Military Helo Rotorwash

wetzelaviation

wetzelaviation

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Wetzel Aviation
I’ve run into a situation that I wanted to get other peoples opinion on. During a recent flight for proficiency I was out in the training area at our airport doing maneuvering and decided it was time to head back to the field. It was approaching night and I heard a CTAF broadcast that stated “overwatch hovering over runway 23”. I didn’t think much of the broadcast. We are in an area with military bases and aircraft everywhere. When I entered the pattern I saw a military helicopter hovering over the approach end of the runway so there was no way to land. Two things came to mine when observing this.

- Due to rotorwash it wouldn’t be advisable to land until the air settled
- If an inbound aircraft was approaching and low on fuel the disturbed air would be a problem if a pilot had to get on the ground immediately

First let me say that this is a public use airport and there have been at least one unexplained crash of departing traffic that occurred after a similar military maneuver at this same airport. I believe that the military should be able to train as needed but I am concerned that this type of training may be causing unsafe conditions as no mention of rotorwash danger and once the helicopter departed the area at the untowered airport the danger persist for several minutes afterward.

I have had an incident a few years ago at a towered airport with an advisory and even doing everything to avoid rotorwash i still hit an area of unstable air a decent way away from where the helicopter was previously hovering so even with warnings things can still happen so im concerned that the military never mentioned the risk on the CTAF and I feel like its only a matter of time until somebody’s aircraft takes an upset due to this type of training and lack of warning.

I’m curious to hear other peoples thoughts. I’m have tempted to make a safety report to the FAA. The airport is aware of the issue and I’m trying to figure out the best plan of action that can help all involved.

Denying access to runways is a valid need for the military especially during VIP movements and similar activity. I just feel that the military should do the GA fleet a courtesy and let them know over the CTAF if this scenario occurs.
 
Well, in the case of the Hampton Roads area there are plenty of military airfields for them to play at. I don't understand why they need to occupy a public-use field for such training...mind you this is coming from a military guy. I don't really understand the hovering, though. Are they just hanging out in one spot?
 
Your story seems incomplete ... what communications did you have with the military crew? Did you broadcast you position and intentions, and what was their response?
 
KE5BM said:
Well, in the case of the Hampton Roads area there are plenty of military airfields for them to play at. I don't understand why they need to occupy a public-use field for such training...mind you this is coming from a military guy. I don't really understand the hovering, though. Are they just hanging out in one spot?
Click to expand...
Yeah that’s the area I’m talking about. I agree they should at least warn incoming pilots. Thanks for your input, Yes they blackout the chopper and literally sit in one spot at the end of the runway denying use of the runway for 10-15 mins.
 
AviationObserver said:
Your story seems incomplete ... what communications did you have with the military crew? Did you broadcast you position and intentions, and what was their response?
Click to expand...
I broadcasted that I was 10 miles out. They only announced that they were over the field. Once I called a downwind they flew away and their lights came back on. I suspect they are practicing denying access to the airfields for VIP movements but that’s just a guess. They announced their position, I announced my position but had to break off the pattern because I knew the air was gonna be turbulent over that end if the runway.
 
After researching this a bit I found out that in fact the practice they are doing is called denial operations. Those operations which are intended to simulate denial of resources that may be of use to an enemy.

There are Air Force and Navy rules for this type of operation but no mention of any requirements for them to announce their position. With lights out I just worry somebody without a radio could have an issue if they were hovering there and were missed by a pilot.

I haven’t noticed them doing it lately but for awhile they would do this several times an evening.
 
A NASA report might help. You could always voice your concerns to the controlling entity. In your area, there are only 3 bases that are home to air operations...NAS Oceana (closing soon), NAS Norfolk, and AFB Langley (maybe Eustis as well but unlikely). It's possible there are aircraft coming down from PAX or up from MCAS Cherry Point but I doubt it.

Several years back, I lived adjacent to a NASA facility that allowed for Navy E-2/C-2 aircraft to conduct carrier landing practice. This resulted in one of those aircraft flying over my house every 30 seconds or so for hours at a time. I certainly don't mind the sound of freedom...BUT...policy existed that they were only allowed to do night ops up to 10pm. For a while they were pressing their luck by flying until 1, even 2am. Some folks called NAS Norfolk to complain, citing that policy. The CO of the facility immediately rectified the issue. For the remainder of the time I lived in that house, flight ops ended promptly at 10.
 
