting your time rolling your eyes you need to understand that whether or not it is legal depends entirely on state and local law. It may well have been entirely legal at the time.

For example, my company can use their own pickup and trailer to haul loads in one state but cannot cross a state line and be legal. Just the way it is.
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It's a henning story.....:rolleyes2:

:rofl:
 
Wouldn't you need to use ethenol free fuel for the various MoGas STCs? Every gas station within 50 miles of here is 10% ethanol.
 
Peggy, I wouldn't do a major operation just because of the complexities listed from a legal perspective. If you're comfortable with a handshake deal and the risks associated, then go right ahead. Otherwise, just get a tank that you can put in a pickup/trailer/whatever that'll hold 40 gallons or so and use a personal setup.
 
JHW said:
how much fuel does a CT-whatever use ? This is how I fuel the lycoming 540 in the pawnee. You can put a 50 gal tank in just about any vehicle without a roof.
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Nice truck, bonus points if it's a diesel.
 
Build your own.

fuel_tank.JPG


Cost about $850 to build and equip, trailer bought new, tank was free. Had to do a little welding on it, but it worked out well. I have pumped well over 12,000 gallons of fuel through it. Saving a couple of bucks a gallon.
 
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Pedals2Paddles said:
Wouldn't you need to use ethenol free fuel for the various MoGas STCs? Every gas station within 50 miles of here is 10% ethanol.
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A fried of mine who seems to know about these things once told me that the ethanol is added at the pump. It's been a while since he explained this to me, but he told me that there are only two grades of gasoline delivered to the station, both ethanol-free. I believe he said one was 86 octane, and the other 91. They are mixed in various proportions, and ethanol added, at the pump, to produce the various octane grades that are pumped through the hose.

Even the ethanol-free 91 is typically blended with a small amount of 86, plus 10 percent ethanol, to bring it back up to 91. More ethanol is added, without any added 86, to bring it up to 93, if that's an available option. But the 91 can also be pumped directly, without blending, as ethanol-free 91, says he. The problem is that unless there's a separate pump and hose for the ethanol-free, there will still be some ethanol-laced fuel in the pump and hose system unless the customer before you also pumped ethanol-free 91. So if having ethanol-free fuel is vital to you, you need to pump some fuel into a container before you can be sure that what's coming through the hose is truly ethanol-free.

I've noticed that a few of the stations around here that offer ethanol-free 91 -- which is the only ethanol-free grade available anywhere I happen to know of -- don't offer an ethanol-blended 91 grade. If you want 91, you have to buy it ethanol-free. I suppose that's because the pumps can only handle so many different blends. But it does lead me to believe that my friend's explanation is correct.

Rich
 
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Pedals2Paddles said:
Wouldn't you need to use ethenol free fuel for the various MoGas STCs? Every gas station within 50 miles of here is 10% ethanol.
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That ethanol is added after the rack, you can get a load of non-road gas without ethanol, no problem.
 
RJM62 said:
A fried of mine who seems to know about these things once told me that the ethanol is added at the pump.
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I've been told that it is blended at the rack when the tank truck is filled. Also, supposedly that is when the brand (Mobil, Shell) related additive package is added.
 
Bill Jennings said:
I've been told that it is blended at the rack when the tank truck is filled. Also, supposedly that is when the brand (Mobil, Shell) related additive package is added.
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Who knows. Maybe it's different in different states. My buddy is a retired automotive engineer, so it's also possible his information is out of date.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
Who knows. Maybe it's different in different states. My buddy is a retired automotive engineer, so it's also possible his information is out of date.

Rich
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I don't think there have been "blender pumps" since Sunoco had them back in the 70's-early 80's..:dunno: .... YMMV..
 
Ethanol cannot be transported through existing pipelines as it is corrosive to the pipes. Special pipelines have to be built to carry it, but the preferred method is still trucking.
 
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Henning said:
That ethanol is added after the rack, you can get a load of non-road gas without ethanol, no problem.
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Go to the local terminal here as an individual and try to buy gas. You'll get laughed back out onto the highway.

N801BH said:
I don't think there have been "blender pumps" since Sunoco had them back in the 70's-early 80's..:dunno: .... YMMV..
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They're referring to the terminal, not the station.

Edit: Never mind, I just saw Rich's post. I think he's confusing blender pumps for mid grade with blender pumps for ethanol. The gas already has ethanol in it when it arrives at the station. But the station typically has only two tanks, regular and premium. If you pump midgrade then you're getting 50% from each tank. At least that's typical here, in NY it might be completely different.
 
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timwinters said:
Edit: Never mind, I just saw Rich's post. I think he's confusing blender pumps for mid grade with blender pumps for ethanol. The gas already has ethanol in it when it arrives at the station. But the station typically has only two tanks, regular and premium. If you pump midgrade then you're getting 50% from each tank. At least that's typical here, in NY it might be completely different.
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I really don't know. It's what I was told by someone who seems to understand this sort of thing. But again, his information could be out of date. He's been retired for a while.

What I do know is that every station I know of around here that sells ethanol-free gas only sells it in 91 octane. The most recent company to offer it is Mirabito, which is a regional company with quite a few stations up here, and they sell only the 91 as ethanol-free. I don't know whether this is because they figure that people who want ethanol-free want it in the 91, or because the 91 is ethanol-free to begin with. Maybe it depends on the vendor.

Rich
 
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