Minimum altitudes - Anyone know the FAA's definition?

kicktireslightfires

kicktireslightfires

Pre-takeoff checklist
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kicktireslightfires
Does anyone know what the FAA's definition of the following is?

1. "congested area"
2. "uncongested area"
3. "sparsely populated area"

Is there any specific guidance on what "congested" is to mean so that it's not subjective and debatable? I thought I was clear on this until I read the CFR and saw "sparsely populated area" in C. I thought the only place you could fly below 500 feet AGL was either on takeoff or landing or over water. So I'm very curious if anyone knows exactly what a "sparsely populated area" is?

14 CFR § 91.119 - Minimum safe altitudes
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
 
I think it mostly depends on whether or not someone complains. For most of us, there is no reason to fly lower than 1,000 AGL anyway, so just be sure you are at least that high. If you are an AG operator, banner tow operator, et., just have to use your best judgment and hope nobody complains. :-]
 
texasclouds said:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2010/Simmons - (2010) Legal Interpretation.pdf
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Thank you! Great find! I'm quite surprised to hear the FAA say these things, however:

"The FAA has not defined the term “congested area” by regulation and does not use a mathematical formula to determine the boundaries of a congested area."

“…no precise density of population, ground traffic or congestion, or description of the proximity of buildings, or number of residences has been devised.”

“...there is no precise definition of a “congested area…""
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Thank you! Great find! I'm quite surprised to hear the FAA say these things, however:

"The FAA has not defined the term “congested area” by regulation and does not use a mathematical formula to determine the boundaries of a congested area."

“…no precise density of population, ground traffic or congestion, or description of the proximity of buildings, or number of residences has been devised.”

“...there is no precise definition of a “congested area…""
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I'm not. Administrative discretion. Better known as "I'll know it when I see it".
 
wsuffa said:
I'm not. Administrative discretion. Better known as "I'll know it when I see it".
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Isn't that a bit like running a competition and not telling the players what the rules are and just that you'll let them know once someone has done the secret thing required to win the game or let them know once someone has committed a violation, without defining what a violation consists of in advance? It's like a game with no pre-defined rules in advance.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Does anyone know what the FAA's definition of the following is?

1. "congested area"
2. "uncongested area"
3. "sparsely populated area"

Is there any specific guidance on what "congested" is to mean so that it's not subjective and debatable? I thought I was clear on this until I read the CFR and saw "sparsely populated area" in C. I thought the only place you could fly below 500 feet AGL was either on takeoff or landing or over water. So I'm very curious if anyone knows exactly what a "sparsely populated area" is?

14 CFR § 91.119 - Minimum safe altitudes
Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
Click to expand...

1. Lots of complaints
2. A few complaints
3. Rare complaints
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Isn't that a bit like running a competition and not telling the players what the rules are and just that you'll let them know once someone has done the secret thing required to win the game or let them know once someone has committed a violation, without defining what a violation consists of in advance? It's like a game with no pre-defined rules in advance.
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Let’s face it: ANY answer given would be subject to “yeah, but whatabout…” by SOMEONE. Personally I think the FAA answer is about as objective as one can be on a subjective issue.

They now seem to have said the yellow on the maps is information for flight planning but not regulatory. Unlike a Restricted Area, MOA, or even Class E altitude transition, there are no regulation-defined lat-long boundaries to them, I bet. They’re more for our awareness of where emergency landing sites will be harder to find, etc. As soon as they declared them to be “congested areas” someone would go actively find a big patch of open space in one and call out the absurdity of saying it’s “congested”.

In a yellow area or not, I would hope any reasonable pilot would think flying low over a crowded event puts more non-pilots at risk than flying over a corn field.

Personally I like the response even though it’s more vague than my analytical mind might otherwise prefer. One HUGE benefit, to me, is to make pilots think about what they’re doing and not think non-yellow areas are “do-what-I-want” zones.

I fly a gyro and love to fly low when it’s safe. 10 feet above the water is a hoot but I always pull up and away from any boaters and stay away from docks, etc. Technically if I’m pointing my vector away from someone I could probably safely go within 50 feet of them but that would greatly increase the odds of them calling it in. By obviously pulling up and away at a good distance I wanna believe they know I’m not trying to be a jerk, so they don’t even think about trying to report it, even if technically I may have been within 500 feet.
 
The yellow on the chart depicts areas that are illuminated, for night navigation, no more. While such areas are likely to be considered "congested", it's not a reliable indicator.

The FAA has said that it considers what is a congested area on a case by case basis. As others have said, it depends on who or how many people you annoy.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Isn't that a bit like running a competition and not telling the players what the rules are and just that you'll let them know once someone has done the secret thing required to win the game or let them know once someone has committed a violation, without defining what a violation consists of in advance? It's like a game with no pre-defined rules in advance.
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There are lots of situations with gray areas, but that does not mean that there are not also black areas and white areas. It's a pretty common logical fallacy to argue that the existence of gray precludes the existence black and/or white.
 
