Messed up on medical app

[Planewithnowings]

Long story short I messed up my first class medical app by listening to someone that obviously doesn’t care, but I do and I’m dumb for going as far as I did.

Am just getting into flight classes and considered changing my entire career path to fly commercial or cargo.

I lied and submitted my application, I did not seek a AME yet and was just getting the application ready.

I listened to my buddy to not worry about so far in my past the FAA doesn’t look back that far blah blah blah… so I never documented the questions concerning ADD when I was 13-15. I have no documented health records for it and I’ve asked my mother who kept records etc if she remembered who the practice was dr etc. she doesn’t even know if the practice is still open….

I had my driver’s license suspended sometime I think around when I was 18-19? Im not really sure. I know it was for speeding tickets nothing major. I even purchased my driving record from the state (WI) and it doesn’t show my suspension nor any tickets I had over 10 years ago

I know this is completely my fault and im not the kind of person to try to cheat the system obviously when I filled it out and submitted it I thought so but I can’t live with guilt never have and never will

any advice on retrieving medical records that I cannot possibly find?

any other advice is greatly appreciated, as to contact the FAA and ask to redo my app they’ll probably defer it forever if I tel them the reason im not sure what to do

By the way im 32 years old

Thanks!

 

[RussS]

Submit a new app with a different email. As long as you haven’t seen an AME yet the original one will never see the light of day. If the suspension was over 10 years ago it’s likely not an issue…unless there was alcohol involved. Depending how long ago 13-15 years old was for you, those records may not even exist anymore. I would think your primary care physician would have any pertinent info/diagnosis’. I’d start there and then fill out a new MedXpress.

 

[Planewithnowings]

Submit a new app with a different email. As long as you haven’t seen an AME yet the original one will never see the light of day. If the suspension was over 10 years ago it’s likely not an issue…unless there was alcohol involved. Depending how long ago 13-15 years old was for you, those records may not even exist anymore. I would think your primary care physician would have any pertinent info/diagnosis’. I’d start there and then fill out a new MedXpress.

32 years old now

I don’t even have a primary but I can see if I can find info on pediatric dr

I appreciate it!

 

[brcase]

I DISAGREE ABOUT SUBMIT A NEW APP, with a caveat.

Agree if you have not seen an AME it will be a non issue.
If you submit it with the issues you have mentioned. I believe IT WILL BE DENIED.

Your best course of action is consult with Dr Bruce at www.aeromedicaldoc.com How to get started.

He will tell you what you need to do to proceed, what you should do and what you shouldn't do, and what to expect.
Once you have done that then you can submit a new app.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[schmookeeg]

I know this is completely my fault and im not the kind of person to try to cheat the system obviously when I filled it out and submitted it I thought so but I can’t live with guilt never have and never will

You're on a fast track to add suicidal ideation to your FAA Medical rap sheet. Careful.

 

[AggieMike88]

Pinging Doctor Lou and Doctor Bruce for their input. @lbfjrmd @bbchien

 

[lbfjrmd]

you need a senior AME to help you fill out a new 8500 - complete and utterly truthful - and then undergo your medical exam.

 

[RussS]

I DISAGREE ABOUT SUBMIT A NEW APP, with a caveat.

Agree if you have not seen an AME it will be a non issue.
If you submit it with the issues you have mentioned. I believe IT WILL BE DENIED.

I’m not saying submit a new app to get around any kind of medical issue. I’m just saying unless it goes live, it doesn’t really exist. So one COULD just let it go and submit a new one with the correct info on it.

I agree that OP should talk with a good AME to decide what should be included in the resubmission.

 

[kell490]

Long story short I messed up my first class medical app by listening to someone that obviously doesn’t care, but I do and I’m dumb for going as far as I did.

Am just getting into flight classes and considered changing my entire career path to fly commercial or cargo.

I lied and submitted my application, I did not seek a AME yet and was just getting the application ready.

