Midfield - downwind

2nd505th

2nd505th

Pre-takeoff checklist
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2nd505th
I've been flying for a while but I've got a feeling I still have a lot to learn. So I'm VFR into KFIN, dropping thru clouds that by the time I got to FIN were ~1500 with one rain shaft that I nearly had to turn into. 1 aircraft on final to RWY11 and is the only other AC. I'm 7 southwest.
Controller: Report 3 miles Southwest
Me: Now 3 miles SW.
(I'm thinking I'll get make R-base - follow traffic on final as I'm perfect position for that)
Controller: Report mid-field for downwind.
(Me fighting dark clouds, rain, some stress now and wanting to obey head toward the airport for midfield. 5 secs later I know this is not going to work)
Me: Um, I got to make a 360 into the rain shaft to get behind the Cessna on final. You said report midfield.
Controller: Midfield does not necessarily mean that, it means get behind the other aircraft.
Me: Sure - I knew that.

Ok - I guess I never knew that and was really stressed after that.

Can someone explain how report middle of the field means something else. I'll except being humbled here.
 
Yeah, this doesn't make sense. Report midfield downwind means just that. But if you were reporting/heading to midfield, what does a Cessna on final have to do with anything?
 
Don't know if on liveatc. But that's all there was to it.
 
Was it “report midfield FOR downwind,” or “report midfield downwind”?
 
It does not mean something else. This just sounds like “one of those things”.

THIS is why flying is difficult. It requires a certain amount of being able to deal with this sort of thing, with precious little real experience.

You kept your head, your cool and stayed safe. Bravo!
 
So, I'm reading, and re-reading this, and maybe I'm now in the overthinking category.

Did you take "report midfield downwind" as an instruction to head straight to the tower?

Maybe a napkin-drawing would help?
 
For midfield, I always get either "report right midfield downwind for rwy 29" or "report left midfield downwind for rwy 29", depending on where I am coming from. I aim for the center of the Runway.

Sounds more like you scud running crappy conditions was the problem than ATC.

Edit, it is confusing, but it sounds like there were multiple aircraft in or coming into the pattern.
 
I'm wondering if he actually said "cross midfield for a left downwind for 11"
 
eman1200 said:
I'm wondering if he actually said "cross midfield for a left downwind for 11"
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He probably said cross midfield and do a teardrop to enter the 45 for left downwind 11 if I had to guess, since, you know, that’s the AIM recommendation and it would be pretty crazy to do anything else.
 
2nd505th said:
At this point in my memory could have been either. What's the difference?
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Report midfield downwind mean however and wherever you enter the pattern, let me know when you’re on midfield downwind.

Report midfield FOR downwind would imply that you shouldn’t be on the downwind yet.

I would assume the former, in which he probably also told you who to sequence behind, and you’d do whatever you needed to accomplish that.
 
The tower here at Gulf Shores frequently uses “report midfield down wind for a left down wind runway 9” when coming from the north west.

It’s something I’ve never seen much, but is common here. Nearly ALWAYS trips up someone new to here, experienced and student alike.

I’ve been teaching head straight to the upwind numbers to give some turning room to get on down wind by midfield.
 
There wasn't any cross midfield instructions, teardrop anything - positive on that. I was in a perfect position for a right base, 3 miles out 1100 feet. Heading to the airfield would be dumb. The controller agreed but also later said the head midfield meant getting behind the other aircraft now a mile or so out. But for those few seconds I was very confused and started heading to the middle of the airfield to comply and get to the middle of rwy 11 (midfield) and then somehow turn downwind which was not going to work. At that point the only way I can think to get out of this is to turn a right 360. I basically told the controller this is what I'm doing and they went along with it. I then went right base then final.
 
Tools said:
The tower here at Gulf Shores frequently uses “report midfield down wind for a left down wind runway 9” when coming from the north west.

It’s something I’ve never seen much, but is common here. Nearly ALWAYS trips up someone new to here, experienced and student alike.

I’ve been teaching head straight to the upwind numbers to give some turning room to get on down wind by midfield.
Click to expand...

Yes. I'm new to KFIN. They do say things a little different than what I'm used to.
 
sounds like you know what you're doing. those pesky tower peeps, psshhhhh.......
 
2nd505th said:
Yes. I'm new to KFIN. They do say things a little different than what I'm used to.
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But in your example "report midfield" would mean fly to middle of RWY 9 would it not? In my case I was already in what you would call downwind except coming from the southwest.
 
