Mental Health advice

[JacksonPiker]

Hi at 16 I took adhd meds for a couple months and maybe also when I was 7ish im not entirely sure. My parents were ****ed I was getting C's in school. I took prozac also for a few month for depression. later at 19 I suffered from OCD intrusive thoughts and saw a psychiatrist and took prozac for another month and stopped. He told me I probably cannot fly because of my record. I stopped seeing him because I was worried about messing up my future. I was in the early stages of applying for military pilot program but I dont think I have any chance of passing the medical do to my mental health history. I really don't think I had adhd but the other stuff I did have. Am I wrong to think I cant fly professionally at all? I dont need medication to function it just makes me happier. I have not been on it for two years and wont be on it. Honestly I wish I never saw doctors at all It seems I cant follow my goals now because I saw them. Is civilian route probable, possible?

 

[bbchien]

You have a recurrent disorder. FAA denies 100% of recurrent disease untreated and unmonitored- why? Because it will again. Heck it already has.

It would appear that your only path forward is treated and monitored.....see attachments. It requires continued care by a local psychiatrist.....persistence, and patience.....and the evaluative consultants AREN'T CHEAP.

 

[JacksonPiker]

You have a recurrent disorder. FASA denies 100% of recurrent disease untreated and unmonitored- why? Because it will again. Heck it already has.

It would appear that your only path forward is treated and monitored.....see attachments. It requires continued care by a local psychiatrist.....persistence, and patience.....and the evaluative consultants AREN'T CHEAP.

is ADHD the one you think is recurrent? I have heard you can "test" out of ADHD.

 

[JacksonPiker]

You have a recurrent disorder. FASA denies 100% of recurrent disease untreated and unmonitored- why? Because it will again. Heck it already has.

It would appear that your only path forward is treated and monitored.....see attachments. It requires continued care by a local psychiatrist.....persistence, and patience.....and the evaluative consultants AREN'T CHEAP.

I dont think I need medication though, im normal enough.

 

[Dana]

I dont think I need medication though, im normal enough.

You may be right, but it doesn't matter what you think; what matters is what your doctors (more specifically, psychiatrists acceptable to the FAA) think.

My brother in law doesn't think he needs medication, either... but every time he stops taking them he ends up in restraints in a psych ward.

 

[Anthem]

is ADHD the one you think is recurrent? I have heard you can "test" out of ADHD.

It’s actually not the adhd is my guess. I think the recurrent is anything that doesn’t happen just once. So you having depression multiple times and taking Prozac is the “recurrent” part. And just because you aren’t on it now - doesn’t mean you can stay off of it. So the FAA will want you to go through pathway II to be on it. You can’t say I’m off it now - and they accept and believe you will stay off because you haven’t. That’s what the doctor meant.

 

[Half Fast]

I took prozac also for a few month for depression.

OCD intrusive thoughts and saw a psychiatrist and took prozac for another month and stopped.

but the other stuff I did have.

All that adds up to recurrent disease, and...

I dont need medication to function it just makes me happier. I have not been on it for two years and wont be on it.

...that means it’s untreated. (It also has a ring of denial.)

It seems I cant follow my goals now

The FAA’s task is not to help you fulfill your goals; it is to ensure aviation safety.

Is civilian route probable, possible?

Yes, it’s po$$ible, but will take much time and be quite expen$ive. Also, remember that getting your medical and pilot’s certificates does not guarantee employment as a pilot.

 

[JacksonPiker]

You may be right, but it doesn't matter what you think; what matters is what your doctors (more specifically, psychiatrists acceptable to the FAA) think.

My brother in law doesn't think he needs medication, either... but every time he stops taking them he ends up in restraints in a psych ward.

ya thats not me

 

[JacksonPiker]

It’s actually not the adhd is my guess. I think the recurrent is anything that doesn’t happen just once. So you having depression multiple times and taking Prozac is the “recurrent” part. And just because you aren’t on it now - doesn’t mean you can stay off of it. So the FAA will want you to go through pathway II to be on it. You can’t say I’m off it now - and they accept and believe you will stay off because you haven’t. That’s what the doctor meant.

