Mid-Air at Winter Haven

tsts4 said:
I wish I had a dollar for every time that ATC called out traffic, we had them on ADS-B but still never saw them — with 2 of us looking. I like having ADS-B but it’s not a panacea IMO. If it could issue an RA like TCAS, maybe it would be more useful.
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It's another tool in the toolbox. Use it accordingly and knowing it's limitations.
 
RyanShort1 said:
150% on this.

I WANT a portable squawking 1200 VFR option for the Luscombe.

Also, it was noted above that there might be reason to believe that the Warrior might have been "in the sun" for the Cub... which actually makes sense as the NTSB seemed to indicate that the Cub made a late evasive action. A yellow Cub with white floats that's well lit up should have been a relatively easy spot, so it makes me a little annoyed at how many people in this thread are more upset at the Cub. I think the blame is equal, but it is always harder to spot things into the sun.
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I think the blame is equal as far as the see and avoid argument. Maybe the warrior was looking and didn't see the cub. It can happen and that's the problem with see and avoid. Maybe they weren't looking at all. I doubt we'll ever know. But I was taught very early on "safe" places to fly near an airport. Pattern altitude near what could be an active runway was not one of them
 
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If they both had ASAB and were talking to a tower, it would be a lot easier to figure out who did what - like in this example

midwestpa24 said:
I haven't looked myself, but what I am seeing elsewhere is the controller for Runway 17R is a different frequency, but on that recording you can hear the controller called the Cirrus's overshoot of their turn just prior to the collision. Even looking at the Flightaware track it seems they were way too wide on their base to final turn.

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?ica...6&lon=-104.859&zoom=12.2&showTrace=2021-05-12

This historical track shows both aircraft. Looks pretty obvious what happened.
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https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...tennial-airport-cirrus-and-metroliner.132133/
 
cowman said:
It seems to me that the root cause was two traffic patterns operating in close proximity with the lack of radio communication being a significant contributing factor.

I can't believe we can't come up with some kind of a simple battery operated ads-b out gadget for these situations though. Of course we should be looking out the window but come on- how many times have you know exactly where to look for nearby traffic due to a radio call/ads-b/ATC callout and STILL not be able to see it for a long while? I get not wanting to be reliant on ads-b traffic but I have to think anyone who says it isn't a huge help must not have used it before.
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I know nothing of Winterhaven other than what I was introduced to via this discussion thread and what I have subsequently learned through Foreflight.

While the J-3 had no legal requirement for either ADSB or radios, the immediate proximity of a towerless airport used by at least two flight training schools adjacent to a seaplane training facility would seem to a neutral observer like a disaster waiting to happen. A bunch of trainers and student pilots flying patterns around a towerless airport sharing airspace with a fleet of radio-less, adsb-less low performance float planes taking off from a float plane base 600 feet from the threshold of Runway 11 is madness.

I’m surprised there haven’t been more accidents. If I were the owner of Jack Brown’s, my J-3s would have ADSB and a radio regardless of the regs. But that’s me. We spend most of our flying careers/hobby lives learning and hopefully practicing safety. I’d find it hard to believe that anyone looking at this could think that this was a safe flying environment.
 
Nick Geber said:
I know nothing of Winterhaven other than what I was introduced to via this discussion thread and what I have subsequently learned through Foreflight.

While the J-3 had no legal requirement for either ADSB or radios, the immediate proximity of a towerless airport used by at least two flight training schools adjacent to a seaplane training facility would seem to a neutral observer like a disaster waiting to happen. A bunch of trainers and student pilots flying patterns around a towerless airport sharing airspace with a fleet of radio-less, adsb-less low performance float planes taking off from a float plane base 600 feet from the threshold of Runway 11 is madness.