I listened to my buddy to not worry about so far in my past the FAA doesn’t look back that far blah blah blah… so I never documented the questions concerning ADD when I was 13-15. I have no documented health records for it and I’ve asked my mother who kept records etc if she remembered who the practice was dr etc. she doesn’t even know if the practice is still open….

I had my driver’s license suspended sometime I think around when I was 18-19? Im not really sure. I know it was for speeding tickets nothing major. I even purchased my driving record from the state (WI) and it doesn’t show my suspension nor any tickets I had over 10 years ago

I know this is completely my fault and im not the kind of person to try to cheat the system obviously when I filled it out and submitted it I thought so but I can’t live with guilt never have and never will

any advice on retrieving medical records that I cannot possibly find?

any other advice is greatly appreciated, as to contact the FAA and ask to redo my app they’ll probably defer it forever if I tel them the reason im not sure what to do

By the way im 32 years old

Thanks!

Were you prescribed medication for the ADD? Was it just a consult?

 

[Planewithnowings]

Were you prescribed medication for the ADD? Was it just a consult?

No I was prescribed I do Not have an exact month time line, but it was around 17 or so years ago since I’ve been off of it

 

[midlifeflyer]

you need a senior AME to help you fill out a new 8500 - complete and utterly truthful - and then undergo your medical exam.

@Planewithnowings, you have a history that needs to be dealt with. Hitting the "Submit" button means that application is complete and can no longer be changed. It does not mean the FAA sees it or that it becomes part of your permanent record. They don't and it doesn't until you give the AME's office the retrieval code and they pull it up. You said, "I did not seek a AME yet and was just getting the application ready." If that's accurate, "permanence" did not take place. You ae free to start all over, prepare a new application, and let the incorrect application time out. (I am assuming from your post that this is your first time applying for an FAA medical and that you don't already have an FAA medical based on an incorrect application).

But...

Especially with career aspirations, you want to do it right. That may mean going through hoops. It may, sadly, mean, that you choose to do something else. But there is no way to make that decision intelligently without knowledge. And knowledge comes from professional advice, not SGOTI who have no stake in the game.

 

[Planewithnowings]

@Planewithnowings, you have a history that needs to be dealt with. Hitting the "Submit" button means that application is complete and can no longer be changed. It does not mean the FAA sees it or that it becomes part of your permanent record. They don't and it doesn't until you give the AME's office the retrieval code and they pull it up. You said, "I did not seek a AME yet and was just getting the application ready." If that's accurate, "permanence" did not take place. You ae free to start all over, prepare a new application, and let the incorrect application time out. (I am assuming from your post that this is your first time applying for an FAA medical and that you don't already have an FAA medical based on an incorrect application).

But...

Especially with career aspirations, you want to do it right. That may mean going through hoops. It may, sadly, mean, that you choose to do something else. But there is no way to make that decision intelligently without knowledge. And knowledge comes from professional advice, not SGOTI who have no stake in the game.

@Planewithnowings, you have a history that needs to be dealt with. Hitting the "Submit" button means that application is complete and can no longer be changed. It does not mean the FAA sees it or that it becomes part of your permanent record. They don't and it doesn't until you give the AME's office the retrieval code and they pull it up. You said, "I did not seek a AME yet and was just getting the application ready." If that's accurate, "permanence" did not take place. You ae free to start all over, prepare a new application, and let the incorrect application time out. (I am assuming from your post that this is your first time applying for an FAA medical and that you don't already have an FAA medical based on an incorrect application).

But...

Especially with career aspirations, you want to do it right. That may mean going through hoops. It may, sadly, mean, that you choose to do something else. But there is no way to make that decision intelligently without knowledge. And knowledge comes from professional advice, not SGOTI who have no stake in the game.

I got tons of advice from this post and I contacted a senior AME, he gave me all the requirements I’m going to need. Yes the hoops to go through I’m fine with.

thanks to everyone here for comments, I will try to keep updating as it goes on

 

[SamSES]

Were you prescribed medication for the ADD? Was it just a consult?

