MidAir at Centennial Airport Cirrus and Metroliner

PeterNSteinmetz said:
Very unfortunate modern trend. Or taking a video of a mass murderer shooting at people in a nightclub instead of grabbing everything nearby and throwing at him and rushing him while he is distracted.
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Fighting a shooter is not smart. For a shooting, we teach people to run, hide, or fight, in that order. When you reach the fight stage you should have no other options. You fight as if you don't win, you'll die... because you will. The 'fight the shooter' mentality comes from action movies.

No, they shouldn't stick around and take videos either, but this comes with everyone having a smart phone. That part I'll agree is a modern trend!
 
PaulS said:
If you look at the flight track, I don't recall the exact numbers, but the Cirrus was doing like 158kts on downwind, he turned base and his airspeed jumped to 175 or more, I'm trying to figure out how that happened. I'm wondering if there was a crosswind up there, causing him to track faster over the ground after the turn and he didn't notice it because he was looking for traffic. Regardless, he was going too fast, but this may have been SOP for him and he just got bit by the wind. If it's not the wind, then the only other explanation is that he went from a pretty high power setting for the pattern to an even higher one on base. There are some things not making sense here.
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...or he was descending. He goes up to

The Flightaware track is here. He reaches high speed while still northbound on on downwind. The big increase after that is accompanied by an almost 1,000 fpm descent.
 
Lowflynjack said:
For a shooting, we teach people to run, hide, or fight, in that order.
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Definitely the right order in a normal attack. But when trapped in a nightclub with the attacker walking around looking for people to shoot, I suspect the time has come to fight. Really no other choice other than sitting around to become a sitting duck. I think it might also be different when there is a large group to confront a single attacker. Same analysis applies to the murderer in the theater in Colorado.

Of course, it is also true that one can't really know unless one was there - Monday morning quarter-backing and all. But yes, certainly don't stand around taking cell phone videos!
 
Lowflynjack said:
No, they shouldn't stick around and take videos either, but this comes with everyone having a smart phone. That part I'll agree is a modern trend!
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I'll agree that taking videos is a modern trend, but standing there, gawking and not getting involved, is a grand old human tradition. The vast majority of humans have no experience with what might be bloody, catastrophic scenes, and there's going to be a reluctance to get involved with them. It ain't the phone's fault.

Ron Wanttaja
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Definitely the right order in a normal attack. But when trapped in a nightclub with the attacker walking around looking for people to shoot, I suspect the time has come to fight. Really no other choice other than sitting around to become a sitting duck. I think it might also be different when there is a large group to confront a single attacker. Same analysis applies to the murderer in the theater in Colorado.
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But in your scenario, run/hide/fight would still apply. If you are trapped, there is no running, and hiding in a nightclub might be problematic. So then there is fight. Getting a large group of strangers to act as one to confront an attacker when running and hiding are still options would also seem improbable.

Looking at the photos, I remember Key Lime, I see the Norelco building in the background, and I realize that I was based there for 30 years, so the scene is very familiar.
 
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Not sure he's suggesting you need to coordinate people, just commenting that if you could, you have a better chance of success.

Given a random distribution, there are probably at least 10-20% of service minded people who are ready to fight together. These are our vets, police, fire, etc, people who put others over themselves (service minded). Those percentages don't hold true if you're taking about a specific situation, the distribution is different for different demographics.
 
wanttaja said:
I'll agree that taking videos is a modern trend, but standing there, gawking and not getting involved, is a grand old human tradition. The vast majority of humans have no experience with what might be bloody, catastrophic scenes, and there's going to be a reluctance to get involved with them. It ain't the phone's fault.

Ron Wanttaja
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In the defense of the guy who took the video, he may not have known that this was a critical emergency. He might have assumed it was a parachute jumper and then was surprised to see an airplane coming down. Additionally, this was at an airport, not some deserted wilderness, so a casual spectator is more likely to get in the way rather than provide real emergency assistance. Finally, the spectator videos do come in very useful in the accident analysis.
 
wanttaja said:
I'll agree that taking videos is a modern trend, but standing there, gawking and not getting involved, is a grand old human tradition. The vast majority of humans have no experience with what might be bloody, catastrophic scenes, and there's going to be a reluctance to get involved with them. It ain't the phone's fault.