I’m surprised there haven’t been more accidents. If I were the owner of Jack Brown’s, my J-3s would have ADSB and a radio regardless of the regs. But that’s me. We spend most of our flying careers/hobby lives learning and hopefully practicing safety. I’d find it hard to believe that anyone looking at this could think that this was a safe flying environment.
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Heh. As bad as it is, and it is bad, Winter haven is a haven of safety compared to kzph. Gliders, trikes, gyros, banner tow operations, and skydivers going every which way at every conceivable altitude.
 
Nick Geber said:
I know nothing of Winterhaven other than what I was introduced to via this discussion thread and what I have subsequently learned through Foreflight.

While the J-3 had no legal requirement for either ADSB or radios, the immediate proximity of a towerless airport used by at least two flight training schools adjacent to a seaplane training facility would seem to a neutral observer like a disaster waiting to happen. A bunch of trainers and student pilots flying patterns around a towerless airport sharing airspace with a fleet of radio-less, adsb-less low performance float planes taking off from a float plane base 600 feet from the threshold of Runway 11 is madness.

I’m surprised there haven’t been more accidents. If I were the owner of Jack Brown’s, my J-3s would have ADSB and a radio regardless of the regs. But that’s me. We spend most of our flying careers/hobby lives learning and hopefully practicing safety. I’d find it hard to believe that anyone looking at this could think that this was a safe flying environment.
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I don't necessarily disagree with you, but this area didn't get this busy over night. Winter Haven has been getting busier over the past 20 years or so, and gradual changes are harder to react to. This is why a lot of the automated systems in the big jets (during landing) will alarm if certain criteria cross specific levels of deviation: Because the pilots won't notice a gradual change.

I hope that Browns can continue to operate but I hope they can do so in a way more cognizant of the area in which they fly.
 
I’m a fan of any tool that offers additional situational awareness, ADSB being one of them. That said, I’m not sure how useful it would be given the amount of traffic utilizing two separate facilities that are right next to each other. With only one pattern in play a quick glance gives you everything you need supplemented by radio calls.

Here we have two patterns and one likely without radios. I’ve never flown there but I can’t imagine a quick glance at a screen would give a real good mental picture, especially if half the traffic is NORDO.
 
Half Fast said:
Of course. However,...

My corrected distance vision is a bit better than 20/20. Despite that, ADSB-In has demonstrated to me just how difficult other planes are to see, even when I know their bearing from me, their altitude, and their track. And what makes that scarier still is that our eyes are good at picking up motion, but a plane on a collision course will appear motionless, so I'm even less likely to see the ones that are a real threat.
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Me too. But it's also reaffirmed that I really don't care about traffic that's two miles or even half a mile away.
 
Lindberg said:
If we're head on at that distance, I don't need ADSB to see him.
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I do....L...20/20 in both eyes...

Course I havent been doing this very long , or even claim to be good at it I like knowing about traffic two miles away.. Being in a plane, you are basically in the center of a spear when it comes to directions you can be struck from....with the majority being at angles you cant see.
 
Racerx said:
No wonder the media fails at airplane ID "Cherokee Piper 161". The NTSB doesn't help and continually calls it a Cherokee. Close enough.
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The model is properly the "Cherokee Warrior" on the type certificate. I can't get worked up calling any PA-28 model a Cherokee.
 
Racerx said:
I think the blame is equal as far as the see and avoid argument. Maybe the warrior was looking and didn't see the cub. It can happen and that's the problem with see and avoid. Maybe they weren't looking at all. I doubt we'll ever know. But I was taught very early on "safe" places to fly near an airport. Pattern altitude near what could be an active runway was not one of them
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maybe the cub should have been at 500’ per their SOP to provide altitude deconfliction.

 
texasclouds said:
You remember that Keylime Air plane that got side swiped in the pattern by a Cirrus? Both had radios. There still will be accidents, and you cannot mandate or regulate a perfect world.
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That's correct, but I'm all for edging my bets in the interest of better odds...
 
jsstevens said:
I just got my seaplane rating in January so I’m far from an expert but we never got above 700’ and that was going lake to lake. Pattern altitude for us was 500’. (Not at Jack Browns.)

why would the cub have been that high? (Unless going g further cross country.)
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As we learn more, this appears to be the most relevant question. SOP at Jack Brown is reported to be to take off from Lake Jessie, follow the canals through Lake Idylwild to Lake Hardridge at 500' until clear of the pattern at Winter Haven Regional. Landing is reverse, a 500' approach starting north of Winter Haven Airport and following the canals back to land on Lake Jessie.

