Minimum altitudes - Anyone know the FAA's definition?

We also don’t need the FAA to make up more guidelines and limits. We as pilots do not have many rules to follow. It’s only the very few that do stupid things, or can’t just leave things alone and write to chief council for interpretation of things that really didn’t need an interpretation.

If everyone used common sense we will all be just fine.
That’s how it works most of the time but those same asshats that write the chief council have retarded twins working for the FAA.
 
Over what area, each acre, or zip code? And how do you inform the pilots, how does the FAA get the data? How do you map it?
Where I used to be based, there was a subdivision with a few hundred homes all with 1/4 acre lots. Does this make a congested area? If so for what circumference around it? There was another development started before the 08 crash, it had maybe five homes built, on one roughly acre lots; is this congested? Both developments, the nearest town was ten miles away, and it had a population of about 3K. Next closest town with at least four digits for population was 50+ miles away. Do these count as congested?

I am just getting started. I hope you can see the problem.

Tim

There is no problem. They picked 500 and 1000 and you have expressed no issue with that. A density number is a density number just like 500 and 1000 are altitudes. Determine a density number and that's the definition. Easy.

As for your example...1/4 acre lots are small af, so yeah, congested.
 
Warning: long post!

I did some research some years back when I was flying paramotors and other ultralights. Ultralights aren’t subject to the Part 91 altitude limits but they are prohibited from flying over any “congested area” at any altitude. This is what I put together during a discussion on a paramotor forum back then, and probably more than anybody cares about, but anyway:

Over a few years I've poked around online trying to get a handle on the "congested area" issue. I could find surprisingly few cases involving ultralights, which could be a good thing, indicating that we aren't considered too much of a problem, but there are a few involving Part 91 operations (usually involving low flying or aerobatics over congested areas). What follows is various opinions, with links, and my own comments interspersed.

from http://www.ntsb.gov/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4188.PDF:
NTSB Order No. EA-4188, about low flying over a highway:

"...The deputy sheriff riding in the passenger seat testified that the aircraft operated over the freeway for at least 30 seconds, at an altitude of 75-100 feet... In the Board's view, even if Interstate 5, a major California freeway, is not "bumper to bumper" on a late Saturday afternoon, moderate traffic in every lane still renders it "congested," for purposes of the regulation. See also Administrator v. Dutton, NTSB Order No. EA-3204 (1990)(Moderate traffic on a highway at 12:55 p.m. is a congested area for purposes of the minimum safe altitude regulation)."

from http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/aviation/3646.PDF
"...the Shepard Mesa subdivision -- comprised of a minimum of 20 houses, in an area approximately .5 mi. x .66 mi. -- would qualify as a congested area."

DMH note: .33 square miles = 211 acres, average 10 acre lots (!)

from http://www.faa.gov/programs/en/ane/noise/submit.cfm:
"There is no regulatory definition of 'congested area'. Administrative case law has determined what is congested on a case-by-case basis. [Case references are available on request]). The public should be aware that an area does not have to be completely free of persons or properties to be considered noncongested. Additionally, it is possible that small, noncongested areas as small as an acre or two may allow aerobatics to be performed without violating 91.303's stipulations."

DMH note: 91.303 prohibits aerobatics over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement or over an open air assembly of persons (sounds like 103, doesn't it?)

The FAA has actually has stated in a 1979 Legal Opinion that it will be determined on a case-by-case basis. Below is a copy of the Opinion--note the FAR references have changed.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"In response to your letter dated August 28, 1979, and subsequent telephone conversation, we offer the following answers to your three questions. The facts on which our interpretations are based are as follows:

A fixed wing aircraft operating at an altitude of 600 feet flew directly over a populated subdivision of Prince William County, Virginia. The subdivision consisted of at least 40 residential homes on one acre lots. While operating in this area, the aircraft made a number of steep turns over one of these houses.

1. What is the interpretation of the term "congested area of a city, town or settlement" as that term is used in Section 91.79(b) of the FARs?