So I have to take prozac even though I havent for two years and dont want to and dont need to??

 

[Half Fast]

So I have to take prozac even though I havent for two years and dont want to and dont need to??

Has a doctor acceptable to the FAA told you the prozac isn't needed? Your personal opinion doesn't matter, and in fact your apparent willingness to make medical decisions based on your own personal opinion is a big problem in the eyes of the FAA.

On top of the recurrent depression, you still will need to overcome the ADHD diagnosis. ADHD is disqualifying, so you will need to prove you don't have it, and that will take time and money and testing.

The OCD intrusive thoughts is another red flag for the FAA. Imagine the consequence of uncontrollable intrusive thoughts distracting you from control of an aircraft.

Try to understand that this is NOT about what you want, and it's NOT about what you think regarding medications. It's about what can be proven to the FAA regarding your ability to control an aircraft safely. Your personal opinion does not constitute proof.

 

[Anthem]

So I have to take prozac even though I havent for two years and dont want to and dont need to??

You've proven that you cant stay off of it. So they arent going to accept your word for it at this point. Your history indicates that this is recurrent. 2 years is not a lot of time to make a determination as to whether you need to be on it or not.

What it comes down to - is that this is their playground or sandbox or whatever you want to call it. Play by their rules if you want to play. You dont get to make the rules if you want to play in their box.

 

[StraightnLevel]

I'm just going to drop this here for review:

FAA Amends Mental Health Evaluation Criteria For Pilots - AVweb

A history of no more than two mental health diagnoses no longer requires automatic review by the FAA for any class of pilot certificate as long as certain criteria are met. The agency has revised its guidance to AMEs on “uncomplicated anxiety, depression and related conditions” and chief among...

www.avweb.com

 

[Half Fast]

I'm just going to drop this here for review:

FAA Amends Mental Health Evaluation Criteria For Pilots - AVweb

A history of no more than two mental health diagnoses no longer requires automatic review by the FAA for any class of pilot certificate as long as certain criteria are met. The agency has revised its guidance to AMEs on “uncomplicated anxiety, depression and related conditions” and chief among...

www.avweb.com

Thanks. Review shows this:

A. Up to TWO listed conditions treated with any combination of: ...​

I count three conditions for the OP: depression, OCD, and ADHD. Also,

DO NOT USE THIS ROW IF (go to row B):​

⊗ Previously on an SI/SC for SSRI use;​

⊗ Recurrent episodes or symptoms. If the individual had multiple failed attempts to discontinue or stay off medication(s) over any period;​

​

Finally, note item #6 on the questionnaire.

 

[JacksonPiker]

You've proven that you cant stay off of it. So they arent going to accept your word for it at this point. Your history indicates that this is recurrent. 2 years is not a lot of time to make a determination as to whether you need to be on it or not.

What it comes down to - is that this is their playground or sandbox or whatever you want to call it. Play by their rules if you want to play. You dont get to make the rules if you want to play in their box.

ive taken it 4 month in total in my life. That means I CANT stay off it? I was never even recommended to take it I just asked if I could to see how it works. I guess thats how the FAA sees it. Second time I took it to feel better.

 

[JacksonPiker]

Has a doctor acceptable to the FAA told you the prozac isn't needed? Your personal opinion doesn't matter, and in fact your apparent willingness to make medical decisions based on your own personal opinion is a big problem in the eyes of the FAA.

On top of the recurrent depression, you still will need to overcome the ADHD diagnosis. ADHD is disqualifying, so you will need to prove you don't have it, and that will take time and money and testing.

The OCD intrusive thoughts is another red flag for the FAA. Imagine the consequence of uncontrollable intrusive thoughts distracting you from control of an aircraft.