If this is the actual SOP that has worked for decades, someone got sloppy or lazy and 3 others paid the price.
 
Just found out one of the casualties was from my neck of the woods. RIP.

"The Fredericksburg (Texas) aviation community lost a wonderful man to a mid-air collision Winter Haven, Florida on Tuesday. Lou DeFazio was a decorated USAF pilot who served our country flying F-4 Phantoms in Vietnam. As an Army Reservist, he flew. MedEvac helicopters in Operation Desert Storm and later as a commercial pilot for Continental Airlines.

In recent years, he and wife Fran split time between their home in Fredericksburg where he was a CFI at Crosswind Aviation and Winter Haven as an instructor at Jack Brown's Seaplane Base.

Funeral arrangements are pending. A condolence book will be available at the Fredericksburg FBO beginning Thursday afternoon and a a memorial service will be held at Gillespie County Airport later this spring."

Back to your regularly scheduled POA banter.......
 
bflynn said:
As we learn more, this appears to be the most relevant question. SOP at Jack Brown is reported to be to take off from Lake Jessie, follow the canals through Lake Idylwild to Lake Hardridge at 500' until clear of the pattern at Winter Haven Regional. Landing is reverse, a 500' approach starting north of Winter Haven Airport and following the canals back to land on Lake Jessie.

If this is the actual SOP that has worked for decades, someone got sloppy or lazy and 3 others paid the price.
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Check out @Half Fast post 87. Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it appears the new owner wanted an increased pattern altitude of 1000'. Also in the AOPA video they said they set altimeter to zero at Jack Brown's despite kgif being 140'msl. No idea how accurate that statement is
 
Racerx said:
...but it appears the new owner wanted an increased pattern altitude of 1000'.
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"New" is relative, but Ben Shipps has owned JB's for two or three years now and he was an instructor there well before that. (He's the son-in-law of the previous owner, who is Jack Brown's son). The altitude change has been more recent, as I understand it. My friend wants to speak with Ben about the altitude, but obviously this isn't a good time.

The altimeter setting might be a contributor. I suspect JB's wants patterns to be flown at 500' above the water, so they zero the altimeter and just use 500'. This puts them 140' or so higher than MSL altitude. Extra altitude for the seaplane combined with a pattern descent for the Warrior may have combined to put them at the same altitude.

In the NTSB press conference, the lady representing the NTSB mentioned that they had interviewed personnel from Polk State and from KGIF, but she did NOT say whether they had interviewed anyone from JB's. I would not be surprised to learn that lawyers have told JB's not to make a statement, but of course I don't know that.
 
cowman said:
It seems to me that the root cause was two traffic patterns operating in close proximity with the lack of radio communication being a significant contributing factor.

I can't believe we can't come up with some kind of a simple battery operated ads-b out gadget for these situations though. Of course we should be looking out the window but come on- how many times have you know exactly where to look for nearby traffic due to a radio call/ads-b/ATC callout and STILL not be able to see it for a long while? I get not wanting to be reliant on ads-b traffic but I have to think anyone who says it isn't a huge help must not have used it before.
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Are you also planning on mandating ADSB In on all aircraft????????

All the ADSB Out only does is give a nice track to discuss after the crash.
 
Half Fast said:
"New" is relative, but Ben Shipps has owned JB's for two or three years now and he was an instructor there well before that. (He's the son-in-law of the previous owner, who is Jack Brown's son). The altitude change has been more recent, as I understand it. My friend wants to speak with Ben about the altitude, but obviously this isn't a good time.