KE5BM said:
A NASA report might help. You could always voice your concerns to the controlling entity. In your area, there are only 3 bases that are home to air operations...NAS Oceana (closing soon), NAS Norfolk, and AFB Langley (maybe Eustis as well but unlikely). It's possible there are aircraft coming down from PAX or up from MCAS Cherry Point but I doubt it.

Several years back, I lived adjacent to a NASA facility that allowed for Navy E-2/C-2 aircraft to conduct carrier landing practice. This resulted in one of those aircraft flying over my house every 30 seconds or so for hours at a time. I certainly don't mind the sound of freedom...BUT...policy existed that they were only allowed to do night ops up to 10pm. For a while they were pressing their luck by flying until 1, even 2am. Some folks called NAS Norfolk to complain, citing that policy. The CO of the facility immediately rectified the issue. For the remainder of the time I lived in that house, flight ops ended promptly at 10.
Click to expand...
I definitely don’t want to interrupt training activity but I’m more concerned with a new pilot not familiar with that type of operations ending in an unrecoverable upset because they didn’t realize there was wake or rotorwash. I’ll see if I can get ahold of flight operations at NAS and see if they know the callsign of the aircraft and see what we can come up with. Honestly just warning incoming pilots for the next 10-15 mins would be sufficient and it wouldn’t cost anything except a few radio calls. The military aviators out here are really good normally. I do know they do this sometimes with VIP movement to give the VIP aircraft time to get to altitude and out of the temporary restricted areas but this is now happening when they train as well and I think we can probably find a middle ground that helps to keep other pilots safe and aware of the situation.
 
KE5BM said:
A NASA report might help. You could always voice your concerns to the controlling entity. In your area, there are only 3 bases that are home to air operations...NAS Oceana (closing soon), NAS Norfolk, and AFB Langley (maybe Eustis as well but unlikely). It's possible there are aircraft coming down from PAX or up from MCAS Cherry Point but I doubt it.

Several years back, I lived adjacent to a NASA facility that allowed for Navy E-2/C-2 aircraft to conduct carrier landing practice. This resulted in one of those aircraft flying over my house every 30 seconds or so for hours at a time. I certainly don't mind the sound of freedom...BUT...policy existed that they were only allowed to do night ops up to 10pm. For a while they were pressing their luck by flying until 1, even 2am. Some folks called NAS Norfolk to complain, citing that policy. The CO of the facility immediately rectified the issue. For the remainder of the time I lived in that house, flight ops ended promptly at 10.
Click to expand...
I still hear those engines firing up late into the night and I’m over here in Moyock.
 
wetzelaviation said:
I’ve run into a situation that I wanted to get other peoples opinion on. During a recent flight for proficiency I was out in the training area at our airport doing maneuvering and decided it was time to head back to the field. It was approaching night and I heard a CTAF broadcast that stated “overwatch hovering over runway 23”. I didn’t think much of the broadcast. We are in an area with military bases and aircraft everywhere. When I entered the pattern I saw a military helicopter hovering over the approach end of the runway so there was no way to land. Two things came to mine when observing this.

- Due to rotorwash it wouldn’t be advisable to land until the air settled
- If an inbound aircraft was approaching and low on fuel the disturbed air would be a problem if a pilot had to get on the ground immediately

First let me say that this is a public use airport and there have been at least one unexplained crash of departing traffic that occurred after a similar military maneuver at this same airport. I believe that the military should be able to train as needed but I am concerned that this type of training may be causing unsafe conditions as no mention of rotorwash danger and once the helicopter departed the area at the untowered airport the danger persist for several minutes afterward.
Click to expand...
I think (but don't know) that you're being overly concerned. I don't think disturbed air from rotorwash is persistent. As long as the helicopter exits the runway area 30 seconds or so before you turn final, I can't imagine there would be a problem.
 
kyleb said:
I think (but don't know) that you're being overly concerned. I don't think disturbed air from rotorwash is persistent. As long as the helicopter exits the runway area 30 seconds or so before you turn final, I can't imagine there would be a problem.
Click to expand...
Wake turbulent and rotor wash can stick around ALOT longer than 30 seconds.

