Metal in oil filter

Flyhound

Flyhound

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jan 7, 2014
Messages
441
Location
Washington State
Display Name
Display name:
Flyhound
Uggghhh! At my last oil change, I cut my oil filter open as I always do, but this time, there were shiny specs all over the filter media. I washed the filter paper in solvent and collected the resulting "debris". There was a little less than 1/4 teaspoon of ferrous metal in the leftovers. My engine is a Lycoming O-360-C1F and has well over 2,000 hours on it, so I was ready for something bad to happen despite having good compressions on all 4 cylinders, little oil consumption, and good power. I've ordered a rebuilt engine from LyCon, and the delivery time is 6-8 months. That was as good as any reputable shop could offer, so I'll live with it. The question is what to do while waiting for the new engine. I followed the Lycoming instructions to change the oil and fly again for 10 hours. I've done that and there was still ferrous metal in the filter, but less this time (10 hours run time versus 30). There is still well under the 2 teaspoons that requires grounding the plane. What's my move? Oil pressure is fine and the engine still runs smoothly. Do I keep flying until I have 2 teaspoons of metal, or do I quit until the new engine arrives? Is there a way to tell where the metal is coming from? If it's the cam, it isn't likely to result in a catastrophic failure, but if the metal is coming from a wrist pin (also ferrous) it could result in a seized engine. The metal debris looks hairy in this shot because there is a magnet under the plastic cup. PXL_20230929_182047287.jpg
 
If you have been doing oil analysis they could give you a pretty good idea.
What else are you finding in the filter?

I’d ground it, I think? Sorry about your troubles. 2000+ is a great run on the engine though.
 
Last edited:
I've seen worse, but I probably wouldn't fly it without further investigation. Personally, I'd try to figure out where the metal is coming from and depending on the source you may be able to fix it fairly easily so you could continue to enjoy flying while you wait for your engine.
 
Such a bummer.

Time to dig deeper

Suggestions if Metal is Found in the Screens or Filter

Because the failure to look for metal in the screens and filter, or ignoring what is found, can lead to catastrophic engine failure, we’ll attempt a logical approach to the proper action to be taken when metal shows up in the oil screen or oil-filter cartridge.
www.lycoming.com www.lycoming.com
 
If you think it may be the cam, you could try to take a look. Inspecting Lycoming cams without disassembly is mentioned in this article:

www.aopa.org

Opinion: Powerplant resurrection

Piston aircraft engines hate to sit unflown. During lengthy periods of disuse, the protective oil film strips off critical surfaces such as cylinder walls, cam lobes, and tappet faces, exposing them to the risk of corrosion pitting. Then afterward, when the engine is finally dry started with the...
www.aopa.org

To quote the article:
Lycomings are the toughest to inspect. Many say that it’s impossible to look at the cam or lifters without removing cylinders. That’s not quite true. If you drain the oil and use the oil drain port to insert a flexible borescope with a probe that’s no more than 5.5 millimeters in diameter (such as the ViVidia VA-350 ), it’s possible to work it up through the slots in the bottom rear of the crankcase and past the crankshaft to visualize the rearmost three cam lobes and four tappets located above the crank.
 
I am proponent of aircraft accidents are a chain of events where breaking the chain prevents the accident. If you want to fly, rent for 6 months.
 
Renting sounds like a good idea.
Maybe someone could open it up and see?
I bet Lycoming will take at least 8 months to get the engine to you.
I ordered a Lycoming rebuilt engine in Dec 2019 and received it 7 weeks late. It was the beginning of covid also.
My old motor I kept a close eye on with oil analysis and frequent leakdown tests.
Xmas 2019 I removed all 4 cylinders to take a close look. It had 1700 hrs on it and 40 years old. Everything inside looked pretty good including the cam and lifters. Only thing I found was coked up oil rings and 3 out of 4 pistons had the ring gaps lined up with one another. The cam did have some microscopic pits as the engine only flew 10 hours in 10 years before I started flying it for a friend at first before buying it from him. The lifters had corrosion on them but not pits. Because all of the above I ordered a replacement. I had flown this motor for 400 hrs before taking it apart. So I had plenty of confidence in it but was concerned about oil usage as it got worse.
But since the rest of it looked good I spaced out the ring gaps after cleaning them and the pistons and put it back together to keep flying it until the new engine came. It ran just the same or a little better afterwards and the oil usage went from 1qt to 4 hours to 1qt to 8-9 hours! I was so happy the old engine ran so well and bummed I ordered the replacement. I flew it for 98 more hours until I had to swap it to get my core back within 90 days of receiving the new engine.
My original thought was I would take it apart and if necessary send it back to lycoming in pieces if need be. Keep some of the clys, because a local rebuild shop said I could keep my old clys. Then I found out they want it together and have been flown within the previous 12 months. So put it back together and kept flying it. Worked out well.
Good luck with yours.
Pictures or it didn't happen.
(edited)_.png

IMG_67441.jpg

Here's the oil anaylis that I had done after flying the old engine for 98 hrs without a oil change. I took it off the plane and sent it back to lycoming after this. High silicon was from the valve cover gaskets which were silicon, I use no silicon on the engine assembly.
IMG_8282.JPG
 
Last edited:
Gary Ward said:
The lifters had corrosion on them but not pits. Because all of the above I ordered a replacement. I had flown this motor for 400 hrs before taking it apart. So I had plenty of confidence in it.

