Microsoft Flight Sim X and training

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wildb

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wildb
Hi, I will be starting my training for ppl soon. I just installed Microsoft Flight Simulator X. Do you use this program for training, and have any tips or tricks? The program seemed very intimidating at first, still haven't actually figured it out yet. I see you can get pretty realistic hardware, yoke, pedals, trim etc. what would you recommend for students, any to stay away from/not worth it? Saitek CES432100002/02/1 Pro Flight Cessna Yoke System, This looks like what I would need to start training with this software. Would you recommend any other hardware?

Thanks!

B
 
While it has some important uses for instrument training, at your level, it's a toy. Treat it as such.

It might help motivate you, but it is nothing like a real airplane. Be careful not to train yourself to be a heads-down pilot.

If you want to learn avionics and navigation, there are better-suited specific sims and apps for that, such as several GPS sims.
 
Personally I would suggest you not touch it until your training starts then use it to practice some things once you know the proper technique taught by your instructor. There is limited utility for the PPL, you can use it to practice VORs once you are taught and perhaps for a few other things.

You don't want to learn things incorrectly. You're better off at this time putting your time towards learning the ground material to pass your written private pilot test.

There is by far more utility to be had when you go after your instrument rating.
 
It's not really useful for VFR flying unless your practicing tracking VOR's, GPS, or NDB's or working on emergency procedures IMO.
 
Good points, I should probably ask my instructor what aspects the simulator can have in my training. My thinking was that the sim would be a good way to review what I was taught in a previous lesson. Having no training yet, it is not very useful now. I can see it teaching me bad habits if I use it before training!

Is the sim better for pilots who have their ppl and want to stay current or just learn the instruments better?

Thanks,

B
 
I did use it to practice the steps to preform slow flight, and stalls...but its no more useful than chair-flying those maneuvers.

I understand VOR navigation because of it, that is useful. But its not like a real airplane. Treat it like a toy for now. Did prefly my first solo crosscountry with it. Enjoy.
 
As a person that previously used FSX and other simulators quite a bit before training, I'd suggest you stay away from it. Sims are useful for getting to know procedural flows and IFR techniques, but for someone like yourself that's beginning their training, it will only cause conflicts between what you experience on the computer vs. what you experience in real life.

Sims at home only cause bad habits and reduced awareness when transitioning to the real world. Plus, it'll encourage you to stay inside the cockpit when what you're doing in your real-life PPL training is attempting to stay outside.
 
I had been using simulators for years before ever stepping foot into a small plane and it took me less than 8 hours to solo, so I think it can possibly save you some time and money if you approach using it properly. Even with a full yoke/rudder/throttle/trim setup, the feel of flying an actual plane is very different, but I find that the Sim is more difficult to control precisely.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 
I will be the contrarian here, and this is only based on my own experience (I'm not an instructor), but I had hundreds of hours using Microsoft simulator before taking my first real lesson. This was back in the 90's, and simulators were a bit more primitive, but I thought my "virtual" experience greatly enhanced my ability to learn how to fly a "real" airplane. I took my check ride after about 4 months and 40.x hours. The one thing it didn't help at all with was crosswind landings, and it took way too long for the light to shine in my noggin to learn that skill. I understood it intellectually, but I had to talk myself through it every time. Then one day it finally clicked...

The flight instructors on here have probably seen way too many cases of the opposite happening, so listen to them, and especially listen to your own instructor!
 
I've been a CFI/CFII for nearly 40 years and I've dealt with students and their computer simulator programs since the beginning. During that same period of time I have logged well over 600 hours in "full meal deal" full-motion simulators for the jets that I fly at work. I know the pros and cons of sim training.

When it comes to a student's initial training, games like M/S Flite Sim and all of the others have VERY limited utility. Granted, there will be those who can count how much it helped them, but I'd say those are the "exceptions that prove the rule".

It's awful tempting - two or three hundred bucks will get you a pretty good set up. The reason a lot of guys use games like MSFS etc are because they do a pretty good job and it is possible to learn quite a bit using them. With the cost to rent a typical trainer and CFI at around $150+ per hour, there's an awful lot of incentive to get set up and "fly all day long." I've seen kids that could fly quite well using the skills they taught themselves. (About the only skills they didn't learn was how to look outside and how to do a proper scan.) That's quite a return on investment using something that just cost the equivalent of a couple hours worth of dual. Or so they hope...

