MOGAS and the free overhaul

Chesterspal

Chesterspal

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Chesterspal
Read an interesting article this morning about how using MOGAS in your plane, assuming it will run on it, can save you enough $$ to pay for your next overhaul. It's also better for the engine in that it has no lead to foul up the plugs. Also, better for the environment, again, because no lead is being burned.

I checked on line and it appears there are enough MOGAS airports to let you travel from one coast to the other. The closest to me is about 60 NM but in the general direction I'm likely to be flying around anyway. There are others around my area, as well.

Just as an aside, I make my own ethanol-free MOGAS myself for my motorcycles to keep their carbs from fouling up and the hoses and gaskets from rotting.

Suppose I can gear up the process enough to make some for my plane :D
 
Chesterspal said:
Read an interesting article this morning about how using MOGAS in your plane, assuming it will run on it, can save you enough $$ to pay for your next overhaul. It's also better for the engine in that it has no lead to foul up the plugs. Also, better for the environment, again, because no lead is being burned.

I checked on line and it appears there are enough MOGAS airports to let you travel from one coast to the other. The closest to me is about 60 NM but in the general direction I'm likely to be flying around anyway. There are others around my area, as well.

Just as an aside, I make my own ethanol-free MOGAS myself for my motorcycles to keep their carbs from fouling up and the hoses and gaskets from rotting.

Suppose I can gear up the process enough to make some for my plane :D
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Where I am 87 octane E0 is becoming pretty common. Not all that high of a percentage of stations carry it but enough do to where if you look for it you'll find it.

If you need 90 octane E0 you'll have to go to a marina.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
How do you make your own? Water wash it?
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You add distilled water, agitate like crazy, wait overnight, drain off the water and E10. You lose around 3 points of octane by removing the ethanol so you start with 91 premium to get down to around 88. If 80 is what these older planes will run on you can probably use regular gas and still be above that.

Once the ethanol is removed the gas will last forever. I have some I made years ago that's still perfect. Has this sweet smell to it, too.

Where I live there is no non-E10 gas sold. Maybe at the marina but some frown on selling gas not for your boat.
 
I used MOGAS for a while but my mechanic said it caused a leak in my tanks. We managed to seal it up but with the cost so close between MOGAS and the cheapest AVGAS around, I would rather fly out and get some AVGAS then hassle with hauling 5-gal cans, testing the gas, and using the siphon to fill the high wing tanks. Actually, that's what I'm going to do this morning-fly out to fill the tanks for a trip later this week.
 
Chesterspal said:
You add distilled water, agitate like crazy, wait overnight, drain off the water and E10. You lose around 3 points of octane by removing the ethanol so you start with 91 premium to get down to around 88. If 80 is what these older planes will run on you can probably use regular gas and still be above that.

Once the ethanol is removed the gas will last forever. I have some I made years ago that's still perfect. Has this sweet smell to it, too.

Where I live there is no non-E10 gas sold. Maybe at the marina but some frown on selling gas not for your boat.
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And you can distill the water/ethanol mix ... and drink it!
 
Chesterspal said:
If 80 is what these older planes will run on you can probably use regular gas and still be above that.
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There are different ways of calculating octane - auto fuel is an average of two methods, aircraft fuel is rated differently 80 octane is actually 80/87 (100 LL is 100/130).
I think it's clear that you haven't tested the octane number of your un-ethanolled fuel.

Then you have the problem that in the stupidly over-regulated world of type certificated aircraft, home brew fuel just isn't going to cut it - whether it works or not.
 
Chesterspal said:
You add distilled water, agitate like crazy, wait overnight, drain off the water and E10. You lose around 3 points of octane by removing the ethanol so you start with 91 premium to get down to around 88. If 80 is what these older planes will run on you can probably use regular gas and still be above that.
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80 avgas is not equivalent to 80 octane mogas, the octane is calculated differently.
 
dmspilot said:
80 avgas is not equivalent to 80 octane mogas, the octane is calculated differently.
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Road fuel octane is calculated by averaging the results of two tests: Research Octane Method (RON) and Motor Octane Number (MON), the first one being biased toward high load, the other toward high speed operation. Motor octane tests are also more complex in terms of testing. I believe that AvGas is tested more or less like the MON test, and the number is the straight result of the test.
 
The notion of my making 30 gallons of MOGAS was just a joke.

My point has to do with the fact that, if my plane will run find on 80 MOGAS and I can get it cheaper than AVGAS, is there any reason not to use it and save the $$ for my overhaul.

So far, I have not heard any save for one guy who claims it ate his fuel tank.
 
If the plane sits for any length of time (which can happen for a variety of reasons) the car gas is not as stable as avgas.
 
I doubt that clean non eth fuel would eat a fuel tank. The only real benefit I see is the smell and fact that it evaporates without leaving an odor. Given the chance I would run it every time as money is money. In fact, it's one of the requirements I look for in my next airplane.
 