The meaning of the term "congested area" is determined on a case-by-case basis. It first appeared in the Air Commerce Regulations of 1926. No abstract regulatory definition has yet been developed. However, the following guidelines indicate the interpretations of the Civil Aeronautics board (now National Transportation Safety Board) in attempting to give meaning to the term.

a. The purpose of the rule is to provide minimum safe altitudes for flight and to provide adequate protection to persons on the ground. Thus, it distinguishes flight over sparsely settled areas as well as large metropolitan areas from low flying aircraft. Thus, size of the area is not controlling, and violations of the rule have been sustained for operation of aircraft: (i) over a small congested area consisting of approximately 10 houses and a school (Allman, 5 C.A.B. 8 (1940)); (ii) over campus of a university (Tobin, 5 C.A.B. 162, 164(1941); (iii) over a beach area along a highway, and (iv) over a boy's camp where there were numerous people on the docks and children at play on shore.

b. The presence of people is important to the determination of whether a particular area is "congested." Thus, no violation was found in the case of a flight over a large shop building and four one-family dwellings because, in the words of the CAB examiner, "it is not known (to the court) whether the dwellings were occupied." In that case, the area surrounding the buildings was open, flat and semiarid.

c. The term has been interpreted to prohibit overflights that cut the corners of large, heavily congested residential areas.

As made clear in FAR 91.79, the congested area must be an area of a city, town, or settlement.

2. What is the interpretation of the term "sparsely populated areas" as contained in Section 91.79(c)?

While this term is not expressly defined, we can conclude that it is something other than a congested area under Section 91.79(a). A subdivision of at least 40 occupied residential homes on adjacent one acre lots in Price William County, VA, would not be considered a sparsely populated area. Such a subdivision would well constitute a "settlement" under the rule.

Please feel free to contact us if we can be of further assistance.

Sincerely,

EDWARD P. FABERMAN

Acting Assistant Chief Counsel

Regulation and Enforcement Division

Office of the Chief Counsel"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interestingly, although the FAA doesn't explicitly define "congested area", other countries do:

from http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZSI568Y2001.html
IRISH AVIATION AUTHORITY (RULES OF THE AIR) ORDER, 2001
"'congested area' means in relation to a city, town or settlement, an area substantially used for residential, commercial or recreational purposes without adequate safe forced landing areas"

One other area where the FAA talks about congested areas is for helicopter external load operations, which have all kinds of requirements when done in congested areas, requiring a "congested area plan"”

from http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/faa/8700/8700_vol2/2_102_00.pdf:
(CHAPTER 102. EVALUATE A PART 133 CONGESTED AREA PLAN (CAP))

"(a) Congested Area. The congested nature of an area is defined by what exists on the surface, not the size of the area. While the presence of the nonparticipating public is the most important determination of congested, the area may also be congested with structures or objects. An area considered congested for airplane operations could be equally congested for helicopters. If an airplane flying over a congested area at less than 1,000 feet above ground level (AGL) is in violation of 14 CFR § 91.119(b), the area may also be a congested area for a helicopter conducting external load operations. However, the most important word in this concept is over. Helicopters can operate over relatively small uncongested areas because of their maneuvering abilities."

In Europe, as they consolidate air law, they are looking at the concept of "exposure time" as a way to evaluate helicopter safety over congested areas. The FAA doesn’t do it this way, but the idea is an interesting way of looking at safety:

from http://www.aviationtoday.com/cgi/rw/show_mag.cgi?pub=rw&mon=1200&file=1200jar.htm:

"Hostile environments," as defined under JAR-OPS 3.480, include areas where "a safe forced landing cannot be accomplished because the surface is inadequate"; where there is "an unacceptable risk of endangering persons or property on the ground"; and "those parts of a congested area without adequate safe forced landing areas."...

"Congested areas," as defined in JAR-OPS 3, are essentially any densely populated town or city where no open spaces exist to permit a safe emergency landing in the event of an engine failure.

"...industry and regulatory representatives agreed that the "congested area" concept is made redundant by the distinction between "hostile" and "non-hostile" environments...

"Another concept created by JAR-OPS 3 was that of "exposure times." Performance Class 1, Category A helicopters can fly over hostile and congested areas, but JAR-OPS 3 allows Performance 2, Category A helicopters to fly over hostile, non-congested areas with an exposure time, the length of which depends on a target engine failure probability of 5 x 10-8.

"This translates, in practical terms, to exposures ranging from a few seconds to several minutes."
 
It would be easy enough to do like they do with speed limits on non-limited access roads. X number of driveways/mile sets the speed limit. X number of houses in a 1/4 mile square is congested. Less than that number and it's uncongested. The reason they don't is simple. Easier to make **** up to bust you.


But an area that is not congested one day may be congested the next. It depends on people being present.

Example - a beach may be barren in the middle of winter but congested during spring break.

“Congested” is a condition, and a variable one at that, not a region.
 
But an area that is not congested one day may be congested the next. It depends on people being present.

Example - a beach may be barren in the middle of winter but congested during spring break.

“Congested” is a condition, and a variable one at that, not a region.

I never said it needed to be charted.
 
I never said it needed to be charted.


