medical and bad prescription reaction...

[kell490]

Another relevant point is that you do not need a medical certificate to become a private-pilot with a glider rating. See 14 CFR 61.23(b)(1)(ii) and 61.23(b)(3):

(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate -

(1) When exercising the privileges of a student pilot certificate while seeking -

(i) A sport pilot certificate with glider or balloon privileges; or

(ii) A pilot certificate with a glider category rating or balloon class rating;

(2) When exercising the privileges of a sport pilot certificate with privileges in a glider or balloon;

(3) When exercising the privileges of a pilot certificate with a glider category rating or balloon class rating in a glider or a balloon, as appropriate;​

Yes I assumed that the OP knew a medical wasn't required for a Glider, but that also brings me to another thought. Light sport is limited to 10k feet that would be a no go for the light sport glider endorsement route. Like I said it only means have to get a PPL glider written test and 10 hours of glider flight time with a CFI and without. Where the endorsement bypasses the written test not really that much different.

The OP indicated spending money on this isn't really a factor passing the medical is more about spending the money on a HIMS neuropsychology and HIMS psychiatry eval.

It seems logically the OP would want to get those test done before filling out the FAA forms verify those test above are passable that way light sport is still a possibility if the testing results not as expected.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

How many times does it have to be said, you cannot go basic med without having held an faa medical. People please learn the rules before committing on this subject.

If you'd controlled yourself long enough to read the rest of the thread, you'd see I corrected myself.

 

[FJJ]

Ok OP, we started with a Ritalin event, which seems to me, if you do and pass the required steps will get you a medical. Then after the docs comment we find a repeated history of mental health consults with at least one med (Wellbutrin) taken for a period of time. It would really help to have all the potential issues up front rather than bit and piece at a time. Have you taken other drugs for mental issues? What else is going on, heart issues, dui, criminal issues? For the type of flying you describe, light sport or ultralight would be fine. But please make good decisions if you pursue flying.

I struggled with how much detail to put into my post. It was already so long I tried to limit it to the things I felt most confused about. For example, I know the FAA doesn't like Wellbutrin and I would need to cease it before doing a medical (which I could do without much impact. It helps my motivation a little, but just slightly more than the way people like to drink caffeine in the morning).

No, I've never had a dui or criminal issues. I don't care for alcohol, only been 'drunk' ~5 times in my entire life. I don't like to j-walk. I'm a capital-R Rule Follower. I'm a workaholic computer geek who was lucky enough to start a company at 27 and sell it at 30, grow out of the geek enough to marry a wonderful wife 12 years ago. Now I have two kids 8/10. I'm an athletic retired young dad who plays a few too many computer games. I learned to do 180s on skis last winter. I'm out there to enjoy life and help the world.

I fully agree with other sentiment in your message.. that aside the procedural issue of whether one can pass a medical or get a sport license is secondary to the more important issue of whether one will be a good and safe pilot. I've read a ton, and watched hours and hours of NTSB fatality investigations, trying to understand what caused airplane fatalities, and whether I can 100% avoid being like these crash victims. Because I'm not going to bother taking a lesson until I feel reasonable sure that, given the right training, I can be a safe pilot.

I'm not leaving my kids fatherless because of my own inability to assess my capabilities or accept my limitations. That's unforgivable. I'm not even sure it's forgivable if I pick up a sport that could kill me at all, even if it's an entirely freak accident. I will need to feel it can be nearly as safe as leisure riding a motorcycle. And since the general statistics say GA is 4x more dangerous than motorcycling per hour, that means I need to convince myself that there is zero chance I will fall into huge swaths of fatal mistakes.

Along these lines, I have a question.. in your (anyone's) opinion....

To be safe, does a private pilot need to be ultra calm, attentive, and in a good state to fly 100% of the time, every day, even when not flying... because it's the most reliable way to make sure that the pilot is in that state on every flying day? (this is how my navy ATC brother-in-law is, and I certainly am not)

Or can a private pilot be aware enough of their state to know when they are "off" (sick, tired, distracted thinking about important stuff) and shouldn't fly, and when they are "focused" and "on" and it would be a good day to fly? (which I certainly am, as I apply this kind of thinking in everything I do)

-------

As for the "history of mental health consults"...