Chesterspal said:
assuming it will run on it, can save you enough $$ to pay for your next overhaul.
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Just as a note, assuming you are talking about a certified aircraft be sure to add the cost of the STC to use mogas if your aircraft doesn't already have one.
 
cgrab said:
I used MOGAS for a while but my mechanic said it caused a leak in my tanks. We managed to seal it up but with the cost so close between MOGAS and the cheapest AVGAS around, I would rather fly out and get some AVGAS then hassle with hauling 5-gal cans, testing the gas, and using the siphon to fill the high wing tanks. Actually, that's what I'm going to do this morning-fly out to fill the tanks for a trip later this week.
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I'd love to see how he substantiated that one unless you were running something ethanol-laced.
 
We used to fly here a lot (Netherlands) on MOGAS but the airport removed it as it got replaced by UL91 (+-$4 more per gallon). There is a STC for MOGAS operation on the Cessna 172 and Piper Warriors (non inject engines) I flew, replacing the pump(s) and some hoses. I never had any problems with the operations except it was sometimes hard to find the clean MOGAS fuel without ethanol. I remember the known 'issues' were carb icing and pre-ignition/detonation.
 
<— burns up buckets of 91 octane ethanol free mogas as often as possible. Two gas stations in town, and one sells ethanol free gas and pretty good ice cream. The other one has decent pizza. So far, though, neither place has promised to pay for an overhaul...
 
cgrab said:
I used MOGAS for a while but my mechanic said it caused a leak in my tanks. We managed to seal it up but with the cost so close between MOGAS and the cheapest AVGAS around, I would rather fly out and get some AVGAS then hassle with hauling 5-gal cans, testing the gas, and using the siphon to fill the high wing tanks. Actually, that's what I'm going to do this morning-fly out to fill the tanks for a trip later this week.
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My tanks are the same design as yours, my airplane is even older by serial number IIRC, had mogas in them for almost 5 years straight now with many years on/off mogas, no leaks.

On the flip side a friend's 1977 177B that has never had mogas in it ever just started leaking last year at the OB tank rib and the aft tank spar at the bottom wing skin.
 
Chesterspal said:
Read an interesting article this morning about how using MOGAS in your plane, assuming it will run on it, can save you enough $$ to pay for your next overhaul. It's also better for the engine in that it has no lead to foul up the plugs. Also, better for the environment, again, because no lead is being burned.

I checked on line and it appears there are enough MOGAS airports to let you travel from one coast to the other. The closest to me is about 60 NM but in the general direction I'm likely to be flying around anyway. There are others around my area, as well.

Just as an aside, I make my own ethanol-free MOGAS myself for my motorcycles to keep their carbs from fouling up and the hoses and gaskets from rotting.

Suppose I can gear up the process enough to make some for my plane :D
Click to expand...

It makes it easier to do if you have big tank, like 300 gallons and can buy bulk when the price is low. Dad got 300 for $2.20 a gallon this year IIRC. I don't have that so I just pay the pump prices at the gas station, and check every load for ethanol.
 
I am aware of certain renegades that have run almost exclusively e10 mogas through their early model C-180 bladders, since they started adding that poison to our mogas, and E0 before that. Best not to leave it setting for more than a couple months for many reasons, but their original bladders didn't have any issues with the ethanol.

The Eagle fuel cells, which have replaced both bladders in my plane, are approved for ethanol fuel. Alas, I have high compression and can't run it in the wagon, no stc. The cub I fly has high compression, but Peterson does have an stc for the 0-320b2b, though only for 91E0. Hard to find, but the engine runs perfect on it when available.

On my original 0-470-L, which had the stc, ran plenty of 87E0 through it and had no issues other than paying half price for fuel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Plenty of airports around here have on-airport Mogas for sale. I use that regularly and have had no issues. Perhaps misplaced faith, but I feel that on-airport mogas will be higher quality than otherwise.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Plenty of airports around here have on-airport Mogas for sale. I use that regularly and have had no issues. Perhaps misplaced faith, but I feel that on-airport mogas will be higher quality than otherwise.
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I've been driving for 45 years and have never had a problem with mogas. I wouldn't run in in a TSIO-520, but it should be fine in a low compression aero engine.
 
If you use MoGas check each load for presence of alcohol. My hangar mate had his C-140 fuel line swelled near-shut from airport fuel. When checked, it was about 5% alcohol. When the FBO was confronted with this, he said the fuel was certified by the supplier as E0. What's more, the credit card people wouldn't release the mailing addresses of previous users so the FBO had no way to warn about 6 weeks of users about the presence of alcohol. This was about 10 years ago however. I've never found alcohol in boat fuel however.
 
I like a bit of both, don’t use scientific ratio but when I can top off with Mogas I figure puts it closer to the gas she was built for- leaded but not 4x what she was meant for.

Could be in my head but I swear she runs smoother when there’s some mogas in the tank.
 
On-airport, conforming mogas can be hard to find. Airports can be reluctant to sell it because of low volume and profitability, plus potential liability issues. If you can get the appropriate STC, using mogas eliminates lead buildup in the engine. I burned it for years in my Grumman when it was readily available, including on-airport. Bear in mind that on-airport mogas will be more expensive than what you pay at the gas station. The savings will be substantial, but not as high as you might expect. When you travel, it may not be available at your stops or destination.