I talked to my wife about this and said I may just do a pop-up IFR anytime I need to land ant KFIN. Then I'll be right down final.
 
Not too long ago, ~3 miles NE of LZU, I received the report left midfield downwind for 7 instruction. I was a little confused too at first. If I remember correctly, the controller had both left and right simultaneous downwind traffic. The next instruction was he'd call my base. I think he might have momentarily forgotten about me b/c it was an awful long downwind. Winds were about 15-20 that day so my final took forever. I remember the controller apologizing to someone holding short.
 
2nd505th said:
I've been flying for a while but I've got a feeling I still have a lot to learn. So I'm VFR into KFIN, dropping thru clouds that by the time I got to FIN were ~1500 with one rain shaft that I nearly had to turn into. 1 aircraft on final to RWY11 and is the only other AC. I'm 7 southwest.
Controller: Report 3 miles Southwest
Me: Now 3 miles SW.
(I'm thinking I'll get make R-base - follow traffic on final as I'm perfect position for that)
Controller: Report mid-field for downwind.
(Me fighting dark clouds, rain, some stress now and wanting to obey head toward the airport for midfield. 5 secs later I know this is not going to work)
Me: Um, I got to make a 360 into the rain shaft to get behind the Cessna on final. You said report midfield.
Controller: Midfield does not necessarily mean that, it means get behind the other aircraft.
Me: Sure - I knew that.

Ok - I guess I never knew that and was really stressed after that.

Can someone explain how report middle of the field means something else. I'll except being humbled here.
Click to expand...

KFIN is on LiveATC. Tell us the date and time. Your explanation doesn't make a lot of sense.

https://www.liveatc.net/archive.php?m=kfin

BTW- if you were "dropping thru clouds" how were you still VFR? You mean descending though a scattered cloud layer?
 
RyanB said:
He probably said cross midfield and do a teardrop to enter the 45 for left downwind 11 if I had to guess, since, you know, that’s the AIM recommendation and it would be pretty crazy to do anything else.
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I can see it now:

FAA ASI: ‘why did you fly through the clouds when your were VFR?’

Pilot: ‘because the AIM and my CFI told me to only ever make standard pattern entries…’
 
Midfield isn’t final and obviously downwind isn’t final either. Poor instruction if that’s what the controller wanted.

If the controller wanted you on a straight in, they should’ve instructed you on your 7 mile call “make straight in runway 11” Then at your 3 mile call, “not in sight, follow the Cessna on 1 mile final, runway 11 cleared to land number two.” Or “continue, report 1 mile final runway 11.”

“report midfield for downwind” has nothing to do with going to final and following the Cessna.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I can see it now:

FAA ASI: ‘why did you fly through the clouds when your were VFR?’

Pilot: ‘because the AIM and my CFI told me to only ever make standard pattern entries…’
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Nope - not even close. Not thru the clouds but between.
 
If a base made more sense you could've just asked, but it hasn't worked for me in a while. I fly into a busy delta, and usually if I ask for a base instead of the instructed downwind, they'll just tell me they can't because of traffic. Usually what I'll do is maneuver to get aligned with the midfield a couple miles out then fly in. They are generally on top of the traffic and will give me a base if it opens up.

Last time I flew in there, about 2 weeks ago, I called, they didn't answer me. Turns out he had 8 in the pattern, and about 5 trying to get out. I had to do 2 360s outside of the delta, finally he cleared me in. Twas a ****e show, but he did pretty well.
 
@Mahneuvers what ATC response were you expecting? That seems like the perfect setup to me, or are you saying you were too close?

@2nd505th i see more. Already set up sort of on the right base. Maybe ATC needed spacing or forgot where you were or simply messed up with midfield downwind.

I'd hold out you can always ask for what you want.
"We're actually aligned to join a right base behind Cessna blah blah from here, would that work?" "Can we get a right base entry instead?" Maybe they say unable for spacing or whatever.
 
2nd505th said:
Yes. I'm new to KFIN. They do say things a little different than what I'm used to.
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Can't disagree here. I've heard some less than clear directions from tower at KFIN
 
KFIN is my home base. If I was SW, 11 was the active and got the three mile report, I'd aim at the tower and let them know three miles out. They would then give me a right downwind for 11. They want to sequence you in and that's easier if they have you in sight. No radar at FIN. Alternatively you could have gone to the north, outside the D and lined up for a straight in at 7 to 10 miles out and they would have given you a straight in with a report 4 miles out. They rarely give you a base join, unless there's no one else in the pattern. They are pretty good, but they get loaded up with ERAU and other schools doing T&G's and it's hard to get you in the pattern in anything other than a midfield downwind or a straight in.
They will never have you cross midfield. They often have both left and right closed traffic.
 