Try to understand that this is NOT about what you want, and it's NOT about what you think regarding medications. It's about what can be proven to the FAA regarding your ability to control an aircraft safely. Your personal opinion does not constitute proof.

they never told me it was needed I requested it.

 

[JacksonPiker]

You have a recurrent disorder. FASA denies 100% of recurrent disease untreated and unmonitored- why? Because it will again. Heck it already has.

It would appear that your only path forward is treated and monitored.....see attachments. It requires continued care by a local psychiatrist.....persistence, and patience.....and the evaluative consultants AREN'T CHEAP.

Hi my confusion is are you saying I should start back taking prozac? I have not taken it in two years. Wondering what I should do.

 

[JacksonPiker]

You may be right, but it doesn't matter what you think; what matters is what your doctors (more specifically, psychiatrists acceptable to the FAA) think.

My brother in law doesn't think he needs medication, either... but every time he stops taking them he ends up in restraints in a psych ward.

my psychiatrist says he thinks I should be able to fly.

 

[Dana]

Your posts certainly read like someone who does have ADHD. The first response to your first post from Dr. Chien is the answer; he is THE expert on this subject. As I said (and you must have read it because you quoted me twice), it doesn't matter what you think; your only path forward is through a HIMS psychiatrist and a "difficult case AME" like Dr. Chien. Or choose a path that requires no medical, like light-sport, gliders, or ultralights.

 

[Anthem]

Common problem here. . OP is reading what he wants to read after many people are telling him his situation is otherwise. It doesnt matter what your doc, or your psychiatrist it says to a certain extent. They want an aviation psych doctors opinion and report - not yours. If you want to use yours - then use yours to do sport. Their sandbox - play by their rules.

 

[bbchien]

JacksonPiker:
NOT MEDICAL ADVICE, but CERTIFICATION ADVICE:
It doesn't matter what you think or your local Psychiatrist or your family doc thinks: They are talking about NOW.
FAA is about FUTURE. The Relapse frequency goes wayy down even on a teeny dose of one of the seven meds. That is why they wnat you monitored and treated.

Remember, FAA issues you ahead of your subsequent flying and possible subsequent p_ss poor performance. The want to know that the chance that early relapse contributed...is near zero.

SO, if you continue beating your chest and apply as you are, I suggest, that you write again, after the denial.

 

[Half Fast]

they never told me it was needed I requested it.

No doctor will put you on a psychotropic drug without documenting a diagnosis. Do you realize what sort of liability the doctor would incur? It matters not one iota whether you "requested it" or not; they don't hand these things out unless they enter some sort of diagnosis to establish a valid medical reason. Without lots of verifiable data to the contrary, the FAA is going to trust that diagnosis.

Look, you need to stop insisting that this should all be the way you want it to be. You seem to be ignoring what we're trying to tell you (which makes me think the ADHD might be real). Face the reality of the situation and the FAA's authority. The FAA has to be convinced, by data and physicians acceptable to the FAA, that you can safely operate an aircraft. Your opinion, and the opinions of doctors not vetted by the FAA, don't mean a bloody thing in this circumstance.

OP is reading what he wants to read after many people are telling him his situation is otherwise.

 

[JacksonPiker]

JacksonPiker:
NOT MEDICAL ADVICE, but CERTIFICATION ADVICE:
It doesn't matter what you think or your local Psychiatrist or your family doc thinks: They are talking about NOW.
FAA is about FUTURE. The Relapse frequency goes wayy down even on a teeny dose of one of the seven meds. That is why they wnat you monitored and treated.

Remember, FAA issues you ahead of your subsequent flying and possible subsequent p_ss poor performance. The want to know that the chance that early relapse contributed...is near zero.

SO, if you continue beating your chest and apply as you are, I suggest, that you write again, after the denial.