I’ve flown through an area 10 mins afterwards and had issues especially in a lightweight LSA.



Here is but one example:


I truly AM concerned because any accident that can be prevented should be.
 
The helo’s from Rucker come down to my field often. Even had some Ospreys from Elgin drop in a few times. Unless there’s a good wind, I stay clear for at least 5 min after the helo’s have been here. If the Opsrey’s have been around I’ll stay away for maybe a day. ;)
 
donjohnston said:
The helo’s from Rucker come down to my field often. Even had some Ospreys from Elgin drop in a few times. Unless there’s a good wind, I stay clear for at least 5 min after the helo’s have been here. If the Opsrey’s have been around I’ll stay away for maybe a day. ;)
Click to expand...
I really had a scare one day I departed long after a helicopter took off over the runway. When i hit the turbulence I didn’t have enough aileron to correct for the wake for a few seconds. I am gonna reach out to the FAA and local military base on Monday and see if I can get a solution. I think it’s great we are all sharing the airport, I am concerned at the volume of activity and am hoping they can put in an SOP to have the pilots of the helo warn incoming traffic for at least 10 mins after carrying out their operations. I think it would hopefully eliminate the issue of somebody incoming to the field slowing down to landing configuration having to deal with a surprise they weren’t expecting.

The more I research it the more i think it’s a good idea to warn the incoming traffic.

Thank you all for the suggestions and conversation. It really helped me as I was researching it.

I found a lot of video and articles on the subject and if it saves one life it will be worth my crying the sky is falling. Especially since it’s virtually free to warn people. It’s just an SOP change.

Some reference materials:

www.boldmethod.com

The Real Dangers Of Encountering Rotor Wash

Unfortunately, there is no information provided by the FAA in the Aeronautical Information Manual as to recommended separation criteria between light aircraft and helicopters for wake turbulence avoidance.
www.boldmethod.com www.boldmethod.com

www.aviationsafetymagazine.com

Rotor Wash - Aviation Safety

Dealing with prop wash or jet blast is relatively straightforward: It is directed behind the aircraft. Wingtip vortices are a bit more complicated, but still they are easy enough to visualize. Helicopter rotorwash can almost be seen as a hybrid blend of the two. A recent accident at a Colorado...
www.aviationsafetymagazine.com www.aviationsafetymagazine.com

Helicopter Rotor Wash on Takeoff

Thought I'd share a little video of a recent takeoff I had. Just another day, just another routine takeoff roll. Notice the helicopter on the taxiway, he turns and his rotor wash / engine exhaust wash create a nice wake turbulence over the active runway. As I lift off - I'm pushed hard to the lef...
www.ctflier.com

www.flyingmag.com

Helicopter Rotor Wash Can Spoil All Your Plans

www.flyingmag.com www.flyingmag.com

This got my attention:
Unfortunately, there is no information provided by the FAA in the Aeronautical Information Manual

Other countries have issues warnings and guidance but not in the U.S. that I have seen:
www.rotorhub.com

ASTB publishes HLS rotor wash warning - RotorHub International

Prompted by a spate of helicopter rotor wash incidents at hospital Helicopter Landing Sites (HLS), the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) conducted a study into similar incidents over the preceding...
www.rotorhub.com www.rotorhub.com

I just really hope they start making people aware of the danger. You may not have enough aileron authority to right oneself if you get caught in disturbed air.
 
They have just as much right to the runway as you. They obviously don’t mind letting people know they are operating over the runway… they told you they were there when you made a traffic call. In regards to a NoRdo aircraft getting hosed by these guys I wouldn’t worry about it. The majority of aircraft flying without radios are doing so because they don’t have electrical systems. So I kinda doubt that guy is showing up at night.