I guess I don't mind kicking a dead horse, so here's my take:

  1. There is a guy on final to 11, which would put him NW of the field by some amount.
  2. You are SW of the field, inbound.
  3. At 3 miles out you are asked to report midfield downwind. It's safe to assume he wants a right downwind, but you could always ask.
  4. You are NOT in the pattern at this point. You are NOT already on downwind. You are three miles out, inbound.
  5. At this point you should aim for the center of the runway, or as someone suggested maybe aim for the departure end to allow for your downwind turn
  6. When you get close enough for your turn downwind (1 mile to 1/2 mile from the runway), make your turn and report "...midfield turning downwind" or just "midfield downwind"
Is there ANY other way to interpret this?

"Me: Um, I got to make a 360 into the rain shaft to get behind the Cessna on final." I cannot visualize what the OP is talking about here. From what he described, he shouldn't be in any position to get in front of the traffic on final - Maybe his downwind was going to take him directly into a rain shaft. In that case either get a wash, or let the controller know you need to deviate and make it clear what you are doing.

"In my case I was already in what you would call downwind except coming from the southwest." -- What does that even mean? I was already in a downwind, except that I wasn't, I was actually 3 miles to the southwest, inbound?

Whoops! I just realized this is in the Pilot Training thread. I stand by my take, but I hope the OP doesn't take offense. This looks like maybe a lack of understanding of what to expect when approaching a towered field, and maybe a slight lack of understanding of when you are in the pattern and when you are outside the pattern approaching the airport. Add to that the stress of dark clouds and showers in the vicinity... The most important thing is to stay safe.
 
pburger said:
  1. At 3 miles out you are asked to report midfield downwind. It's safe to assume he wants a right downwind, but you could always ask.
  2. You are NOT in the pattern at this point. You are NOT already on downwind. You are three miles out, inbound.
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They would have said "Report 3 miles SW for a right downwind 11" They want you report 3 SW - then they will sequence you into the downwind at that point. The Right Downwind is an "expect", not a join. You would not be turning downwind 3 miles out.
 
2nd505th said:
Me: Um, I got to make a 360 into the rain shaft to get behind the Cessna on final.
Click to expand...

Rainshaft or not, a 360 degree turn will result in you ending up in the same place you started. How did you deem it necessary to do a 360 in order to get to the downwind? :confused2:
 
2nd505th said:
But in your example "report midfield" would mean fly to middle of RWY 9 would it not? In my case I was already in what you would call downwind except coming from the southwest.
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No, it means enter a downwind for RWY 11 and let him know when you're around midfield on that downwind. And he doesn't care how you get there. If you have to zigzag around clouds or showers, do that.

ETA: If you were 3 miles SW of the airport and landing RWY 11, you weren't on what I would call downwind. Downwind is flown parallel to the runway in the direction opposite to landing. So for runway 11, that would be a heading of 290* If you were SW heading towards the airport, you would have been heading something like 45*.
 
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Hang 4 said:
They would have said "Report 3 miles SW for a right downwind 11" They want you report 3 SW - then they will sequence you into the downwind at that point. The Right Downwind is an "expect", not a join. You would not be turning downwind 3 miles out.
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I read it as follows:
1. he was asked to report 3 southwest
2. he reported 3 southwest
3. he was asked to report midfield downwind

I'm not sure if you were agreeing with my take, or thought that I didn't understand what "report midfield downwind" means.

My comment was that they obviously want a RIGHT downwind as opposed to a left. I wasn't saying he should turn at that moment. He's still 3 miles out. That was kind of the whole point of my take.
 
There’s no assuming a right downwind. Tower must assign “right” in the instruction. If given an instruction to enter the downwind without a direction, then left is the default direction.
 
Velocity173 said:
There’s no assuming a right downwind. Tower must assign “right” in the instruction. If given an instruction to enter the downwind without a direction, then left is the default direction.
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That's only if you believe the OP's recall of the tower's instructions are accurate. It did not say right downwind, but it also did not say downwind for which runway. There are four of them.
 
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