Outside the world of FAA-class-3-medical, and especially in my family, seeing a mental health professional (therapist / psychiatrist) for tricky life events is a positive choice, not a negative one. My mother has a counselling degree, so we were always encouraged to talk-it-out with an impartial therapist.

This is a problem the FAA is wrangling with right now, as aside the issue of whether any particular pilot *should* be flying, allowing them to get mental health care without fear could potentially help them be better pilots than the are without the care (which is the practical state we are in). I'd personally rather a stressed out pilot be taking a day off in a therapist office not afraid to lose his job, than flying my commercial flight because he's afraid to.

I keep ongoing check-ins with my long-term therapist 2-3 times a year, because in the past talking to him has helped me keep things in perspective to make tens of millions of dollars. And because I cut ties with my father at age 15. And because I don't have many people I can talk to about financial events in my life. And because, why not? Sometimes I get him on a 45 minute call, and in 5 minutes I tell him everything is great and I don't have anything to talk about. As long as I'm just talking and not getting medications, there is literally no downside to talking to my therapist. It's not like his chair is going to have a structural failure and end up in an NTSB report. Flying has dangers, talk-therapy, at worst it's a small waste of time, at best it's helpful. The financial cost of the appointment doesn't matter to me.

I've never touched a world where there is any "stigma" around seeing a therapist, until this class-3-medical thing.

So you might be thinking.... "what does this dude have to talk to a therapist about, if nothing is wrong?"

Here is a recent example, and I'm sorry if this somehow feels bad or boastful. I don't mean it to be. I just want to talk about reality, and also demonstrate why I can't just talk to my ski buddies or the other parents I met through my kids sports about my life stress. A startup I invested in IPOed, and last November (at the market peak) my position was worth $17M. I didn't sell. Today, it's worth just over $3M. In a way, in the course of 3 months, I lost $14 million dollars, or some sizable chunk of that. This is not life altering for me, but is pretty noticeable. One can buy a heck of a nice hangar of fun airplanes for $14M. So you can imagine, I had some pretty strong emotions about this when I realized their stock crash was not transitory, but that I'd missed the big window to cash out. So I talked to my therapist about it. Because, well, it's unpleasant. And because it's healthier for my marriage to unload some of that on my therapist instead of my wife.

My therapist appointments are not indicative of a problem safety flying an airplane. If anything, the decision to talk to a therapist to process emotional stress, instead of participating in avoidance or dangerous behavior, is the extremely healthy ego-less choice. In my life, I have *nothing* to lose by talking to a therapist, even *unnecessarily* -- except apparently a better chance at an FAA-class-3-medical.

-----

As for the "explaining everything"...

If I filled out the class-3 medical today, assuming I got the questions right, it would look like this:

Medications in 6 months (allegra - infrequently for pet allergies, sudafed - for a sinus cold, albuterol sulfate - infrequently for allergy and sickness induced asthma, wellbutrin - which keeps me more motivated, but I could also stop taking) -- Doctor visits in 3 years (dentist, general doctor for physical and albuterol rx, bi-monthly checkins with my long term therapist who writes the Wellbutrin) -- ER visits ever (age 9 asthma attack at diagnosis, age ~32 kidney stones, age 36? - the explained ritalin event). -- Smoking? Never. Drinking. 2 drinks a month, over my entire adult life. Ever had substance abuse issues? No, never. Every taken prescription opiods? Yes, for kidney stones. Threw out most of them. Ever been accused or convicted of a non-traffic crime? no. Physical health issues? Mild Asthma. 2x kidney stones. elevated cholesterol. Stature? Fit and Athletic. Cardio health? Excellent. Eyesight? Nearsighted -3/-2.75. Slight astigmatism. Vision with corrective lenses? Excellent. Do I need bifocals to read? No. (not yet, but maybe in 3-5 years)

Any mental health diagnosis? Acute health events?..... This is where my complexity lies. So this is what I asked about.