Ron Wanttaja
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Agreed, but I’d also say there is a big difference between someone not getting involved because they are in shock and/or don’t know what to do, and someone not getting involved because they believe they’ll “go viral” with their video. The former is excusable, the latter is not.
 
denverpilot said:
Of course... LOL...
8c48fb1bfde724da5e21f4256b5e684b.jpg
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Holding head in shame. :( How come no one here thoughta this first. Who are these Aviators Lounge guys anyway?
 
On his Blancolirio YT channel, Juan Brown raises two questions I’m following:
  1. When the Cirrus driver was advised of both traffic targets and he acknowledged, was he acknowledging eyes on the Cessna ahead of him, or the Cessna and the Metroliner?
  2. Did the Cirrus driver experience confusion and lined up on wrong runway? Juan mentions the airliner crew practice of backing up visual approaches with ILS or RNAV guidance, but that this wasn’t available for 17R.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
perhaps his wife liked a key lime pilot…
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Lol. My sons a fire fighter. Got his little red helmet sticker on the rear window. Gets pulled over for speeding by the CHP. He says something along the line of howabout a little professional courtesy here. Cop says my wife ran off with one of you guys. Sign here
 
AggieMike88 said:
On his Blancolirio YT channel, Juan Brown raises two questions I’m following:
  1. When the Cirrus driver was advised of both traffic targets and he acknowledged, was he acknowledging eyes on the Cessna ahead of him, or the Cessna and the Metroliner?
  2. Did the Cirrus driver experience confusion and lined up on wrong runway? Juan mentions the airliner crew practice of backing up visual approaches with ILS or RNAV guidance, but that this wasn’t available for 17R.
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Centennial Air Park? Oh yeah, just a sleepy little community with airplane addictions. I know it was a mis-speak, but still struck me as funny.
 
AggieMike88 said:
On his Blancolirio YT channel, Juan Brown raises two questions I’m following:
  1. When the Cirrus driver was advised of both traffic targets and he acknowledged, was he acknowledging eyes on the Cessna ahead of him, or the Cessna and the Metroliner?
  2. Did the Cirrus driver experience confusion and lined up on wrong runway? Juan mentions the airliner crew practice of backing up visual approaches with ILS or RNAV guidance, but that this wasn’t available for 17R.
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He says it’s unclear based on the ATC audio if the pilot saw the Metroliner. It is clear based on the audio that the pilot reported the “additional traffic (Metroliner)” in sight. Now, whether or not he saw the Metroliner or not is in question. If he didn’t, he should never had said traffic in sight for the second time.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Fighting a shooter is not smart. For a shooting, we teach people to run, hide, or fight, in that order. When you reach the fight stage you should have no other options. You fight as if you don't win, you'll die... because you will. The 'fight the shooter' mentality comes from action movies.

No, they shouldn't stick around and take videos either, but this comes with everyone having a smart phone. That part I'll agree is a modern trend!
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Just one caveat. If armed and properly trained I would expect fight to be higher on the list.
 
gkainz said:
Centennial Air Park? Oh yeah, just a sleepy little community with airplane addictions. I know it was a mis-speak, but still struck me as funny.
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2nd or 3rd busiest airport (depending on the year) in the US that isn’t Class B. And at times, busier than some Class B.
 
sarangan said:
In the defense of the guy who took the video, he may not have known that this was a critical emergency. He might have assumed it was a parachute jumper and then was surprised to see an airplane coming down. Additionally, this was at an airport, not some deserted wilderness, so a casual spectator is more likely to get in the way rather than provide real emergency assistance. Finally, the spectator videos do come in very useful in the accident analysis.
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My gut is that that video is from far enough away that it would've taken the video guy a good bit of running to make any difference. Back in 2003 - what seems a long time ago - I saw a fatal crash in New Braunfels. I did actually run, as did some others, and it seemed so close but took so long to run, as to have to slow to catch my breath once (and I was a regular runner at the time), and still was the second person to the scene, and then did a double take as I saw gas pouring out of the wings - hoping the whole thing wasn't about to blow. I'd like to think I'd do the same again, but it isn't as easy to do as it might seem.
 