His parents were prescribed, don’t think you can write a script directly to a child, it would be written onto the parents health insurance if they used insurance




You sure you had ADD, you were a young child, you sure it wasn’t, to the best of your knowledge, just vitamins?

Your friend might have been really trying to help you on this one

 

[Planewithnowings]

His parents were prescribed, don’t think you can write a script directly to a child, it would be written onto the parents health insurance if they used insurance




You sure you had ADD, you were a young child, you sure it wasn’t, to the best of your knowledge, just vitamins?

Your friend might have been really trying to help you on this one

I remember I was on it. But I can’t recall for how long I remember always fighting with my mom about not taking it and would always throw them in the toilet. I was super active as a kid, skateboarding, bmx, fishing everything outdoors ofc I didn’t want to focus in school I wanted to be outside.

I know I have steps to overcome and medical records I have to dig up I just want to do this the right way even if I find “no proof” I also don’t want an accident to happen where they find evidence I was taking medication for ADD

 

[SamSES]

I remember I was on it. But I can’t recall for how long I remember always fighting with my mom about not taking it and would always throw them in the toilet. I was super active as a kid, skateboarding, bmx, fishing everything outdoors ofc I didn’t want to focus in school I wanted to be outside.

I know I have steps to overcome and medical records I have to dig up I just want to do this the right way even if I find “no proof” I also don’t want an accident to happen where they find evidence I was taking medication for ADD

Sounds like a normal kid to me


If you did something as a pilot that got them digging like that, interrogations with your mom and presuming your parents told them, even though you said they don’t remember, well if the FAA wants someone that bad they’ll end up finding something anyways even if it’s a product of fantasy

I understand your stance, just be careful holding the FAA in too high of a regard, they are not a citadel as much as a cesspool we have to occasional wade through


You might want to talk to some aviation lawyers too, see what your exposure is, as a kid if you think you MIGHT have been taking XYZ medication but obviously don’t fully know as you were a kid, and mom doesn’t even remember, maybe she just was giving you Valerian root pills to calm you down

 

[Planewithnowings]

Sounds like a normal kid to me


If you did something as a pilot that got them digging like that, interrogations with your mom and presuming your parents told them, even though you said they don’t remember, well if the FAA wants someone that bad they’ll end up finding something anyways even if it’s a product of fantasy

I understand your stance, just be careful holding the FAA in too high of a regard, they are not a citadel as much as a cesspool we have to occasional wade through


You might want to talk to some aviation lawyers too, see what your exposure is, as a kid if you think you MIGHT have been taking XYZ medication but obviously don’t fully know as you were a kid, and mom doesn’t even remember, maybe she just was giving you Valerian root pills to calm you down

Yeah hopefully the medical and pharmacy transcripts I dig up can have info I need. And that’s something I don’t need is to throw a family member in a hot seat on my behalf.

anymore info on contacting an aviation lawyer? I’ve read that this probably isn’t the best thing to do as their contracted through the FAA? Idk the facts or what people have actually done.

a lot of stories I’ve read up about this usually ends at a brick wall. No posts or updates from original posters or anything

 

[SamSES]

Yeah hopefully the medical and pharmacy transcripts I dig up can have info I need. And that’s something I don’t need is to throw a family member in a hot seat on my behalf.

anymore info on contacting an aviation lawyer? I’ve read that this probably isn’t the best thing to do as their contracted through the FAA? Idk the facts or what people have actually done.

a lot of stories I’ve read up about this usually ends at a brick wall. No posts or updates from original posters or anything

AMEs have much more of a leash on them compared to a lawyer specializing in FAA matters

Unless you were thinking I was talking about talking one of the FAA’s own lawyers, that would be a horrifically bad idea

 

[midlifeflyer]

anymore info on contacting an aviation lawyer? I’ve read that this probably isn’t the best thing to do as their contracted through the FAA?

"Your" aviation lawyer - the one you hire - is not an FAA employee and no allegiance to anyone but you.