The problems arise when they repeatedly practice and reinforce bad techniques or procedures "all day long". That's a lot of negative learning going on. Sure a CFI can undo it and of course you'll pay him to do it but at $150+ per hour, spending an additional 3 or 4 (or more) hours to undo bad habits, techniques or procedures and relearn correct ways to do things becomes a very unnecessary and expen$ive propo$ition and totally defeats the reason why a lot of guys use it. Which brings up what my old piano teacher told me about practicing - practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

For me at least, the bottom line is games like MSFS have the potential to be useful for instrument students and pilots IF their use is supervised at some level. All in all, when I look at the pluses and minuses, I will not recommend them and I tell my primary students to put them away until it's time to start working on their instrument rating and even then, it must be carefully supervised by their CFII.
 
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I use mine for entertainment. I see some offer programs that complement these simulation with a training program of their own. I have never used one of these programs these companies sell and always wondered if these programs brought something to the table the out of the box program did not.

When they " Microsoft FSX " offered the online platform one could log into a multi player portion of their software and practice things like radio communications with real people. That was some of a benefit for students. You could work as ATC also. I never did that and when I wanted to, it was shut down. They need to bring back the multi-portion of this program.

Tony
 
Tony, the multi-player online experience still exists. They did not shut it down in the MSFS, only the server went dead (they became too greedy, typical progression of businesses in the US). If you want to still use the multi-player experience, PM me and I can get you on a good server.

Also, good point about training radio communications and flying in controlled airspace. Many students tend to have a problem flying, scanning and talking on the radio at the same time.

I think Dead Stick nailed it. The sim is not a bad tool but if used improperly without supervision, it is counterproductive (paraphrased). If used under controlled circumstances (by a CFI or the student with high degree of self-control), it can be actually beneficial.
 
Fun tidbit: what most MSFS opponents do not realize is that MS made a deal with Rod Machado (yep, you read it right, Rod himself :) ) to lend a voice to the empty right seat in FSX (FS version 10). They structured his teaching of flying into several lessons and while it is not perfect, it does tend to drill into one's skull that pitch controls airspeed and power controls altitude. :) Especially Rod's phrase "you're too low, add power" sticks in one's mind pretty well. :)
 
For private training, I found X-Plane beneficial for slow flight, stalls, the control inputs and sight picture of steeps turns, normal/short/soft takeoffs/landings and emergency procedures. Where it really came into its own was XC procedures, though. I could write out a full nav log, whip out the E-6B and practice pilotage/ded reckoning as much as I liked.

If the flight model is decent and your controls aren't awful, it can be useful for private training.

However, if you're training the wrong procedures, then you're going to have to unlearn certain things when you get to the cockpit. If you want to minimize that, then don't practice things in the sim until you've been briefed on them by your instructor. At the very least, you can use the sim to reinforce what you just flew in the airplane, in your own time and at no cost.

H.A.S. online multiplayer is alive and well. There are standalone servers, Boston Virtual ATC, VATSIM/IVAO and PilotEdge.
 
BigBadLou said:
Fun tidbit: what most MSFS opponents do not realize is that MS made a deal with Rod Machado (yep, you read it right, Rod himself :) ) to lend a voice to the empty right seat in FSX (FS version 10). They structured his teaching of flying into several lessons and while it is not perfect, it does tend to drill into one's skull that pitch controls airspeed and power controls altitude. :) Especially Rod's phrase "you're too low, add power" sticks in one's mind pretty well. :)
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No, "most opponents" have used the software and seen the Machado sell-out.

It's a marketing ploy. Nothing more. Same as the American Flyers "lessons."

It's the same thing as "Madden Football." Being good at a computer game with a major coach's name associated with it doesn't mean you now know how to play football in the NFL.

The unvarnished truth is that people would like a $200 simulator to substitute for an airplane so much that they make an elaborate mythology around it. But the places where they can help at the private pilot level are very limited.

Don't assume that all criticism comes from inexperience. I was a flight simmer for several years before I took my first flying lessons. I might have saved an hour learning VORs (there really isn't that much to them, and the real ones bounce around a whole lot more than the sims -- and sims don't yell at you if you fail to ident the navaid). I spent more than that getting the damn eyes out of the airplane, and a LOT more than that getting the control pressure feel down, especially in the flare. And while simmers often bristle when one calls their activity a "game," that's exactly what it is.
 