The only thing you have said that would bug me is no lights. If they want to **** around with all the lights off they should be on a range somewhere, not hovering over the numbers of a public use airport. They can hover over that runway to their hearts content… with the lights on.
 
wetzelaviation said:
I really had a scare one day I departed long after a helicopter took off over the runway. When i hit the turbulence I didn’t have enough aileron to correct for the wake for a few seconds. I am gonna reach out to the FAA and local military base on Monday and see if I can get a solution. I think it’s great we are all sharing the airport, I am concerned at the volume of activity and am hoping they can put in an SOP to have the pilots of the helo warn incoming traffic for at least 10 mins after carrying out their operations. I think it would hopefully eliminate the issue of somebody incoming to the field slowing down to landing configuration having to deal with a surprise they weren’t expecting.

The more I research it the more i think it’s a good idea to warn the incoming traffic.

Thank you all for the suggestions and conversation. It really helped me as I was researching it.

I found a lot of video and articles on the subject and if it saves one life it will be worth my crying the sky is falling. Especially since it’s virtually free to warn people. It’s just an SOP change.

Some reference materials:

www.boldmethod.com

The Real Dangers Of Encountering Rotor Wash

Unfortunately, there is no information provided by the FAA in the Aeronautical Information Manual as to recommended separation criteria between light aircraft and helicopters for wake turbulence avoidance.
www.boldmethod.com www.boldmethod.com

www.aviationsafetymagazine.com

Rotor Wash - Aviation Safety

Dealing with prop wash or jet blast is relatively straightforward: It is directed behind the aircraft. Wingtip vortices are a bit more complicated, but still they are easy enough to visualize. Helicopter rotorwash can almost be seen as a hybrid blend of the two. A recent accident at a Colorado...
www.aviationsafetymagazine.com www.aviationsafetymagazine.com

Helicopter Rotor Wash on Takeoff

Thought I'd share a little video of a recent takeoff I had. Just another day, just another routine takeoff roll. Notice the helicopter on the taxiway, he turns and his rotor wash / engine exhaust wash create a nice wake turbulence over the active runway. As I lift off - I'm pushed hard to the lef...
www.ctflier.com

www.flyingmag.com

Helicopter Rotor Wash Can Spoil All Your Plans

www.flyingmag.com www.flyingmag.com

This got my attention:
Unfortunately, there is no information provided by the FAA in the Aeronautical Information Manual

Other countries have issues warnings and guidance but not in the U.S. that I have seen:
www.rotorhub.com

ASTB publishes HLS rotor wash warning - RotorHub International

Prompted by a spate of helicopter rotor wash incidents at hospital Helicopter Landing Sites (HLS), the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) conducted a study into similar incidents over the preceding...
www.rotorhub.com www.rotorhub.com

I just really hope they start making people aware of the danger. You may not have enough aileron authority to right oneself if you get caught in disturbed air.
Click to expand...
So you want warning broadcast for ten minutes after they are gone?

That’s unreasonable.
 
I could not imagine a situation where lights out ops at a public use airfield would be authorized. Flying NVG missions, IR lights and slime lights are utilized, but the landing light would be on at a minimum, albeit pointed down, then extended on short final.

While the OP referenced multiple videos for rotorwash risks, I’ve never been briefed nor briefed it as a significant risk. A 20k# UH60 is much different than the wake turbulence you’d get from a 250k# heavy. Every Army helicopter pilot knows they are responsible for their rotorwash. I flew Blackhawks for 26 years, your scenario and concerns are the first of its kind I’ve ever heard.
 
Heck even in combat there are restrictions on blacked out ops. Only unit I know of that does it on a regular basis is 160th. To do blacked out ops, even covert lighting (IR) at a public airport with no NOTAM and no comms would be flat out hazardous.

As far as training at a civ airport, well that’s a common thing for both FW and RW. A lot of times the military fields are inundated with traffic so you go to a public field to get away from all that. Need to fly friendly though. That means limiting pattern work over populated areas and flat pitch when FW turn final.
 
wetzelaviation said:
Wake turbulent and rotor wash can stick around ALOT longer than 30 seconds.

I’ve flown through an area 10 mins afterwards and had issues especially in a lightweight LSA.



Here is but one example:


I truly AM concerned because any accident that can be prevented should be.
Click to expand...
Your linked videos do not confirm your assertion. In the first video, I can't tell if there is turbulence. In the second and third, the airplanes cross the helicopter's path 10-15 seconds after the helo passes. Note that my suggestion was "30 seconds before you turn final", meaning any turbulence has something approaching a minute to dissipate.