But there's another reason. An aviation lawyer can be a big help when the issue is legal. In the medical certification field, that's usually things like a medical has been denied because of some policy and you want to challenge the legality of the policy or the FAA wants to revoke your certificates because they say you falsified an application. There are times when a legal analysis up front can be helpful. I have, for example, consulted with pilots to review court records to determine whether something they were involved with is required to be disclosed at all. In another, the pilot was repeatedly denied and an appeal, rather than a re-application was the only real option.

But in most cases where the question is, "what do I need to do to to satisfy the FAA that I can meet their requirements?" it's really all about the medical analysis. Although there are lawyers who specialize in medical issues and truly understand the system, the best are going to have medical professionals for consultation.

Often when I am consulted on a specific question, my response is, "Right now, you have a medical issue. You never want to make a medical issue into a legal one unless you have to."

 

[SamSES]

When it comes to the FAA seldom is it a real medical issue, as in there is something anyone outside of the FAA would consider a health concern, as much as it is a administrative issue, my default with all things FAA is a aviation lawyer

 

[bbchien]

And a lawyer CANNOT get you a medical clearance.

 

[SamSES]

And a lawyer CANNOT get you a medical clearance.

If you have been doing this you know better than to make that somewhat disingenuous statement

A versed FAA attorney can guide a airmen to a good AME, make a game plan, keep the ame on mission, and help the airmen through the process, calling his contacts, filing information acts as needed, and knows exactly the rules the FAA is REQUIRED to play by, they also have much more time dealing with and contesting things than the average AME, and much more inside experience as to what the FAA looks at, how they react in different situation, not to mention disposing many FAA types

I was not trying to take away any of your business sir

 

[Palmpilot]

Dr. Chien is not the average AME, and it sounds like you're not describing the average attorney.

 

[SamSES]

Dr. Chien is not the average AME, and it sounds like you're not describing the average attorney.

He’s a HIMS AME

And I’m talking a FAA versed lawyer

Both are known in the business

 

[bflynn]

If you have not seen an AME, don't. Your application will age out after 60 days. THEN go back and submit the correct one.

If you have a history to be discussed, I do recommend just a skilled AME - both Dr Chien and Dr Fowler are excellent and will steer your right. BTW, unless he recently added it, Dr Chien is not a HIMS AME, he just knows the program inside and out.

 

[bbchien]

If you have not seen an AME, don't. Your application will age out after 60 days. THEN go back and submit the correct one.

If you have a history to be discussed, I do recommend just a skilled AME - both Dr Chien and Dr Fowler are excellent and will steer your right. BTW, unless he recently added it, Dr Chien is not a HIMS AME, he just knows the program inside and out.

I've Been a HIMS AME since 2010, some of the most rewarding work one can do. When you get someone's life back.....(!) (See attachments)

And, I'm just laughing. If the case has an attorney interposed and the atty prevents my direct contact with the candidate, I just beg off. There are so many terrible ones out there it's just not worth the trouble. "I'm sorry I'm fully engaged and cannot take this one"....because I am (busier than all get out).

There is a place for them, but it is a truth, an attorney cannot get you a medical clearance. And a two year delay is all but guaranteed, and then that's before the airman relaizes he has to work to fill two years of "filling the squares". Their stadium, their ball their rules, given to them by congress. Don't omit and don't tell a lie and there isn't a need for one.

Sign me, one of the four, origin petitioners for the SSRI protocol.

 

[SamSES]

I've Been a HIMS AME since 2010, some of the most rewarding work one can do. See attachments.

And, "SamSES", I'm just laughing. If the case has an attorney interposed and the atty prevents my direct contact with the candidate, I just beg off. There are so many terrible ones out there it's just not worth the trouble. "I'm sorry I'm fully engaged and cannot take this one".

There is a place for them but it is a truth, an attorney cannot get you a medical clearance. And a two year delay is all but guaranteed, and then that's before you work to fill two years of "filling the squares". Their stadium, their ball their rules, given to them by congress. Sorry you have such an axe to grind.

Sign me, one of the origin petitioners for the SSRI protocol.