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What I was getting at is that it is up to US what we do with tools that are offered to us.
A hammer can be used to build a house. (well, at least in the US, out of 2x4s and sheetrock) But it can also kill.
I don't think I need to provide more examples to this smart crowd.
 
I started playing with various versions of MSFS when I was a teenager, mostly as an airliner "captain", and I started working on my private certificate a few years ago with lots and lots of hours in MSFS and X-Plane.

I found so little overlap between the real world and the flight characteristics of the simulator that I wasn't even tempted to try and use the sim as a supplement to real world pre-solo training. I definitely agree about the motivational value though, and I do think that the incidental systems, operational, and flight planning knowledge that I picked up probably accelerated some of the ground and x/c aspects of my private training. I finished in 50 hours.

I moved into and finished my instrument rating pretty quickly, and I did not use the sim much to do it, but these days I fly approaches and scenarios in X-Plane all the time as a complement to recurring training in a certified sim with a CFI and in real airplanes. I find it to be a useful tool for briefings, approaches, checklist discipline, and emergencies.

They're not hours that I can log legally of course, but the setup I have at home is similar to what many FBOs have as certified BATDs, minus the CFI and the FAA letter. Without a proper yoke, throttle quadrant, rudder pedals, and some switch panels, I'd say there's not as much value.
 
No, Lou, you're not looking at the audience.

Can you give a hammer to a kid with no experience and expect him to build a safe and legal house with systems that work? Including things like plumbing? Can you give him a computer game and change the outcome?

The first thing one learns in building/repair trades is to use the correct tool for the job. Hammers are really, really bad at driving screws or caulking seams. Likewise, computer games are really bad at teaching people what they really need to know for primary flight training. They can help a little at some of the ancillary issues, but it is not at all cost-free due to bad habits.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Not useful for VFR flight. It's nothing like a real airplane.
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Yep. Much of what you learn for your private license is the feel of the airplane, timing of the controls for landing based on what you see out the window, responsiveness of the controls, and how the aircraft feels as you are performing maneuvers, etc. This is all completely different in real life than in Flight Sim X. Consequently, you learn none of this in Flight Sim X, and in fact, you can get away with some things that would kill you in real life. Thus, it's best not to even mess with it without specific instruction from your instructor.

Areas where it can help you with is running through check lists, instrument interpretation, and using the radio navigation to follow specific courses and approaches.
 
In a flight sim I can touch down a 182 and come to a full stop in about 50 feet. It's not very realistic.

It helped me get my PPL but was just advanced chair flying, check list practice ect.
 
I think sims are better for IFR training than for PPL rating.
 
If you can fly 3x a week, the value of a good sim set-up will probably be of little value. However, while I was getting my PPL over the last two years I could rarely fly more than once a week, and sometimes had 2-3 month gaps due to budget and time constraints.

Consequently, I used my MSFX sim (with yoke, rudders and throttle) quite a bit at home. When flying with my CFI, I plugged in a voice recorder to the intercom system. I would then play the audio while re-flying past lessons on the sim. I had to fiddle with passenger and baggage weights a bit within the sim setting, but you can actually get the plane to mimic fairly well real-life performance behaviors.

Will it help your sight picture? Not really. Will it encourage you to stay inside the cockpit while flying for real? Yes, unfortunately. That was the one negative behavior that my CFI had to work on with me that was "learned" on the sim and not productive to VFR flight. Will it help with landing the plane? No. There is absolutely no flare or ground effect in the sim.

If you know what it can do, and focus on those benefits, it will be the best $300-$500 you can spend. I pretty much used it for what the others have mentioned: checklist flows, emergency procedures, navigation, XC pre-flight, and radio use (flying out of bravo airspace we need to throw in multiple frequency changes between the ground and cruise).

Just a note: I found the audio recordings MORE helpful than the flight sim itself. Often times I would just sit at home and listen to them to remind myself about radio calls and what I needed to improve on.
 
Steve Job said:
I will be the contrarian here, and this is only based on my own experience (I'm not an instructor), but I had hundreds of hours using Microsoft simulator before taking my first real lesson. This was back in the 90's, and simulators were a bit more primitive, but I thought my "virtual" experience greatly enhanced my ability to learn how to fly a "real" airplane. I took my check ride after about 4 months and 40.x hours. The one thing it didn't help at all with was crosswind landings, and it took way too long for the light to shine in my noggin to learn that skill. I understood it intellectually, but I had to talk myself through it every time. Then one day it finally clicked...