You suggested a standard of # houses per 1/4 sq mile, thereby suggesting a region. I gave one simple example (there are many others) where that can’t work. Congestion changes over time, sometimes rapidly.
 
You suggested a standard of # houses per 1/4 sq mile, thereby suggesting a region. I gave one simple example (there are many others) where that can’t work. Congestion changes over time, sometimes rapidly.

Correct it is dynamic, and as pilots if we are flying that low, we can count and compare provided we are given defined guidelines. X number of people or structure density is all is needed. As a group that is *supposed* to be smarter than average, we should be able to look at and determine whether that density number is met with our eyes. The problem is the FAA won't establish a measurable guideline.

One ruling says 10 houses per sq mi is congested, the next ruling says 10 per sq mi is not. That's the issue, give us *something* definitive to go on
 
Can someone show some examples of enforcement cases where the FAA unfairly took certificate action against a pilot for a violation of 91.119(b) based on the definition of "congested area"?
 
Can someone show some examples of enforcement cases where the FAA unfairly took certificate action against a pilot for a violation of 91.119(b) based on the definition of "congested area"?

There was a couple of them cited already. 20 houses with 10 acre lots is NOT congested in any normal persons book. But when you have people who get off on punishing people,they can unfairly make **** up. A 10 acre lot is 660 x 660.
 
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So much for "a government of laws, and not of men." (John Adams is spinning in his grave.)
On the flip side there’s a guy at our airpark who apparently has it in his house deed that he has permanent access to the runway without needing to be a member (and helping to pay for upkeep). He also has a noisy plane he loves to fly literally just to p!$$ people off: with rare exception, the only flying he seems to do is in the evenings and strictly pattern work (even though that’s against Airpark rules), hanging on the prop. Non-flying neighbors have complained for YEARS but to no avail. Numerous reports to the FSDO over the years have only emboldened him, it seems.

If people lived by the Golden Rule there’d be little need for any other rules. Until they do, sadly, we’re stuck trying to codify common sense.

I’d be surprised if any low level “event” that actually ended up in an enforcement action was not something even the average pilot would say was not smart. Passing over a congested area at 500 feet en route to somewhere seems like a low risk for enforcement action. Circling for 10 minutes over a rock concert at 500 feet raises the risk - both to people and of enforcement.
 
Citing more examples does not make it valid. Just more examples of stupid. I used to be a real law enforcement officer unlike FAA inspectors and I can tell you that individuals entrusted with discretionary authority to make your life **** often abuse that authority. I have seen it as a LEO and I have personal experience of the same crap from employees of the FAA. If you have never been subjected to such behavior I’m happy for your fortune.

You will get no disagreement from me. I was nearly pointing out how discretionary authority has become the basis of US laws and regulations. I personally have seen how it can be abused. But we're not going to solve the problem here.
 
There was a couple of them cited already. 20 houses with 10 acre lots is NOT congested in any normal persons book. But when you have people who get off on punishing people,they can unfairly make **** up. A 10 acre lot is 660 x 660.
Yeah. This appears to be the subdivision in question. It might be an average of 10 acres per house depending on where you draw your box, but those aren't 10-acre lots. And while there was testimony that the subdivision actually contained up to 70 houses, the NTSB went with at least 20 in concluding it wasn't sparsely populated. Also, the ALJ concluded the overflight was at 300' AGL. And the pilot in question (a CFI) fought the FAA on every bit of everything and only got a 60-day suspension. I'm not seeing all the unfairness here.

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https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/3646.pdf
 

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Yeah. This appears to be the subdivision in question. It might be an average of 10 acres per house depending on where you draw your box, but those aren't 10-acre lots. And while there was testimony that the subdivision actually contained up to 70 houses, the NTSB went with at least 20 in concluding it wasn't sparsely populated. Also, the ALJ concluded the overflight was at 300' AGL. And the pilot in question (a CFI) fought the FAA on every bit of everything and only got a 60-day suspension. I'm not seeing all the unfairness here.

View attachment 97518

https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/3646.pdf

Then the info quoted from the NTSB was WAY off, I would not consider that sparsely populated.
 
Plenty of jurisdictions have a "disorderly conduct" law that law enforcement can use. Define what, specifically, disorderly conduct is.

At least in Florida they make an attempt to define it:

877.03 Breach of the peace; disorderly conduct.—Whoever commits such acts as are of a nature to corrupt the public morals, or outrage the sense of public decency, or affect the peace and quiet of persons who may witness them, or engages in brawling or fighting, or engages in such conduct as to constitute a breach of the peace or disorderly conduct, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Though admittedly it does seem to say you'v committed disorderly conduct if you engage in disorderly conduct. So there's that.
 