Oh man

You don’t grant them anything ether, the FAA does, you’re the medical equivalent of a DPE

I have known a few airmen who were working with HIMS AMEs with lawyers spearheading the effort, that is very common, why would the atty prevent your contact? What did you do? This doesn’t make any sense

I feel like mentioning that there are more people who can chart a course other than you has wounded you, this was not my intention

 

[bbchien]

Laughing... sorry your grapes are so sour.

That poor guy's attorney was profiting from drawing out the correspondence and there was no convincing his attorney because it was his gravy train. He could have been certified three years earlier had he keep hoping that the attorney was going to get him a certificate without having to fill the squares.

The good ones of us know what's needed to get their (agency) concurrence! I think what you're not seeing is that a HIMS AME has to know exactly where the line is between being a consultant, being an examiner, and/or just doing an exam. You don't say a thing or do an exam until it's right. And then it just goes through. First time. No "round and round".

I wish you better times....

 

[SamSES]

Laughing... sorry your grapes are so sour. The good ones of us know what's needed to get their concurrence! I think what you're not seeing is that a HIMS AME has to know exactly where the line is between being a consultant, being an examiner, and/or just doing an exam. You don't say a thing or do an exam until it's right. And then it just goes through. First time. No "round and round".

I wish you better times....

My grapes are not any flavor, and I didn’t mean to block any of your business

So if a kid got put on that when he was 13, didn’t know what the pills were, never told the FAA, fast forward to them being 30 something, to the best of their knowledge they were vitamins and how would the FAA know anyways?

 

[bbchien]

Sam, they have access to the insurance databases if they wish, and for free (part of the Obama care act). Its' a rare family that put their kid on meds off insurance...adderall is about $700/month without insurance. It's all in the pharmacy codes.

The agency views the past history of stimulants as "somebody with a license thinks this one is cognitively abnormal". So the question becomes how abnormal?

If the PCP Rx-er changes his mind, the PCP is just discredited in the eyes of the agency. When the neruocognitive testing is STRONG, I've gotten eligibilty authorization ON THE PHONE. But to do that we have to have "all the necessary" items:

Section 504 records
10 year Rx Record from the vendor
PCP records
Neurocog eval with negative pee test at the end, for stimulants.
It's a great day when the kid walks out with a certificate.....and it can be done.

 

[SamSES]

Sam, they have access to the insurance databases if they wish, and for free (part of the Obama care act). Its' a rare family that put their kid on meds off insurance...adderall is about $700/month without insurance. It's all in the pharmacy codes.

The agency views the past history of stimulants as "somebody with a license thinks this one is cognitively abnormal". So the question becomes how abnormal?

If the PCP Rx-er changes his mind, the PCP is just discredited in the eyes of the agency. When the neruocognitive testing is STRONG, I've gotten eligibilty authorization ON THE PHONE. But to do that we have to have "all the necessary" items:

Section 504 records
10 year Rx Record from the vendor
PCP records
Neurocog eval with negative pee test at the end, for stimulants.
It's a great day when the kid walks out with a certificate.....and it can be done.

Ok, but would that be under the parents records or the kids as far as the databases go?

Is the FAA allowed to snoop his parents insurance records?

 

[Planewithnowings]

Sam, they have access to the insurance databases if they wish, and for free (part of the Obama care act). Its' a rare family that put their kid on meds off insurance...adderall is about $700/month without insurance. It's all in the pharmacy codes.

The agency views the past history of stimulants as "somebody with a license thinks this one is cognitively abnormal". So the question becomes how abnormal?

If the PCP Rx-er changes his mind, the PCP is just discredited in the eyes of the agency. When the neruocognitive testing is STRONG, I've gotten eligibilty authorization ON THE PHONE. But to do that we have to have "all the necessary" items:

Section 504 records
10 year Rx Record from the vendor
PCP records
Neurocog eval with negative pee test at the end, for stimulants.
It's a great day when the kid walks out with a certificate.....and it can be done.

what are the 504 records? Along with PCP records?

what if I do not have a primary? I have my basic hospital records for the past 10 years but it’s not from a day primary

 

[bbchien]

Ok, but would that be under the parents records or the kids as far as the databases go?

it’s all in the kid’s record. The patient IS THE KID.