Salty said:
So is the chute save cancelled out by the “cirrus pilot” factor?
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DavidWhite said:
A cirrus pilot didn’t know what he was doing and ran someone over? I am *shocked*
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Four pages, photos, videos and no one has figured it out yet? The Cirrus didn't get the "10 mile straight in final" ... we can close the thread now ;):p
 
wanttaja said:
I'll agree that taking videos is a modern trend, but standing there, gawking and not getting involved, is a grand old human tradition. The vast majority of humans have no experience with what might be bloody, catastrophic scenes, and there's going to be a reluctance to get involved with them. It ain't the phone's fault.
Click to expand...

That's right. I think there is some research on this. And it may be related to group size. In really large groups, everyone assumes someone else is taking care of the problem.
 
Looks like the Cirrus may have been a rental at Independence Aviation -- not that it matters, but just information.
https://flywithia.com/n416dj-details

As an aside, I had no idea it cost that much to rent a Cirrus -- they have an SR22 for $440/hour dry! I guess I will stick to 172s and Cherokees.
 
ColoPilot said:
Looks like the Cirrus may have been a rental at Independence Aviation -- not that it matters, but just information.
https://flywithia.com/n416dj-details

As an aside, I had no idea it cost that much to rent a Cirrus -- they have an SR22 for $440/hour dry! I guess I will stick to 172s and Cherokees.
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That’s insane. I rent a 2007 SR22 G3 turbo normalized for 370 wet and think that’s high.
 
ColoPilot said:
Looks like the Cirrus may have been a rental at Independence Aviation -- not that it matters, but just information.
https://flywithia.com/n416dj-details

As an aside, I had no idea it cost that much to rent a Cirrus -- they have an SR22 for $440/hour dry! I guess I will stick to 172s and Cherokees.
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Updated Cirrus Rates from the local Cirrus Training Center (All Dry) & you have to buy fuel through them (at a $2.00/gal upcharge)
325 - G6 SR20
375 - G5 SR22
425 - G6 SR22
475 - G6 SR22T
 
ColoPilot said:
Looks like the Cirrus may have been a rental at Independence Aviation -- not that it matters, but just information.
https://flywithia.com/n416dj-details

As an aside, I had no idea it cost that much to rent a Cirrus -- they have an SR22 for $440/hour dry! I guess I will stick to 172s and Cherokees.
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Yeah, that does seem high. My club has a turbo SR22 for $395 wet, and there are not many areas with higher cost of living than here.

http://www.wvfc.org/a/wvfc.org/template-2/aircraft/n5ev
 
PaulS said:
If you look at the flight track, I don't recall the exact numbers, but the Cirrus was doing like 158kts on downwind, he turned base and his airspeed jumped to 175 or more, I'm trying to figure out how that happened. I'm wondering if there was a crosswind up there, causing him to track faster over the ground after the turn and he didn't notice it because he was looking for traffic. Regardless, he was going too fast, but this may have been SOP for him and he just got bit by the wind. If it's not the wind, then the only other explanation is that he went from a pretty high power setting for the pattern to an even higher one on base. There are some things not making sense here.
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What did the altitude do when the airspeed increased, That may have just increased because he was pushing the nose down without pulling back on the throttle.

Remember people that this is a 6000' field elevation. In most the knob goes to the firewall on takeoff and stays there until roughly abeam the numbers. He might have forgotten to take the power off.
 
ColoPilot said:
Looks like the Cirrus may have been a rental at Independence Aviation -- not that it matters, but just information.
https://flywithia.com/n416dj-details

As an aside, I had no idea it cost that much to rent a Cirrus -- they have an SR22 for $440/hour dry! I guess I will stick to 172s and Cherokees.
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Like other vocations starting with F, you're paying to return the thing after use. :D
 
flyingron said:
What did the altitude do when the airspeed increased, That may have just increased because he was pushing the nose down without pulling back on the throttle.

