Mechanic madness

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Gone Flyin

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Gone Flyin
After more than a month of hell from these two mechanics I'm hoping to get my log book signoff tomorrow.

Now, I'm being told, I will get an annual signoff from the IA and a 100 hour signoff from the AP who actually did all the inspection work.

Is this correct in that this is a my private plane, not used for hire, and does this (100 hour thing) affect me in any way going forward?

Thanks
 
An A&P cannot sign-off an Annual but CAN sign-off a 100-hr. The IA must sign-off your Annual Inspection.

There's actually no such thing as an annual on an engine or propeller; those should be 100-hr entries.

I don't see anything unusual about the two sign-offs.

Glad you'll be getting your airplane back soon!
 
Find yourself and A&P-IA so they can sign off their own annual inspections.

If you own a Piper Cherokee (PA-28 or PA-32), having too many 100-hour inspections in your logbook, will make you subject to the VERY onerous AD.2020-26-16 Wing Spar Inspection.
 
An AI has to be an A&P first, correct? So, he should be signing off the whole deal not asking the A&P to do part of it.

I'm concerned this 100 hour signoff will come back to haunt me later on. Will someone question why it's there?

Why is the engine and prop 100 hour if, in my case, I'm only required to get the yearly annual?
 
My IA puts an entry in the airframe logbook as an annual. The entries in the engine and prop logbooks are 100 hour as there is no entry required for an annual. Heck, there's no requirement to have a separate engine or prop logbook. You'd be fine without the 100 hour entry.
 
Gone Flyin said:
An AI has to be an A&P first, correct? So, he should be signing off the whole deal not asking the A&P to do part of it.

I'm concerned this 100 hour signoff will come back to haunt me later on. Will someone question why it's there?

Why is the engine and prop 100 hour if, in my case, I'm only required to get the yearly annual?
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Instead of venting on an internet forum, have you considered just going in and having a discussion with the IA that performed the inspection?
 
Doc Holliday said:
Instead of venting on an internet forum, have you considered just going in and having a discussion with the IA that performed the inspection?
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Like I said, the AI never inspected my plane. He had the A&P do it all.
 
IA can’t supervise an annual inspection.. they have to perform it.

§ 65.95 Inspection authorization: Privileges and limitations.

(a) The holder of an inspection authorization may -

(2) Perform an annual, or perform or supervise a progressive inspection according to §§ 43.13 and 43.15 of this chapter.
 
I could see that a Shop might want to have two entries in the Logbooks and actually have two people perform the inspections. If there is every any question if a particular inspection is done they can say they had two separate people perform and Log that the inspections were completed.

Brian
 
It sounds like you are a fairly new Owner?

You may want to explain the “hell” and familiarize yourself with the various options to the process.

As others have said; the IA cannot delegate the INSPECTION .

It is popular to have an A & P prep the airplane though.

This might speed up the the procedure and actually reduce costs.

You do not want to pay for an IA to open panels and run the vacuum cleaner.

The tools primarily used by by the IA are a flashlight, mirror ,computer and a few

special tools.

Discrepancies may be addressed by the A & P.

The Owner can also perform any task while under the direct supervision

of an A & P who is permitted to do so.
 
Domenick said:
Find yourself and A&P-IA so they can sign off their own annual inspections.

If you own a Piper Cherokee (PA-28 or PA-32), having too many 100-hour inspections in your logbook, will make you subject to the VERY onerous AD.2020-26-16 Wing Spar Inspection.
Click to expand...

The 5000 hours time in service would be the logical reference IMO...although they do mention the 100 hour inspections.

How often can you perform an annual inspection....anytime the owner requests one.
 
Gone Flyin said:
Now, I'm being told, I will get an annual signoff from the IA and a 100 hour signoff from the AP who actually did all the inspection work.
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Gone Flyin said:
Like I said, the AI never inspected my plane. He had the A&P do it all.
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See, I think this is where you're losing most of us. You say the IA is signing off your "annual" - i.e. your "annual inspection". And then you say he never inspected it. This doesn't make sense, since an annual inspection is required to be performed by an IA, and then signed off by an IA.