At least in Florida they make an attempt to define it:

877.03 Breach of the peace; disorderly conduct.—Whoever commits such acts as are of a nature to corrupt the public morals, or outrage the sense of public decency, or affect the peace and quiet of persons who may witness them, or engages in brawling or fighting, or engages in such conduct as to constitute a breach of the peace or disorderly conduct, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

Though admittedly it does seem to say you'v committed disorderly conduct if you engage in disorderly conduct. So there's that.
There's that - but what is "corrupting the public morals" or "oitrage the sense of public decency". So really it's all discretion.
 
I’d be surprised if any low level “event” that actually ended up in an enforcement action was not something even the average pilot would say was not smart. Passing over a congested area at 500 feet en route to somewhere seems like a low risk for enforcement action. Circling for 10 minutes over a rock concert at 500 feet raises the risk - both to people and of enforcement.
Having spent my share of time at 600 AGL with big N-numbers on my airplane with no problems, this seems to be a realistic assessment.
 
......
(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.

I've thought for a long time that this statement loosely defines not congested...so by extrapolation, if one can't maintain those minimum separations then it's congested....very loose but seems like a logical simplified guideline.

Regardless, those loosely written regs do give pause...are they a trap? are they there to give forgiveness?
 
So really it's all discretion.

Most laws are subjective to some extent. That is why we have judges and juries, instead of crime computers.

I was a jury foreman on a case once where one of the charges was "resisting arrest with violence." We asked the judge what the definition of "violence" was. She said use your judgement.
 
And what is flying over? Is it directly over? Just on the edge? 1/8 mile, a mile? How could anyone on the ground tell your altitude and if you were over them?

I think just don't be stupid is a pretty good rule.
 
Most laws are subjective to some extent. That is why we have judges and juries, instead of crime computers.

Exactly. An officer sees a driver do something out of the ordinary, and potentially dangerous. The officer can choose either “Careless Driving”, which at most usually results in a ticket, or “Reckless Driving” which is arrestable and carries much higher penalties. He or she can look at the wording of the two statutes and decide on that basis. But there’s often a fine line between the two, and there is invariably subjectivity at some level. I think that’s what we have with deciding what is a “Congested Area”.

Note: my using Careless vs. Reckless driving comparison is based on FL law. No doubt other states may have different laws defined differently.
 
Most laws are subjective to some extent. That is why we have judges and juries, instead of crime computers.

I was a jury foreman on a case once where one of the charges was "resisting arrest with violence." We asked the judge what the definition of "violence" was. She said use your judgement.
Hence the phrase "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride".
 
Yeah. This appears to be the subdivision in question. It might be an average of 10 acres per house depending on where you draw your box, but those aren't 10-acre lots. And while there was testimony that the subdivision actually contained up to 70 houses, the NTSB went with at least 20 in concluding it wasn't sparsely populated. Also, the ALJ concluded the overflight was at 300' AGL. And the pilot in question (a CFI) fought the FAA on every bit of everything and only got a 60-day suspension. I'm not seeing all the unfairness here.

View attachment 97518

https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/3646.pdf
If the overflight was at 300 AGL, they could have sustained a violation without calling it a congested area. However I would agree that the area in the photo qualifies (although I wonder how many of the houses in that photo were built in the 32 years since the flight took place.)

I think the unfairness, if any, is in the fact that the terms in the regulation are ambiguous enough to make it difficult to predict whether a given flight will be considered to be in violation in some cases. I don't think 300 AGL over houses is an example of that.
 
I think the unfairness is in the fact that the terms in the regulation are ambiguous enough to make it difficult to predict whether a given flight will be considered to be in violation in some cases.

Again, I’d contend it was “unfair” only if there were actual cases where an adverse consequence resulted from a situation most reasonable pilots would think was a questionable violation. I personally haven’t seen any of those. In fact, seems to me when more facts are known, even “harsh” judgments make more sense. I’m thinking specifically of Martha Lunken and her flying under a bridge, causing her to lose her ticket. Seemed harsh at first - till we learned her ADS-B magically “failed” at the time of the event - and she had alluded to past episodes of a similar nature in her book!

While ambiguity has the POTENTIAL to be unfair it also has the potential to be sensible for infinitely variable circumstances. I’m good with that. Strict definitions feel like they’re a setup for the little-kid game of “I’m not touching you!!!!”
 
Didn't the FAA cite Martha Lunken for flying too close to structures?

:stirpot:
 
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