I have two acute mental health events that led to seeing a doctor.. the one I explained where I kinda detached when my son was born, and in the process of trying to un-detached, I got a bad ritalin prescription. The other was an acute stress period exaggerated by lack of sleep during the most stressful part of my startup, for which a few days taking a sleep-aid (clonazapam) helped reset my sleep and got me back on track, I kept the prescription as-needed for 6-10 months, but didn't take much of it. I wasn't worried about the latter raising any eyebrows.

I didn't ask here about Wellbutrin, because I already know the answer.. the FAA doesn't like it. So if I wanted C3-medical, I would just stop taking it for six months and apply without listing it. Which I would totally do if that was the only issue.

 

[kell490]

Find a good AME get a consult that will be what you use to decide the path PPL or Light Sport. I can see you have done lot of internet research that's great for information gathering, but I would not use it to make a final decision. Rumor is the FAA might announce something at Oshkosh this year with regard to changing the light sport rules to allow larger aircraft. I wouldn't be in too much of a rush only a few weeks away that might make a difference in what direction you go in.

 

[OneCharlieTango]

A couple of people have recommended Sport Pilot, but you said in the OP that you wanted an IFR rating. You can’t do that with SP. You also can’t fly anything with more than 2 seats.

But, like Kell490 said, things may change at Oshkosh.

 

[Lindberg]

I've never touched a world where there is any "stigma" around seeing a therapist, until this class-3-medical thing.

The FAA has been clear (even in the Medxpress instructions) that therapy is not even reportable unless it relates to a a personal psychiatric diagnosis. So just going to counseling because you need a sympathetic third party to discuss stressful life issues with isn't even reportable. Rather, much of the stigma associated with such things actually comes from ignorance and bad advice on forums like this one.

But psychiatric diagnoses are reportable, and you likely have one associated with your Wellbutrin. So you'll have to deal with that.

 

[FJJ]

Find a good AME get a consult that will be what you use to decide the path PPL or Light Sport. I can see you have done lot of internet research that's great for information gathering, but I would not use it to make a final decision.

Absolutely.I really appreciate the information I gained here, and I can see the path to evaluate PP-C3-medical is to get a "consult" with an AME/lawyer, who will probably recommend a "consult "with HIMS neurophysiology (which i'm sure i'll pass) and HIMS psychiatry eval to see what the official submitted records would show.

My current plan is to get into PP-qualified training (so it can count either as LS or PP) and see how much I enjoy it, and how I feel about it. Probably solo Light Sport, and then consider the above C-3 medical path.

I only wrote up that last long-winded post because of PaulS's implication that I was somehow not sharing "everything".. and I didn't want to leave that impression.

The FAA has been clear (even in the Medxpress instructions) that therapy is not even reportable unless it relates to a a personal psychiatric diagnosis. So just going to counseling because you need a sympathetic third party to discuss stressful life issues with isn't even reportable. Rather, much of the stigma associated with such things actually comes from ignorance and bad advice on forums like this one.[/quoote]

That's very good to hear. I did get that mis-impression from PaulS's comment.

If I knew back-then, what I know now, I would have started with a certified therapist or phd psychologist from the outset long ago, and I never would have been prescribed any medication. Inside the an M.D. psychiatrist office, medication is just offered very freely. In particular, the doctor who prescribed me the ritalin was a psychopharmacologist, actually said something to the effect of "we don't really know what works for people or why, so we just try something, and if it doesn't work, we try something else." Boy do I wish I never went to see him.

Rumor is the FAA might announce something at Oshkosh this year with regard to changing the light sport rules to allow larger aircraft. I wouldn't be in too much of a rush only a few weeks away that might make a difference in what direction you go in.

Thank you! This is exceptionally good news. Having access to common rental/club Cessnas and the like with Sport Pilot would really change things. I will be watching for it.