Ok thank you I understand now, would you recommend I try to get documentation I no longer am in a depressed or whatever state from professional? I will talk to doctor about going back on prozac. I see the relapse issue. Are we talking 5-20 mg. I took 10 and I thought it was helpful.

 

[JacksonPiker]

JacksonPiker:
NOT MEDICAL ADVICE, but CERTIFICATION ADVICE:
It doesn't matter what you think or your local Psychiatrist or your family doc thinks: They are talking about NOW.
FAA is about FUTURE. The Relapse frequency goes wayy down even on a teeny dose of one of the seven meds. That is why they wnat you monitored and treated.

Remember, FAA issues you ahead of your subsequent flying and possible subsequent p_ss poor performance. The want to know that the chance that early relapse contributed...is near zero.

SO, if you continue beating your chest and apply as you are, I suggest, that you write again, after the denial.

also given it will cost thousands of dollars should I bother applying or is it very likely I will be denied given past.

 

[sky7]

also given it will cost thousands of dollars should I bother applying or is it very likely I will be denied given past.

Dana mentioned light sport, and if you don’t want to commit a year and thousands of dollars for certification I would tend to agree. Just know that if you attempt certification and it ends up denied for whatever reason, light sport is no longer an option. And you have to self certify, if for any reason you do not believe you can fly safely then even light sport is a no-go.

 

[JacksonPiker]

Dana mentioned light sport, and if you don’t want to commit a year and thousands of dollars for certification I would tend to agree. Just know that if you attempt certification and it ends up denied for whatever reason, light sport is no longer an option. And you have to self certify, if for any reason you do not believe you can fly safely then even light sport is a no-go.

what about basic med?

 

[Anthem]

Have you done your research on BM ? Namely have you ever held a class 1/2/3 medical after July of 2006 ? If no - that’s your answer

 

[Half Fast]

what about basic med?

It requires that you have held a class 3 medical sometime since 2006. You can’t start with Basic Med, you can only switch to it later.

 

[Excellent-]

Hi my confusion is are you saying I should start back taking prozac? I have not taken it in two years. Wondering what I should do.

Hi I have the same problem. I haven’t taken anything for two years and now they ask me to take it. All my psy evolutions including the FAA ones are normal.

 

[JacksonPiker]

Hi I have the same problem. I haven’t taken anything for two years and now they ask me to take it. All my psy evolutions including the FAA ones are normal.

Do you have an email or anything? Im wondering how those evaluations go.

 

[BillTIZ]

Your posts certainly read like someone who does have ADHD. The first response to your first post from Dr. Chien is the answer; he is THE expert on this subject. As I said (and you must have read it because you quoted me twice), it doesn't matter what you think; your only path forward is through a HIMS psychiatrist and a "difficult case AME" like Dr. Chien. Or choose a path that requires no medical, like light-sport, gliders, or ultralights.

We are dealing with an individual with similar issues... I'm not a pysch, but it is referred to as adult ADHD. No focus on study or completing required instructor provided tests, "pre solo", aircraft specific POH Study, etc. Individual has admitted he has problems, but just wants to fly. When we try to sit quiet and let him fly as "PIC" at his request, his flying is very sloppy, cannot execute the required maneuvers correctly. Lines up on the wrong landing surface, when brought to his attention he comments he will fix it, then doesn't. Instructor takes over.

This individual will never solo at our location.

Please don't tell people they can go fly something that does not require a medical. They still need to "self certify" that they are medically safe to fly. But they are not safe and they don't see it. Others need to tell them to "find another hobby".

 

[JacksonPiker]

We are dealing with an individual with similar issues... I'm not a pysch, but it is referred to as adult ADHD. No focus on study or completing required instructor provided tests, "pre solo", aircraft specific POH Study, etc. Individual has admitted he has problems, but just wants to fly. When we try to sit quiet and let him fly as "PIC" at his request, his flying is very sloppy, cannot execute the required maneuvers correctly. Lines up on the wrong landing surface, when brought to his attention he comments he will fix it, then doesn't. Instructor takes over.