The altimeter setting might be a contributor. I suspect JB's wants patterns to be flown at 500' above the water, so they zero the altimeter and just use 500'. This puts them 140' or so higher than MSL altitude. Extra altitude for the seaplane combined with a pattern descent for the Warrior may have combined to put them at the same altitude.

In the NTSB press conference, the lady representing the NTSB mentioned that they had interviewed personnel from Polk State and from KGIF, but she did NOT say whether they had interviewed anyone from JB's. I would not be surprised to learn that lawyers have told JB's not to make a statement, but of course I don't know that.
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So an altimeter setting off by 50' + actual 640MSL (500' above the lake=zero) and now you're at 700' even before allowing for being off your altitude just slightly. A short approach simulated engine out approach is going to be at 700' at the key point. I don't see how it took this long for an accident to happen given those circumstances.
 
Half Fast said:
"

The altimeter setting might be a contributor. I suspect JB's wants patterns to be flown at 500' above the water, so they zero the altimeter and just use 500'. This puts them 140' or so higher than MSL altitude. Extra altitude for the seaplane combined with a pattern descent for the Warrior may have combined to put them at the same altitude.
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So if I'm doing pattern work at my home drome should I zero the altimeter so it reads 800 in the pattern instead of 1588. I've just never heard of such a practice
 
Racerx said:
So if I'm doing pattern work at my home drome should I zero the altimeter so it reads 800 in the pattern instead of 1588. I've just never heard of such a practice
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That altimeter setting is called "QFE" but using that setting would not be a factor in and of itself. If you set your altimeter to read zero on deck and fly the pattern at 800 ft indicated you'll be at the same altitude (for all day VFR practical purposes) as the person who's altimeter setting gives them field elevation on deck and flies the pattern at 800 ft above that.

Nauga,
and his pal Kollsman
 
Use of QFE (though nobody called it that) used to be common among pilots of small planes, Cubs and such, flying locally, especially in the flatlands. Still commonly used by acro pilots.

It was so simple when I was flying from an airport at 10' MSL...
 
nauga said:
That altimeter setting is called "QFE" but using that setting would not be a factor in and of itself. If you set your altimeter to read zero on deck and fly the pattern at 800 ft indicated you'll be at the same altitude (for all day VFR practical purposes) as the person who's altimeter setting gives them field elevation on deck and flies the pattern at 800 ft above that.

Nauga,
and his pal Kollsman
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Derived from telegraphy, especially CW radio coms. There are a variety of "Q codes." Ham operators use them frequently as they are the same in all languages, hence useful in around-the-world comms. QTH, for example, is asking for the other party's location, and QTR asks for the time.

In this case, QFE would be used to refer to field elevation. Alternatively, QNH refers to MSL (I believe the NH means "nil height"), altitude with respect to mean sea level.

I'd never considered it for acro use before Dana mentioned it, but in that application QFE could make a lot of sense. Many competitors all needing to stay in the same box with the same floor, many chances for mistakes due to an erroneous setting. Simply zeroing the altimeter to the field is easy and consistent.
 
Lindberg said:
If we're head on at that distance, I don't need ADSB to see him.
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Exactly head on yeah. 50 feet below you? Probably not. Had a glider pass just under the nose once. Didn’t see it until I caught a glimpse of it right as it went under the cowl. Maybe 20 or 30 feet below. I would like to think the pilot had eyes on us but based on how close it was I kinda doubt it.
 
A few years ago while flying toward the homestead @ 2K and planning to descend to fly over the property at 1K the ADSB gave me a target dead ahead about 2 miles and 1K below me. I sidestepped a bit and could not spot the target. I held my altitude & soon enough I did see him exactly where the ADSB indicated i.e. 1K below and coming straight at me.

It was a beautiful two seat trike with what appeared to be a Rotax 912. Would I have known he was there without ADSB? I don't have the answer but besides making me aware of the benefits of ADSB it also made me up my game more about looking down before heading down ...
 