My wife seems to have clued in on my passion here, as this morning she excitedly shared videos she just took of a Cessna water-takeoff and a powered hang-glider that both occurred right near our house while I was sleeping-in getting over a nasty cold.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Another option you have, if you $s aren't much of an object, is to learn all you want and progress as far as you can without a medical, but hire a commercial pilot to fly the plane of your dreams with you as the PIC.

 

[PaulS]

I only wrote up that last long-winded post because of PaulS's implication that I was somehow not sharing "everything".. and I didn't want to leave that impression.

That wasn't an implication, it's what you did, it was a big thing you left out. Unfortunately I think you will have more trouble with the Wellbutrin than the Ritalin. The underlying diagnosis that led to the Wellbutrin prescription is mostly likely a bigger deal than the drug itself. (but I'm not a doctor.)

What you need to do if you are serious about this is to schedule a consult with an AME who deals regularly with airmen who have issues like yours. Two have responded here, Dr. Fowler and Dr. Chien. Both would review your information and both are excellent. Dr. Chien has a website that in his signature where he spells out how to engage with him, Dr Fowler (lbfjrmd) has his email in his posts. The important thing for you to consider is that the best way to work with these guys is to spill it all up front, whether you think it is important or not, that way they can give you the best answer and a path forward if there is one.

Also, I'm not trying to scold you here, just trying to help. I would seriously consider doing a consult for a fee and get answers you can trust over responses from the internet which could be right or wrong.

 

[TCABM]

…To be safe, does a private pilot need to be ultra calm, attentive, and in a good state to fly 100% of the time, every day, even when not flying... because it's the most reliable way to make sure that the pilot is in that state on every flying day? (this is how my navy ATC brother-in-law is, and I certainly am not)

Or can a private pilot be aware enough of their state to know when they are "off" (sick, tired, distracted thinking about important stuff) and shouldn't fly, and when they are "focused" and "on" and it would be a good day to fly? (which I certainly am, as I apply this kind of thinking in everything I do)…

Safe is relative, but honesty with the situation and being able to manage the five hazardous attitudes goes a long way towards preventing mishaps.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media.../flight-training-magazine/hazardous-attitudes

…I didn't ask here about Wellbutrin, because I already know the answer.. the FAA doesn't like it. So if I wanted C3-medical, I would just stop taking it for six months and apply without listing it. Which I would totally do if that was the only issue.

And that post could be demonstrative of one of those attitudes.

 

[FJJ]

Safe is relative, but honesty with the situation and being able to manage the five hazardous attitudes goes a long way towards preventing mishaps.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media.../flight-training-magazine/hazardous-attitudes

Thanks for that link. This is an exellent view into how to be safe with anything.

And that post could be demonstrative of one of those attitudes.

I understand why you say this, and i hear your comment as a helpful warning. I don't believe my thinking comes from one of those places, but i agree it's important to be careful about self assesment blindness.

This seems like a good reason to get the HIMS consults even if they are not necessary for sport pilot.. because even if we felt it was not guaranteed enough i could receive class 3 medical, im particular a HIMS neurocognitive eval would provide insight into how i would handle the demands of flying. That's an excellent idea, as the cost is not an issue, and like my earlier analogy, there is zero risk of ending up in an NTSB fatality report during a HIMS eval.

Thanks for encouraging that conclusion.

And as suggested by another post, and one of my friends, CFI time is very affordable to me, so i can also have the safety benefit of having a copilot for as long as i want, even forever if i felt this was justified.

Thanks again for not only the encouragement, but also the challenges and concerns.

It reminds me of the fatal oshkosh water takeoff, where at least 4 or 5 people cautioned the pilot not to depart in the high winds and heavy chop. It seems fine and forgivable for him to have a different opinion, but in the face of 4-5 experienced people telling him no, his job was to merely accept he might not see something they could and choose the safer path. Tragically he didnt.

I very much plan to take the safer (safe enough?) Path, even if that means never flying at all.