If, instead, you mean that the IA is signing off the annual inspection in your airframe logbook, and the A&P is signing off 100-hr inspections in the engine logbook (and maybe a propeller logbook if you have one), then that's actually quite satisfactory. As others have said above, there is no requirement to even have an engine logbook, let alone have any annual inspections signed off in it. However, since most airplanes do have an engine logbook for ease of recordkeeping and resale, etc., most mechanics will sign something in it at the end of the annual. Some word this as an "annual inspection", which isn't technically correct since there is no separate annual inspection required for the engine. Others will word this as a "100-hour inspection", which isn't technically necessary (but also isn't "wrong"), since for your operation you aren't required to have 100-hour inspections.
 
Domenick said:
Find yourself and A&P-IA so they can sign off their own annual inspections.

If you own a Piper Cherokee (PA-28 or PA-32), having too many 100-hour inspections in your logbook, will make you subject to the VERY onerous AD.2020-26-16 Wing Spar Inspection.
Click to expand...
That's a notable problem in Canada, where many shops ~20 years ago wrote "100 hour" instead of "annual" for private planes, not bothering with the distinction.
 
Gone Flyin said:
Like I said, the AI never inspected my plane. He had the A&P do it all.
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were was the annual done? What type of plane? The inspection does not take that long as long as everything is opened up. The IA may have looked at it and you never knew it.
 
The IA’s job is to make work for other people.
 
Domenick said:
It is NOT 5000 hours "in service". It is 5000 "Factored Service Hours" which are calculated from a formula in the AD. The formula is based on Time in Service and number of 100-hour inspections.

The AD has all the details.
https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_...69cdce7d8625865e005b20fe/$FILE/2020-26-16.pdf
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The AD specifically calls out only the 100 hours inspection as required by 91.409(b) (for hire). So if you did 100 hour inspections for any reason other than 91.409(b) compliance they do not count.

"If the purpose of an inspection was to comply with § 91.409(b), then it must be counted."

"An inspection entered as a “100-hour” inspection but done solely for the purpose of meeting the requirement to complete an annual inspection, or those otherwise not required by § 91.409(b), need not be counted."
 
pfarber said:
..."An inspection entered as a “100-hour” inspection but done solely for the purpose of meeting the requirement to complete an annual inspection, or those otherwise not required by § 91.409(b), need not be counted."
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Very true.
Unfortunately, there is an element of judgment involved. If you are the Nth owner and all you see is a sign-off for a 100-hour inspection a few decades ago, how do you know whether or not it was for 91.409(b) compliance?
 
Maybe the A&P just wants to put the 100 hr in the books so that when you give him your money you won't be wondering "what the hell did this guy do?"
 
Two signatures not the norm. Both 100 and Annual endorsement is not unusual.
 
The rule requires the aircraft to be inspected every 100 hours if used for compensation or hire. An annual with 100 hour sign offs for the engine and propeller would not be considered a 100 hour inspection of the aircraft. It would be an annual inspection of the aircraft.
 
The 100 hour inspection process that your describing is very common and probably desirable.
I’ve been an active A&P since 1987. Never had a desire to get the IA until recently. Countless times over the years I’ve been asked by IAs to sign the 100 hour inspection. The IA will then sign the annual. It’s completely legal. It’s also a way for the IA to ensure that the A&P has some skin in the game. Think in terms of liability. If the A&P (who’s likely doing the work) is willing to sign a 100 hour, the IA can feel pretty sure that it was done right.
I respect that logic. We used the same logic at the airlines where I was employed as an aircraft mechanic and inspector. The A&P would do the work. The Inspector would look it over and sign behind. Both were responsible.
 
Jdm said:
The 100 hour inspection process that your describing is very common and probably desirable.
I’ve been an active A&P since 1987. Never had a desire to get the IA until recently. Countless times over the years I’ve been asked by IAs to sign the 100 hour inspection. The IA will then sign the annual. It’s completely legal. It’s also a way for the IA to ensure that the A&P has some skin in the game. Think in terms of liability. If the A&P (who’s likely doing the work) is willing to sign a 100 hour, the IA can feel pretty sure that it was done right.
I respect that logic. We used the same logic at the airlines where I was employed as an aircraft mechanic and inspector. The A&P would do the work. The Inspector would look it over and sign behind. Both were responsible.
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This may be splitting atoms, but if I read your post correctly, only one inspection is done , the 100 hour, then that one inspection is used by the AI as 'his' inspection also, because he 'trusts' the A&P.

Per the letter of the FAR, how can this be legal?