Remember people that this is a 6000' field elevation. In most the knob goes to the firewall on takeoff and stays there until roughly abeam the numbers. He might have forgotten to take the power off.
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In the pattern he should be at 30% power, after the numbers on downwind he should have been at 15%. Pretty sure the NA 22 makes 78% power at 8000 feet on a standard day, I guess being wide open could explain it, but I doubt he was. That acceleration could be due to the descent with no flaps.

I think this was a G5 and a rental. The nice thing about these planes is they can record most flight data if a card is in place to log the data. Being a rental, the card is probably there so hopefully we'll get some answers. Being that fast in the situation he was in was not smart. It will be interesting to see how much time he has in the plane.
 
Everybody’s amazed the key lime held together, am I the only one shocked that a cirrus could take that big a bite out of it without killing the pilot?
 
RKW said:
Updated Cirrus Rates from the local Cirrus Training Center (All Dry) & you have to buy fuel through them (at a $2.00/gal upcharge)
325 - G6 SR20
375 - G5 SR22
425 - G6 SR22
475 - G6 SR22T
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That's downright bananas

Around here SR22NA run around $300 to $330 wet. The turbo G5 is a little higher at 350 and that's dry.

The DA62 up the coast though, that's something else. Last I checked that was $600 hr / dry
 
Tantalum said:
That's downright bananas

Around here SR22NA run around $300 to $330 wet. The turbo G5 is a little higher at 350 and that's dry.

The DA62 up the coast though, that's something else. Last I checked that was $600 hr / dry
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SR22 NA G6 $450 wet, was $395 until January. Still cheaper than owning, at least for me.
 
I would have never thought that you could not only remove, but VIOLENTLY remove half of the fuselage aft of the wing and still have the empennage stay intact. Sounds like the Metro pilot didn't really grasp the amount of damage he was dealing with.

Tower was all like, "hey pal, you... you need some help on the runway there? We've got equipment headed your way..."

"Naw, I'm good... just gonna taxi to the FBO, mebbe see what's happening with this engine here. Hey, crazy about that Cirrus driver that just deployed the chute back there, eh? Whew."

Tower: "Uh... y... yeah."

[note: not actual quotes.... but that's absolutely the vibe I got from the LiveATC]
 
Salty said:
Everybody’s amazed the key lime held together, am I the only one shocked that a cirrus could take that big a bite out of it without killing the pilot?
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I'm not shocked at all, I'm thinking the landing gear did all that damage, a foot lower and everyone would be dead. There is a a lot of kinetic energy in the Cirrus going 160+ knots relative to the Metroliner and that aluminum is thin.

I think most don't appreciate that size difference really doesn't make a difference in situations like this. I have a couple jet skis that I ride when the weather is good around here. I'm always amazed at some of the doofuses in their big boats who go out of their way to cut me off while flipping me the finger. They are easy to spot so I give them wide berth, but there are a lot of people on jet skis who are clueless too. While the jet ski obviously loses in a collision with a bigger boat, if the 800 pound jet ski is going 50 mph at impact with a boat, it will go right through the boat, probably barely slowing down, killing anyone in it's path. (I'm talking fiberglass 30 foot sized boat here).
 
schmookeeg said:
Post #1 is from pasting a facebook page link as an image. It's broken for me too on my devices.

If @skyking3286 wants to edit it, it would mean editing the post and changing this:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10225423630237118&set=p.10225423630237118&type=3

to this:

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.ne...=003d42ea8ffaec9eede272beb5785a01&oe=60C21613

For those with FOMO on post #1, the image is this one. :)

#3 seems tapatalk-specific and was what I wanted to track down, thanks all. :)

(back to armchair midair analysis... sorry for the detour :D )
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Thanks....It's just the first photo for the accident.... not a issue. Look at it and be amazed how we can't cross post easily on the board.
 
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