The flight instructors on here have probably seen way too many cases of the opposite happening, so listen to them, and especially listen to your own instructor!
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I will agree with this and I am a CFI/CFII/MEI. I trust you're smart enough to know its a game and not real and will be able to listen and apply what your instructor tells you IRL. In the mean time MSFS can scratch that itch and let you simulate what you obviously care about.

I played Sims way before I ever took my first flight and they probably helped nurture the desire and teach me its not nearly mysterious or complex as flying seems to the general public.
 
Steve Job said:
I will be the contrarian here, and this is only based on my own experience (I'm not an instructor), but I had hundreds of hours using Microsoft simulator before taking my first real lesson. This was back in the 90's, and simulators were a bit more primitive, but I thought my "virtual" experience greatly enhanced my ability to learn how to fly a "real" airplane. I took my check ride after about 4 months and 40.x hours. The one thing it didn't help at all with was crosswind landings, and it took way too long for the light to shine in my noggin to learn that skill. I understood it intellectually, but I had to talk myself through it every time. Then one day it finally clicked...

The flight instructors on here have probably seen way too many cases of the opposite happening, so listen to them, and especially listen to your own instructor!
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:thumbsup:took me a little longer to solo though (around 70hrs 23), due to the time between lessons, due to my rotating shift work which includes 2 to 3 weekends per month.
Correction: 23 to solo, ~70 check ride:lol:
Captain said:
I will agree with this and I am a CFI/CFII/MEI. I trust you're smart enough to know its a game and not real and will be able to listen and apply what your instructor tells you IRL. In the mean time MSFS can scratch that itch and let you simulate what you obviously care about.

I played Sims way before I ever took my first flight and they probably helped nurture the desire and teach me its not nearly mysterious or complex as flying seems to the general public.
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My experience as well, from my teenage years in the mid 80's (I bought practically every flight sim available for the Commodore-64, Amiga and PC). Didn't take a real flight lesson until I could afford it at 32, so for me there was no choice. But I agree with others here, if you're about to start lessons, leave the sim alone until you've logged some time and learned the basics. Then use it as a tool to practice.
I still enjoy X-Plane and P3D:yes:

redtail said:
Also an excellent way to familiarize yourself with all of the features of WingX Pro (shown here with P3D) or Foreflight. Both are compatable with X-Plane 10, FSX and P3D via wifi. Nice feature!:yesnod:
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I'm a proponent of sims. I went all-out with my set up and made sure I purchased hardware that would closely mimic a real airplane so I could familiarize myself with systems and procedures. It is also useful for working on radio nav techniques and doing brush-up flights. Now I use it to do dry runs of my XC flights especially into airports with which I'm unfamiliar.

That said, I was cognizant of its limitations from the beginning. I never used it to teach myself flight maneuvers. What I did was I learned first from my CFI and then practiced the procedures of setting up slow flight, stalls, pattern flying, etc. Essentially chair flying but a little more involved. There's no way (even in a Redbird full motion sim) that you can really replicate the seat-of-the-pants aspects you get in your ab initio flight training.

But I found that I was able to very quickly apply practical concepts learned in my lessons and reinforce them. I was able to get my PPL in just over 40 hours after only taking lessons once or twice a month because I was able to maintain the muscle memory and keep the procedures and systems fresh in my mind.

I can definitely see where the sim can lead to bad habits but IMHO if you are serious in your approach to sim flying and understand that it is a tool rather than a substitution for actual time it can be a huge benefit.

Check out the A2A Accusim add-on aircraft (172, PA28 & 182). By far the most accurate flight dynamics in FSX. They are built specifically to be trainers for real-world flight.
 
I, too, will be a voice of dissent from the others. I grew up using MSFS for fun (back on Windows 3.1). I owned MSFS 95 and X. I didn't participate in the multi-player stuff, and would only play for a few hours per month. However, I do feel that it allowed me to play around and figure out the panel instruments and such so that I didn't need to waste any brain-power comprehending things once I got into the real cockpit. I really do think it helped in that sense, because I knew exactly what the 6-pack was telling me without having to focus on the instruments directly. Once I began flight training, I used MSFS X to practice procedures (GUMPS, clean/dirty stalls, takeoff speeds, landing speeds, etc) which also reduced time wasted in the cockpit. Essentially, I was chair flying with a computer screen in order to reinforce the lessons/procedures that were taught by my CFI. I passed the 'ride with less than 41TT.