Racerx said:
So if I'm doing pattern work at my home drome should I zero the altimeter so it reads 800 in the pattern instead of 1588. I've just never heard of such a practice
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Actually it is very common in some circles, particularly the airshow circuit. At an airshow most of the planes even if participating in just flybys will likely be set to 0 on takeoff.
 
Punkinhead said:
I'm not anti-ADSB, but this accident doesn't seem like a good choice for the "everyone must have ADSB" argument. According to the NTSB the student in the Warrior was doing pattern work and was on short approach. Do we really want student pilots (or anyone, for that matter) with their head down looking at an ADSB display in the pattern?
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Of course not. But it would be nice if, say, a Cub on floats noted nearby traffic.
 
francisco collazos said:
According to someone on my FB feed, her friends were in the Polk state plane and according to her, the seaplane took off right into them.
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The cub perhaps had the sun in there eyes in climb attitude if this was the case. And the Cherokee probably was dividing attention with the runway, airspeed and prepping to land. I fly out of Zephyrhills and most of these airports are beehives when I'm up. I like to go to Bartow and Lakeland and Albert whitted for approaches and landings these days. Saddened greatly by this.
 
farangutan said:
The cub perhaps had the sun in there eyes in climb attitude if this was the case. And the Cherokee probably was dividing attention with the runway, airspeed and prepping to land. I fly out of Zephyrhills and most of these airports are beehives when I'm up. I like to go to Bartow and Lakeland and Albert whitted for approaches and landings these days. Saddened greatly by this.
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That might be but at the end of the day, had the cub had adsb there's a good chance that the warrior would have known that the cub was there. I would have lit up red on the panel. I haven't been flying very long and I did not use adsb with my first instructor. The plane I moved on to has a gtn750 so once I started flying in that plane I started seeing all the traffic around me and it made me extremely paranoid. I am much more worried about traffic than flying the plane. But with experience I have started to note the distance and before I would be freaking out at yellow warning symbol but the nice thing is that there is a lot of spacing with the overall alerts.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Actually it is very common in some circles, particularly the airshow circuit. At an airshow most of the planes even if participating in just flybys will likely be set to 0 on takeoff.
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Airshows it absolutely makes sense. I'm not sure it does here.
 
I have ads-b feed on my tablet. And some planes feed the traffic to the GPS. But I don't look down at my tablet when I'm in the pattern. Tablet traffic mostly when I approach an airport for situational awareness. The plane's GPS can be part of my scan. But most people's scan is limited and eyes are out when doing a power off 180 short approach. I've been working on my commercial lately and this is a sobering wake up call to keep my scan for traffic sharp.

Zephyrhills can get crazy. At least at Zephyrhills they try split some of the operations on the runways. General training and transient in 05-23; glider and skydiving 01-19.
 
I think I saw it reported that the Warrior had ADSB out but do we know that the Warrior had ADSB in? I have ADSB out in one of my planes but only have ADSB in when I'm carrying my tablet which I only do for cross countries when I want weather. I wouldn't have had ADSB in for a local training flight. Many (most?) of the local rental planes used for training don't have ADSB in either.
 
Punkinhead said:
I think I saw it reported that the Warrior had ADSB out but do we know that the Warrior had ADSB in? I have ADSB out in one of my planes but only have ADSB in when I'm carrying my tablet which I only do for cross countries when I want weather. I wouldn't have had ADSB in for a local training flight. Many (most?) of the local rental planes used for training don't have ADSB in either.
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I don't think it would have made any difference in this situation since the Cub was NORDO.

ADS-B only helps eliminate midairs if the pilot(s) have ADS-B In and Out and have audible alerts in the event of traffic conflicts. I added Bluetooth to my audio panel to do just that. It really helps hearing alerts vs looking at the ipad screen while flying.

Very sorry for the families of all involved here...very sad.
 
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