This individual will never solo at our location.

Please don't tell people they can go fly something that does not require a medical. They still need to "self certify" that they are medically safe to fly. But they are not safe and they don't see it. Others need to tell them to "find another hobby".

don't assume I am that guy. There are valedictorians with adhd diagnosis anyone can get a diagnosis. Its pretty much a cultural thing for helicopter parents to assume their kid has adhd when they get Cs

 

[Anthem]

don't assume I am that guy. There are valedictorians with adhd diagnosis anyone can get a diagnosis. Its pretty much a cultural thing for helicopter parents to assume their kid has adhd when they get Cs

So you are a valedictorian of your high school that somehow got a diagnosis because you had helicopter parents that saw you get C’s ? Though I presume getting even one C in high school would eliminate you being valedictorian these days. Or are you saying - /other/ people (as in not you) are valedictorians with a diagnosis (and can easily test out of it because you only have to test that you are above the bottom 15% or a cognitive normal person ). Because most valedictorians are able to really focus and get down to the discipline required to be valedictorian - and probably don’t actually have it. Which is different than a diagnosis of actually having it.

 

[JacksonPiker]

So you are a valedictorian of your high school that somehow got a diagnosis because you had helicopter parents that saw you get C’s ? Though I presume getting even one C in high school would eliminate you being valedictorian these days. Or are you saying - /other/ people (as in not you) are valedictorians with a diagnosis (and can easily test out of it because you only have to test that you are above the bottom 15% or a cognitive normal person ). Because most valedictorians are able to really focus and get down to the discipline required to be valedictorian - and probably don’t actually have it. Which is different than a diagnosis of actually having it.

Im saying lots of people are very "normal" who have adhd on paper. But yes my parents encouraged me to think I have adhd and see a doctor because I got a C- in chemistry, but no I am not a valedictorian. However it is diagnosed so much that people who are actually above average have it and people who are normal have it. Google American vs French ADHD rate its insane. I got a 1330 on my SAT so I doubt I am bottom 15% of the population for whatever cognition exam.
I know engineering majors with "adhd" but somehow they are getting a degree in mechanical engineering and doing well. I guarantee you there are cases of valedictorians having adhd and harvard students having it or whatever. Furthermore the adhd rate is much higher in children then adults so it doesn't even seem like a real disease if you are only in attentive and hyper active when a literal child.

 

[Anthem]

so it comes down to ****ty parenting, right ? If thats what your parents did and you dont have it - perhaps you should take it up with them to cover your costs to test that you dont have it. . .

But I think you are potentially conflating two things - one is having a diagnosis for it, and the other is actually having it. I doubt there are many valedictorians (or any) or many Harvard students actually having it. Could they have had a diagnosis of it ? Absolutely. How that relates to the FAA - well you have to prove that you dont have it, or score above the bottom 15% while OFF of adhd meds before the FAA will give you their blessing.

 

[jbarrass]

There's an interesting perspective in the book: "The ADHD Advantage: What You Thought Was a Diagnosis May Be Your Greatest Strength" by Dale Archer MD

If you don't want to read the whole book, at least read the Foreword by Dr. Allen Frances, Chair of the DSM-IV Task Force. The FAA disagrees I imagine.

 

[JacksonPiker]

so it comes down to ****ty parenting, right ? If thats what your parents did and you dont have it - perhaps you should take it up with them to cover your costs to test that you dont have it. . .

But I think you are potentially conflating two things - one is having a diagnosis for it, and the other is actually having it. I doubt there are many valedictorians (or any) or many Harvard students actually having it. Could they have had a diagnosis of it ? Absolutely. How that relates to the FAA - well you have to prove that you dont have it, or score above the bottom 15% while OFF of adhd meds before the FAA will give you their blessing.

ya disappointing about all the money for the tests but thats life ig.