Things MSFS (or any other cheap sim) won't provide:
1) Spatial awareness
2) Feel/sound of flight, or control pressures
3) Substitute for in-flight experience, or a motion-simulator

As long as you understand the limitations of MSFS, I don't see any harm in using it to supplement your training. Just don't get too involved in watching the instrument panel, or try to practice landings, because it won't provide any benefit for you at the PPC stage, once you get to IFR-stuff it becomes useful again.
 
By the way an updated and bugfixed version of Microsoft Flight Simulator came out 2 weeks ago on Steam and is now just $12.95 until first days of January:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/314160/
A company called Dovetail licensed it from MS a while back. They have promised even some real updates.
 
yhuubert said:
By the way an updated and bugfixed version of Microsoft Flight Simulator came out 2 weeks ago on Steam and is now just $12.95 until first days of January:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/314160/

A company called Dovetail licensed it from MS a while back. They have promised even some real updates.
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What the heck is "Steam" anyway and why is it better than just installing off of a DVD?
 
dans2992 said:
What the heck is "Steam" anyway and why is it better than just installing off of a DVD?
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You mean those coffee cup coasters, like vinyl old people talk about being used last century? ;) Most computers nowadays don't even have DVD drives and people are used to install everything by one click online.

Steam is the most popular online game distribution service, with around 100 million users: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_(software)

You can also get X-Plane off Steam.
 
So FSX purchased through steam is a different program then the original or is this an add-on? I also see it uses single core processing
 
1600vw said:
So FSX purchased through steam is a different program then the original or is this an add-on? I also see it uses single core processing
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I bought it and installed it. Seems like the same game I played 10 years ago and is completely subpar graphics wise to Prepar3D. However I wanted to install it so I could install old FSX Addon planes and then copy them over to my Prepar3D directories.
 
1600vw said:
So FSX purchased through steam is a different program then the original or is this an add-on? I also see it uses single core processing
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It's basically the same game, although the GameSpy multiplayer has been switched out to use Steam multiplayer. It's also not [yet?] compatible with some add-ons or multiplayer servers. I found out the hard way that it wasn't compatible with Boston Virtual ATC.
 
1600vw said:
So FSX purchased through steam is a different program then the original or is this an add-on? I also see it uses single core processing
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It's the full program. It has content of the Gold edition from 2006 plus the Acceleration Expansion Pack.

The updates include new Steam multiplayer, Windows 8.1 support, fixes since the last MS version was out and as I understand some updates to the airports database.

Since Dovetail also licensed the engine, they have said they plan to bring other flight sim related software to the market in 2015.

And if you ask who's Dovetail: they're the world's leading train simulator and fishing simulator manufacturer :rofl:

Are you sure about single core? FSX has been multi-core for ages, although the tasks loaded on other cores were somewhat specific (https://software.intel.com/en-us/ar...r-x-soars-to-new-heights-with-multi-threading).
 
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I also see it uses single core processing
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Exactly, call me when multi-core processors are supported. I'm tired of maxing out my beefy multi-core PC to run software that was rolled out 8 years ago.

I'd switch to Prepar3d but I'm hesitant that it will support all my add-on hardware.
 
I used Microsoft Flight Sim X quite often. It helped me a lot as a student, but not necessarily with flying. For all those who are against it, there are some important points to look at.

I agree fully that it is nothing like flying a real airplane, so takeoffs, landings, and actual flying don't do any good unless you're doing it for entertainment. Aside from it not being the same behavior as a real plane, the spacial orientation is way off.

Practicing things in that program such as navigation, radio controls, preflights/checklists, and getting to know the instruments and their behaviors was of great value to me. There are also a lot of resources in that program for students including excerpts from Machado's own program. The lessons in the program also match up with Rod Machado's Private Pilot book. It's a pretty good book for students if you enjoy his style, and it's a nice change from books that only teach you to pass exams.

After that, I would agree with the general consensus that it also helps with IFR training.
 
I just started training about a month ago. Before that, my father had bought me a Saitek cockpit simulator and Microsoft Flight X. I played around on it for a good time before I went to actually fly. I found myself knowing a lot about what to do in basic situations.

I thought it was overrated, but if you play around with it, trying different control inputs and such, you can get a feel of maintaining the airplane to a minor degree. My first instructor actually commented on that and asked if I was using a simulator. He said he could tell because I had a semi-feel for what was going on.

Just remember it's a simulator. You can't feel the wind, gravity, etc. :)
 
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