Pictures or it didn't happen.
(edited)_.png
Click to expand...
I see there are four more sets of spaces for lifters and pushrods in the photo. The rack must be a leftover from some other activity.

:p
 
Last edited:
3393RP said:
I see there are four more sets of spaces for lifters and pushrods in the photo. The rack must be a leftover from some other activity.

:p
Click to expand...
Not so much leftover as I still use it for V8 and smaller rebuilds. The leftovers were custom built for hemis because those parts were too big for store bought fixtures. We took the pushrods out after every day of racing to save the springs so this fixture got used a lot. There is some mopar 340 parts on this bench. The yellow fixture/holder with red allen T handles are for the body 1/4 turn fasteners, made by a friend of mine. Each crew member uses one.
MVC-051S-1.jpg

I didn't have a fixture built for fresh heads so I used the race car.
0bbbc08d.jpg

Another time I forgot the cam guard.
MVC-001S-18.jpg

This is a fixture that I use to freshen hemi heads and 3rd members for the 9" rear end. That piece sitting on the bench to the right next to the oil pump, bolted on for hemi head servicing.
MVC-014S-7.jpg
 
Last edited:
Gary Ward said:
Not so much leftover as I still use it for V8 and smaller rebuilds. The leftovers were custom built for hemis because those parts were too big for store bought fixtures. We took out the pushrods out after everyday of racing to save the springs so this fixture got used a lot. There is some mopar 340 parts on this bench.

I didn't have a fixture built for fresh heads so I used the race car
Click to expand...
I noticed the pushrod holes were too small for your hemis. I think the ones in our 2,300 HP on the bottles single engine 420 MPH streamliner were 11/16" diameter.

I imagine you spend a little less on aviation than you did racing.

:D
 
Last edited:
3393RP said:
I noticed the pushrod holes were too small for your hemis. I think the ones in our 2,300 HP on the bottles single engine 420 MPH streamliner were 9/16" diameter.

I imagine you spend a little less on aviation than you did racing.

:D
Click to expand...
For sure and I get to spend more than 5 seconds flying the plane and no sponsors to cater too.
 
That's a lot of metal, hard to tell due to the magnet but cam wear usually looks like strings instead of chips. Best case is it's cam wear and you can keep flying it without fear of catastrophic failure. Worst case is it's coming from an accessory gear or crank and you risk spinning a bearing and grenading the engine making it worthless as a core at best or injuring you at worst. It's not that hard to pull a few cylinders to check things over since you have time to kill.
 
Grum.Man said:
That's a lot of metal, hard to tell due to the magnet but cam wear usually looks like strings instead of chips. Best case is it's cam wear and you can keep flying it without fear of catastrophic failure. Worst case is it's coming from an accessory gear or crank and you risk spinning a bearing and grenading the engine making it worthless as a core at best or injuring you at worst. It's not that hard to pull a few cylinders to check things over since you have time to kill.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the best most informative post Grum.Man. Makes so much sense and for Flyhound the OP.
 
Last edited:
Lycoming making metal? Can and followers. The question for further use is whether or not you feel lucky. I have a friend in the exact same position, but he didn’t use Ly-Con. His lead time is 5-6 months.
 
AThis Lycoming lifter is 55 years old with 2000 hours on it, and it was the worst one in the engine. Cam wasn't terrible ether. Parallel valve 150 horse. Never used camgaurd or any special preservation since we have owed it (20 years). Wasn't making metal just low compressions so it was time to overhaul it.

Lotta luck involved in engine longevity IMHO

8 month downtime? Replace the FWF wiring, engine controls, engine mount overhaul and the works.

IMG_4642.jpg
 
Last edited:
Spicoli?
 

Attachments

  • jpg_e70d2250-e0ce-4853-b85e-0e631cbf0433_650x.jpg
    jpg_e70d2250-e0ce-4853-b85e-0e631cbf0433_650x.jpg
    95.2 KB · Views: 22
What has been done to the engine over the last 200hr might give you a clue as to where to look. Small amount of metal makes you wonder at night and over water or any other place you don't want to land. It might be nothing or not, I would look a little more into it before tearing the engine down for something that was done in the last 200hr that might explain it.
 
Some items not mentioned?

Oil Analysis tells you that a problem may be developing.

Other techniques tell you that you DO have an issue.

The big chunks live in the Sump.

The Suction Screen should catch some of them and should be checked.

Solvent flushing the Sump through a Paint Strainer may provide

more evidence than other methods.


Metal can remain in crevasses for a long time.

Consider the possibility of prior issues when making a decision.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top