I was once told that a big clue for congested areas was the yellow on a sectional.

Clearly that’s not the definition, but it is a good clue.
 
Absent an FAA definition, extremely or excessively full or crowded. The populated areas on a sectional chart depicted in yellow tint. (Yellow tinted areas indicate populated places)
 
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I really think most pilots know what they should not do, but sometimes when trying to impress somebody or show off, they do something they know better but do anyway. Just try not to give the rest of us grief or make us look bad. :)
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Thank you! Great find! I'm quite surprised to hear the FAA say these things, however:

"The FAA has not defined the term “congested area” by regulation and does not use a mathematical formula to determine the boundaries of a congested area."

“…no precise density of population, ground traffic or congestion, or description of the proximity of buildings, or number of residences has been devised.”

“...there is no precise definition of a “congested area…""
Click to expand...
Why does that surprise you? It’s what I expect from the FAA. Gives them all the discretion and you have a damn hard time holding them responsible to a standard because there is not a standard. It’s whatever they think is appropriate.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So how many times have you had interactions with the FAA?
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How many times have you not had an interaction with the FAA?

hint, neither is relevant.
 
My comment is based on anecdotal experience. The FAA is not standardized in any way. FSDO shopping can be irritating but it’s often possible to get the answer you want.
 
kicktireslightfires said:
Isn't that a bit like running a competition and not telling the players what the rules are and just that you'll let them know once someone has done the secret thing required to win the game or let them know once someone has committed a violation, without defining what a violation consists of in advance? It's like a game with no pre-defined rules in advance.
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Exactly. And the FAA is not the only regulatory agency that does stuff like that. Administrative law and all that.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Why does that surprise you? It’s what I expect from the FAA. Gives them all the discretion and you have a damn hard time holding them responsible to a standard because there is not a standard. It’s whatever they think is appropriate.
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Then you come up with a definition, and let's see how well you do.

Like the Supreme Court said in reference to porn. I know it when I see it.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
 
Ah, yes. The Simmons letter. Where the FAA reiterates is claim that it can change any rule, to mean anything it wants, anytime it wants. Even if it contradicts itself on a case by case basis.
 
wsuffa said:
Plenty of jurisdictions have a "disorderly conduct" law that law enforcement can use. Define what, specifically, disorderly conduct is.
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Citing more examples does not make it valid. Just more examples of stupid. I used to be a real law enforcement officer unlike FAA inspectors and I can tell you that individuals entrusted with discretionary authority to make your life **** often abuse that authority. I have seen it as a LEO and I have personal experience of the same crap from employees of the FAA. If you have never been subjected to such behavior I’m happy for your fortune.
 
Yellow on the sectional= congested. At least that’s how my CFI in 1994 told me how to tell the difference.
 
Common sense is your friend. Go up in the plane. If there's houses below you, you're probably not in a sparsely-populated area. If there's whole neighborhoods, you're not in an uncongested area. If there's a major metro area below, you're definitely in a congested area.
 
Dana said:
The FAA has said that it considers what is a congested area on a case by case basis. As others have said, it depends on who or how many people you annoy.
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Right on! They will tell what the definition is after they smack you with a violation ...
 
tspear said:
Then you come up with a definition, and let's see how well you do.

Like the Supreme Court said in reference to porn. I know it when I see it.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
It would be easy enough to do like they do with speed limits on non-limited access roads. X number of driveways/mile sets the speed limit. X number of houses in a 1/4 mile square is congested. Less than that number and it's uncongested. The reason they don't is simple. Easier to make **** up to bust you.
 
EdFred said:
It would be easy enough to do like they do with speed limits on non-limited access roads. X number of driveways/mile sets the speed limit. X number of houses in a 1/4 mile square is congested. Less than that number and it's uncongested. The reason they don't is simple. Easier to make **** up to bust you.
Click to expand...

We also don’t need the FAA to make up more guidelines and limits. We as pilots do not have many rules to follow. It’s only the very few that do stupid things, or can’t just leave things alone and write to chief council for interpretation of things that really didn’t need an interpretation.

If everyone used common sense we will all be just fine.
 
EdFred said:
It would be easy enough to do like they do with speed limits on non-limited access roads. X number of driveways/mile sets the speed limit. X number of houses in a 1/4 mile square is congested. Less than that number and it's uncongested. The reason they don't is simple. Easier to make **** up to bust you.
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Over what area, each acre, or zip code? And how do you inform the pilots, how does the FAA get the data? How do you map it?
Where I used to be based, there was a subdivision with a few hundred homes all with 1/4 acre lots. Does this make a congested area? If so for what circumference around it? There was another development started before the 08 crash, it had maybe five homes built, on one roughly acre lots; is this congested? Both developments, the nearest town was ten miles away, and it had a population of about 3K. Next closest town with at least four digits for population was 50+ miles away. Do these count as congested?

I am just getting started. I hope you can see the problem.

Tim
 
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