Is the FAA allowed to snoop his parents insurance records?

Reread 5:22 PM.

 

[midlifeflyer]

And, I'm just laughing. If the case has an attorney interposed and the atty prevents my direct contact with the candidate, I just beg off. There are so many terrible ones out there it's just not worth the trouble. "I'm sorry I'm fully engaged and cannot take this one"....because I am (busier than all get out).

That's both true and unfortunate. The good lawyers know when to be directly involved and when to stay away. In the FAA world, that's not just in the medical arena. In most of my pilot deviation cases, the FAA doesn't even know I'm involved.

 

[dbahn]

Any ideas if there's a way to prevent this unfortunate and common occurrence?

The only practical solution I could envision would require the participation of all CFIs taking on new primary students. There's a window of opportunity there where a little knowledge could go a long way.

In the OP's scenario, does anyone know how much of this documentation would be required for an adolescent who had been on meds for a short duration in the past?

Section 504 records
10 year Rx Record from the vendor
PCP records
Neurocog eval with negative pee test at the end, for stimulants

 

[Planewithnowings]

Any ideas if there's a way to prevent this unfortunate and common occurrence?

The only practical solution I could envision would require the participation of all CFIs taking on new primary students. There's a window of opportunity there where a little knowledge could go a long way.

In the OP's scenario, does anyone know how much of this documentation would be required for an adolescent who had been on meds for a short duration in the past?

that’s what I’m waiting for because all the records I requested already is only 10 years back.

 

[TCABM]

That's both true and unfortunate. The good lawyers know when to be directly involved and when to stay away. In the FAA world, that's not just in the medical arena. In most of my pilot deviation cases, the FAA doesn't even know I'm involved.

And like most things, both SamSES and Doc Bruce can both be correct given certain circumstances. Reality is *most* professionals follow the bell curve and averages are the norm.

I tend to err towards not making a medical history problem a legal problem, which generally starts with being truthful to the best of one’s ability. Edge cases will be edge cases, and those are the ones where knowing where to get the best advice and support thru the process is too hard for the first time applicant.

That’s the sad part.

 

[Petrus_829]

just listen to Dr. Bruce.

 

[kell490]

His parents were prescribed, don’t think you can write a script directly to a child, it would be written onto the parents health insurance if they used insurance




You sure you had ADD, you were a young child, you sure it wasn’t, to the best of your knowledge, just vitamins?

Your friend might have been really trying to help you on this one

I don't have kids but when I was a teen prescriptions were written out in my name handed to my parents to get filled. The bottle of pills had my name on it not my parents. I never heard of someone prescribing medication to parents and not the patient.

My question was related to the fact that if someone was never prescribed anything possible they were never diagnosed which would have made a difference. The OP didn't mention before if they were ever prescribed. Now that the OP said they were prescribed they have to jump though the FAA hoops.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Any ideas if there's a way to prevent this unfortunate and common occurrence?

The only practical solution I could envision would require the participation of all CFIs taking on new primary students. There's a window of opportunity there where a little knowledge could go a long way.

One would hope (but would not wager) that a CFI has enough understanding of Part 67 issues to tell a student to go through the application without submitting it and arrange a consult on any "yes" answer. Even then, I can see students disregarding that advice thinking, "oh, I'm sure this is nothing."

 

[dbahn]

One would hope (but would not wager) that a CFI has enough understanding of Part 67 issues to tell a student to go through the application without submitting it and arrange a consult on any "yes" answer. Even then, I can see students disregarding that advice thinking, "oh, I'm sure this is nothing."

That would be my hope as well, but I know a number of young CFIs that are well trained as pilots but don't seem to be aware of some of the medical pitfalls since they weren't personally impacted by them.