91.409

No inspection performed under paragraph (b) of this section may be substituted for any inspection required by this paragraph unless it is performed by a person authorized to perform annual inspections and is entered as an “annual” inspection in the required maintenance records.

Also 65.95 states that AI can perform the inspection, not delegate it.

The log book entry may be kosher, but the actual inspection part is wack, yo.
 
pfarber said:
This may be splitting atoms, but if I read your post correctly, only one inspection is done , the 100 hour, then that one inspection is used by the AI as 'his' inspection also, because he 'trusts' the A&P.
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Not exactly. The IA accomplishes an inspection alright, but the A&P does most of the work. The A&P inspects as well and reports to the IA if something is in question. It’s all done at the same location, at the same time usually. How would you suggest the A&P document his work?
It’s not always done this way, but it’s extremely common. Lots of advantages here. Saves you money first of all. You also have two sets of eyes on things. Two licensed professionals taking responsibility for you airplane is not a bad thing.
 
I'm not sure what signing off a 100 Hour means here. The scope of the 100hour inspection is the same as the annual. Nothing is accomplished by having the inspection done twice by two different certification levels. As others point out, the IA can not delegate the inspection.

It doesn't even take an A&P to "prep" the plane. I prepped the plane for my annual: remove the interior and fairings, open the access panels, set up the jacks, etc... The A&P spent a few hours doing his thing.

Back when I was leasing back and needed 100 hours, we had the IA sign off all the 100 hours as annuals anyhow (even if they were due before the year was up).
 
This sounds to me like the A&P is performing a 100hr inspection and the IA signs it as an annual inspection after the A&P is done. As long as the IA does his own inspection, it is perfectly legal. Like I posted earlier, you can perform an annual inspection whenever the owner requests...more than once a year.
 
flyingron said:
It doesn't even take an A&P to "prep" the plane. I prepped the plane for my annual: remove the interior and fairings, open the access panels, set up the jacks, etc... The A&P spent a few hours doing his thing.
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Of course, but not every owner wants to do this. Not every IA wants to sign off a customer’s work. Depending on the customer, it can be more of a hassle than having the mechanic do it himself. I’ve worked with customers who I would need to charge extra if they helped! Most quality shops won’t even consider allowing the customers to do this.
There’s many ways to accomplish the job depending on the situation. More commonly than not I find the 100 used as method of choice.
 
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The engine and prop usually doesn’t get anything other than a 100 hr. It’s the Airframe that gets the annual, and possibly a 100hr depending on the situation.
 
The Owner is authorized to perform any task while under the direct supervision
of an “Agency” that is authorized to perform that task.

I also have them provide Log Entries which I follow with “ Under the supervision of” which I sign.

Useful for 65.77 as well.
 
a 100hr sign off and a annual is common. before my father passed a way i did not hold an IA, my father did. I would do the work prescribed by the 100 inspection sign off a 100hr and he would do the required inspection for the annual. that really is the way it should be done for a multi A&P shop. the words 100hr do not have to be used, but the work performed by the a&p should be signed off by him. cleaning and re-packing wheel bearings, changing oil, replacing worn parts and correcting items found during the inspection are to be signed off by the person performing the work. If the only thing the IA does is the inspection, that is really the only thing that he should be signing off, the inspection. the other work performed should be signed off by the person performing the work.
 
Magman said:
The Owner is authorized to perform any task while under the direct supervision
of an “Agency” that is authorized to perform that task.

I also have them provide Log Entries which I follow with “ Under the supervision of” which I sign.

Useful for 65.77 as well.
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except an inspection item, that the IA cannot delegate.
 
unsafervguy said:
a 100hr sign off and a annual is common. before my father passed a way i did not hold an IA, my father did. I would do the work prescribed by the 100 inspection sign off a 100hr and he would do the required inspection for the annual. that really is the way it should be done for a multi A&P shop. the words 100hr do not have to be used, but the work performed by the a&p should be signed off by him. cleaning and re-packing wheel bearings, changing oil, replacing worn parts and correcting items found during the inspection are to be signed off by the person performing the work. If the only thing the IA does is the inspection, that is really the only thing that he should be signing off, the inspection. the other work performed should be signed off by the person performing the work.
Click to expand...

What you’ve described seems to be the norm. At least it was the norm at the shops I worked.
 
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