In your original post, how long was the runway? If the helos were over the approach end, could you have landed long to avoid any issues?
 
If you’re at Hampton that could very well be Flight Concepts. Those boys pretty much do what they want.
 
Several of us were hanging out in a hangar sipping post flight beverages at SNC one night a couple of years ago when two Blackhawks landed on the runway right in front of us, line astern, all lights out. Some guys got out of the rear chopper which then took off, the guys ran around briefly doing something in the dark, then they got in the other machine and took off. Total time less than a minute, dunno if they were making radio calls.
 
donjohnston said:
What??? Oceana is closing?

Where are they going to move all the aircraft to?
Click to expand...
Yeah, they went on the chopping block during the last round of BRAC. They've been in the process of closing up shop for years. I forget when the last day of operations is but it's soon. Most, if not all of them are moving down to JAX. All those years of encroaching neighborhoods finally got their way. That and the awful OLF campaign back in the late 2000s when the Navy tried to justify taking over many thousands of acres of farmland to build a new "carrier landing practice" field. Even the strongest supporters of the military (including me) disagreed with that program. Good thing, too since now there'll be no need for it.
 
wetzelaviation said:
I still hear those engines firing up late into the night and I’m over here in Moyock.
Click to expand...
Well, you've got Blackwater...or whatever they call themselves these days right there in your backyard. Fantastic, professional operators but they definitely give zero f's.
 
wetzelaviation said:
Denying access to runways is a valid need for the military especially during VIP movements and similar activity. I just feel that the military should do the GA fleet a courtesy and let them know over the CTAF if this scenario occurs.
Click to expand...
You are way more tolerant than I would be, or maybe I'm missing something you can explain. I would be very upset if I needed to land at a public use airport and the military had closed the airport for "practice"; without a notam. Does the FAA have anything to say about this?
 
I’m not opposed to military training. Many years ago, I participated in a DEA exercise where I was a simulated target. A Blackhawk, vectored by a Citation, was following me to a remote airstrip; I was not supposed to know he was there. After I touched down and slowed, the Blackhawk landed in front of me; blocking any further movement on my part. However, they were very aware of their rotor wash and were kind enough not to flip me 182 over. Several well-armed individuals jumped out of the helicopter and had us assume the position. In hind sight, I guess we closed that airport for a while.
 
I think some are way overestimating how long downwash remains a factor. I worked around large helo’s many times. 30 seconds is not enough but 10 minutes is way to much. I personally use 3 minutes.
 
Jeff767 said:
I think some are way overestimating how long downwash remains a factor. I worked around large helo’s many times. 30 seconds is not enough but 10 minutes is way to much. I personally use 3 minutes.
Click to expand...
3 mins may be enough, I wanted to see peoples opinions on it but I’ll always err on the side of caution if unsure. I found everything from 3 mins to 10 mins (depending on wind and conditions).

3 mins may actually be long enough.
 
KE5BM said:
Yeah, they went on the chopping block during the last round of BRAC. They've been in the process of closing up shop for years. I forget when the last day of operations is but it's soon. Most, if not all of them are moving down to JAX. All those years of encroaching neighborhoods finally got their way. That and the awful OLF campaign back in the late 2000s when the Navy tried to justify taking over many thousands of acres of farmland to build a new "carrier landing practice" field. Even the strongest supporters of the military (including me) disagreed with that program. Good thing, too since now there'll be no need for it.
Click to expand...
I know that the last BRAC looked into closing Oceana and reopening Cecil but the City of Jacksonville wanted to keep Cecil civilian. So where in Jacksonville will Oceana move to?
 
Jeff767 said:
I think some are way overestimating how long downwash remains a factor. I worked around large helo’s many times. 30 seconds is not enough but 10 minutes is way to much. I personally use 3 minutes.
Click to expand...
Winds play into where the rotorwash drifts as well. Whenever we go into a civilian airfield, I am constantly looking to see where our rotorwash will blow and try to keep it away from GA aircraft. I agree that two to three minutes should be sufficient. I still remember the night we got rocked in a Chinook by a departing KC-10. It threw us 30 degrees nose low in an instant on climbout, and no wake turbulence warning from tower either.
 