If your aircraft is eligible for a high compression STC which confers "free" extra power, you will have to give up mogas if you install it. Since it is so hard to find conforming mogas in the area--and I do not care to schlep it--I gave up and installed a HC STC at last overhaul.

BTW, an overhaul will cost north of $20k, so to get a "free" overhaul you would have to save $10 an hour in fuel costs over the full 2000 hour life of the engine. If you have a mid time engine, you have to recover more than that. So "free" overhaul seerms a bit rosy. Cost savings, yes.
 
Chesterspal said:
It's also better for the engine in that it has no lead to foul up the plugs. Also, better for the environment, again, because no lead is being burned.
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That’s debatable. Ethanol is also known to foul injectors, so make sure it’s ethanol-free.
 
The people using MOGAS with E10, have you ever considered adding Star Tron (http://www.starbrite.com/startron) to it to prevent the fuel from going bad so quickly due to the ethanol? I have been using it in my gas cans filled with premium MOGAS that I use in all my motorcycles.

Although I'm intrigued by making my own E0 like the OP presented. I'll have to start looking that up now.
 
Nub_Pilot said:
The people using MOGAS with E10, have you ever considered adding Star Tron (http://www.starbrite.com/startron) to it to prevent the fuel from going bad so quickly due to the ethanol? I have been using it in my gas cans filled with premium MOGAS that I use in all my motorcycles.
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No. And, if I have had a problem related to the ethanol, I am not aware of it.

Although I'm intrigued by making my own E0 like the OP presented. I'll have to start looking that up now.
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I'll save you the trouble: Bad idea.
You don't know what you end up with, and disposing of the contaminated ethanol plus other stuff that belongs in the fuel would be purd near impossible to do responsibly.
 
You end up with pure gasoline with no ethanol in it... none. It works and lots of MC folks are doing it where they cannot get gas without ethanol in it.

If you leave the watered ethanol in an open can it will evaporate in a week or so. You do not have to pour it on the ground or down the sink. In fact, you could drink it if you were of that type of mind.
 
Chesterspal said:
You end up with pure gasoline with no ethanol in it... none. It works and lots of MC folks are doing it where they cannot get gas without ethanol in it.

If you leave the watered ethanol in an open can it will evaporate in a week or so. You do not have to pour it on the ground or down the sink. In fact, you could drink it if you were of that type of mind.
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You first! :)
 
Chesterspal said:
You end up with pure gasoline with no ethanol in it... none. It works and lots of MC folks are doing it where they cannot get gas without ethanol in it.

If you leave the watered ethanol in an open can it will evaporate in a week or so. You do not have to pour it on the ground or down the sink. In fact, you could drink it if you were of that type of mind.
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Toluene, also used to increase octane, has a surprisingly high solubility in ethanol/water, and tastes so delicious.
:rolleyes:
 
Ryanb said:
That’s debatable. Ethanol is also known to foul injectors, so make sure it’s ethanol-free.
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Most (all?) modern cars have fuel injectors and run fine on fuel with ethanol. Why don't they have problems?
 
I can buy 100LL for $4.35 a gallon. MOGAS is $4.11.

For $.24 I’m not going to haul containers of gas and eliminate the ethanol.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
No. And, if I have had a problem related to the ethanol, I am not aware of it.


I'll save you the trouble: Bad idea.
You don't know what you end up with, and disposing of the contaminated ethanol plus other stuff that belongs in the fuel would be purd near impossible to do responsibly.
Click to expand...

I've never had a problem with E10 going bad, or suffering from phase separation, even in a marine environment. There are some fuel systems that don't do well with ethanol, such as in older boats and most airplanes, but I've never had an issue with the fuel itself.

Don't get me wrong, I don't favor using corn based ethanol as a motor fuel, and now that E0 is becoming more available I use it when I can, but I have had no issues with E10.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Most (all?) modern cars have fuel injectors and run fine on fuel with ethanol. Why don't they have problems?
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They do.

Ethanol causes problems to the injectors due to its clean burning characteristics. Although ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline and has a cleansing effect on the fuel system, the cleansing process caused by ethanol loosens varnish and deposits in the fuel system that clog the fuel injector. It doesn’t happen overnight, but it does have an effect.

Dad was a mechanic for over 15 years. He witnessed the effects first hand. There’s a reason why many gas stations began offering ‘ethanol-free’ fuel for a premium.
 
Jamie Kirk said:
I can buy 100LL for $4.35 a gallon. MOGAS is $4.11.

For $.24 I’m not going to haul containers of gas and eliminate the ethanol.
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Your problem is probably due to your location. E0 around here in Tulsa is priced about the same as Premium 91/93 octane E10, which is currently $2.70/gal. I've found that they typically have about a $0.30-0.35 premium for E0 over E10 of the same octane. Which, when I do the math for my F-150, is basically right around break-even for using either fuel when it come to cost per mile since I get a decent bump in MPG with E0.
 
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