KE5BM said:
Well, you've got Blackwater...or whatever they call themselves these days right there in your backyard. Fantastic, professional operators but they definitely give zero f's.
Click to expand...

They go by Academi now. Their heyday is long past, and they have largely evolved into static security. However, their range facility at Moyock is the best on the east coast, so the SEAL teams and MARSOC use it extensively.
 
KE5BM said:
Yeah, they went on the chopping block during the last round of BRAC. They've been in the process of closing up shop for years. I forget when the last day of operations is but it's soon. Most, if not all of them are moving down to JAX. All those years of encroaching neighborhoods finally got their way. That and the awful OLF campaign back in the late 2000s when the Navy tried to justify taking over many thousands of acres of farmland to build a new "carrier landing practice" field. Even the strongest supporters of the military (including me) disagreed with that program. Good thing, too since now there'll be no need for it.
Click to expand...
I just talked to a friend who works at Oceana. That was about 20 years ago there were talks about closing Oceana and moving the aircraft to Jacksonville. But that was if the city didn't buy up some land around the base to prevent development. He said that he has heard nothing about plans to close or reduce activity at Oceana. He also said that there are plans to allow commercial use of some areas of the base which are currently unused.
 
KE5BM said:
Yeah, they went on the chopping block during the last round of BRAC. They've been in the process of closing up shop for years. I forget when the last day of operations is but it's soon. Most, if not all of them are moving down to JAX….
Click to expand...
I was just at Oceana and the ramp was full of Hornets; after Cecil Field closed, it’s the only master jet base left on the east coast. I can’t see 4 CVWs, 17 squadrons, and SFWSLANT going anywhere else.

Last year, the Navy did solidify a joint use construct as the future of Oceana, but that didn’t include shuttering ops.

www.13newsnow.com

Navy launches 'Future Base Design' initiative at Oceana

Eventually, the public-private land-use program could encompass 1,100 acres of land on the Navy base.
www.13newsnow.com www.13newsnow.com

ETA: just confirmed from a currently serving dude who’d know that Oceana is not closing.
 
That's good to hear and I must have misunderstood what was being passed to us on the Coast Guard side. When I was leaving there right at two years ago, the annual airshow that is held there sounded like it was going to be their last. COVID wasn't to blame as they did a pretty good job of a televised airshow that I and my kids watched. We weren't able to go the following year but the crowds seemed quite large.

I wouldn't be surprised if Oceana comes up on BRAC again, though. For as long as I've been in the military, the surrounding community has been vocal about their disdain for jet noise. I've always been curious what the Hampton Roads area would look like if all the military had to up and leave.
 
I remember stories about signs “dogs and sailors keep off the grass”. And the CO of the Norfolk Naval Base doing a $10 payday where all the enlisted men got paid in $10 bills to show the community how much money goes into the area.

Probably an urban legend.

But most people know what the impact of oceana leaving would do to the area.
 
Oceana is not going anywhere. There is simply no place they could move the number of squadrons they host.
 
RockyMtnFlyer said:
You are way more tolerant than I would be, or maybe I'm missing something you can explain. I would be very upset if I needed to land at a public use airport and the military had closed the airport for "practice"; without a notam. Does the FAA have anything to say about this?
Click to expand...
I don’t know who it was honestly. The only light it had was a flashing red light, once they were over the runway the red light was cut and they hovered in place for quite a few mins. Then the beacon came back on and they departed.

I haven’t said anything to the FAA as I wasn't worried about getting anybody in trouble or causing an issue but simply worried about the wake turbulence created by the extended time hovering over the approach end of the runway. Just made me feel uneasy that somebody could be caught up in it and not have any idea that they had been there.
 
Well, now that doesn’t really sound like they were doing blacked out ops. If they were Army, minus a waiver (doubtful), they are required to have normal lighting in that setting. However, they are allowed to turn off the anti collision for safety purposes.

A lot of times when doing hover / slope work in a field they’ll turn it off because of the reflection under NVGs. They should still have nav / pos lights on and the anti collision comes on during the “before takeoff check.” I think these guys were just late on turning it on. No excuse for radio silence though.
 
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