McClellan-Palomar Advice

rhvpilot

rhvpilot

Pre-takeoff checklist
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san Jose, CA
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RHV PILOT
Hello Guys,

I am flying kids to Lego land On July 4. plan to fly to Palomar (first time) from SF bayarea.
I have been to Fullerton a few times (Gorman - Elmonte- KFUL)
Will appreciate local pilots' advice on the best way to get there, (navigating Class LAX bravo, land marks to navigate, marine layer, san onofre restricted airspace, and then approaching) parking, FBO, Fuel, etc. we plan to stay 3 nights, will the transient parking work or I must go to an FBO? I could probably use UBER or something.

Thanks in advance
 
I don't fly into Palomar too much, I stay further south at MYF and SEE, but the marine layer this past June has been pretty stubborn unfortunately. I feel bad for the folks at CRQ and MYF when I'm climbing out of SEE and see the fog bank hanging almost right on top of them. Hopefully by July that will be less of a factor, but if you are VFR I'd be ready for an alternate and an Uber ride just in case

Assume you'll be VFR on flight following, LAX has a couple published VFR corridors, if you have Foreflight check them out.. the "coastal route" (in my opinion) has the easiest entry and exit points and is the simplest to follow since you can follow VOR radials, some of the others require more local knowledge with visual landmarks so I tend to avoid those. The last thing I want to be doing in a busy airspace is try and pick something out on the ground in a new area... so the VOR radial is a much easier thing to track to and from in my opinion. ATC clearance is still required on the coastal route, so heads up on that

Haven't parked our bought gas at Palomar, so I'll let someone else chime in with their input

P.S. - have fun at Lego Land! Carlsbad is a great area
 
Thanks for heads up.

Curious if it is possible to get under the layer from east side?

Also qonder how far is glesspie fro there?
 
rhvpilot said:
Thanks for heads up.

Curious if it is possible to get under the layer from east side?

Also qonder how far is glesspie fro there?
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Aren't you instrument rated? Whatcha worried about marine layer for? CRQ has SEVEN approaches, including an ILS. Get a pop up if you need it, or just fly the whole thing IFR.

All four LAX B transition routes are related to VOR radials, GPS visual "VP" points, or both. Make sure you brief the transition before you get there. The only visual landmarks are the LAX runways, which are incredibly easy to spot. I don't suggest trying to avoid the B, as it seems to confuse the controllers.

I don't like to land VFR under a marine layer, as it can get uncomfortably low, and complicates go-arounds. It can easily be lower on the ocean side of a coastal airport.
 
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MAKG1 said:
All four LAX B transition routes are related to VOR radials, GPS visual "VP" points, or both.
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Right. For some reason the GPS visual VP points I don't care for as much. I find it easier to just dial a frequency into NAV2, set the radial, and follow that, it takes all of a few seconds to accomplish. If you're VFR and have no autopilot that's easier for me than programming up the GPS with the visual points, etc. Should have clarified that!
 
rhvpilot said:
Also qonder how far is glesspie fro there?
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Depending on traffic about an hour. But like MAKG said, if you are instrument that would be the preferred option..
 
It's been a few years, but IIRC CRQ has landing fees but Oceanside does not. Not far apart.

As for arriving from the EAST to stay under marine layer? Probably no. The terrain works against you on that.
 
Ravioli said:
As for arriving from the EAST to stay under marine layer? Probably no. The terrain works against you on that.
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Sometimes Fallbrook and Ramona, further inland, are clear when Palomar is socked in. Not today, though ... just looked at the satellite picture, and the crud is shoved all the way up against the mountains.
 
I'm in Texas.... I have trouble getting to 4000' elevation without a fuel stop! I think going East from Palomar is "rapidly rising terrain" ;)
 
VFR? Route from the north should be the same as IFR TEC. They land 24 99% of the time - so coming north here you go:

Gorman-Darts-PDZ-Tannr - use FF and you;ll start getting vectors as you close in on CRQ for sequence. use 7500 once clear of GMN.

There is transient parking right under the tower $5 a night - pay attention to the air carrier ramp markings and don't stray.

I often fly down to CRQ for breakfast and use it to get an IFR approach to stay current.

The clouds often end right at the end of the airport - I very often get vectored to an approach and can see the airport from 15 miles away slant range under the clouds. This can be VERY useful for either Special VFR or asking for a contact approach.

Once I was being vectored for what as to be a very long sequence and clearly saw the runway slant under the clouds - I asked ATC for a contact approach - they paused for a moment and then vectored me right to final - that started a trend. I've often heard ATC asking pilots getting long vectors and holds if they 'had contact' with the runway environment. Sometimes the light goes on - sometimes not. Somebody always gets it which starts a flood of requests. . . .

So keep the contact and Special VFR in your toolbox. It's very helpful here.
 
As far as VFR route...my preferred rout through SoCal from the Bay Area is the LAX Coastal Route then just offshore of the Camp Pendleton R airspace. Easy Peasy.
 
Shawn said:
As far as VFR route...my preferred rout through SoCal from the Bay Area is the LAX Coastal Route then just offshore of the Camp Pendleton R airspace. Easy Peasy.
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I prefer not to be changing altitudes and giving myself excuses to screw up airspace - If you look at the distance involved it really is a deminimus difference even in a slow airplane - extend you perhaps 3-4 min and going around to the east lets you stay at a constant altitude and keeps everyone in the airplane comfy . . .
 
comanchepilot said:
I prefer not to be changing altitudes and giving myself excuses to screw up airspace - If you look at the distance involved it really is a deminimus difference even in a slow airplane - extend you perhaps 3-4 min and going around to the east lets you stay at a constant altitude and keeps everyone in the airplane comfy . . .
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Yup...that is a viable route that you pointed out as well. I usually drop to 5500 and just stay there heading South, but I am also usually coming from SBA. My experience also has been that the Coastal Route is a much more relaxing flight. Ducking east of LAX on FF tends to be a much higher work load with a higher rate of handoffs and traffic advisories. I joke that the Coastal Route inside the LAX Bravo is the most relaxing flight in the So Cal basin! (short of just not talking to anyone!)
 
R2503 B & C are usually hot. A & D usually not. Doing the Coloseum or Hollywood Park route and flying pretty much over KSNA instead of offshore has it's advantages. They like to vector you around departures if you're flying along or off the beach a ways and further off shore is what they choose often. Be mindful of your gliding distance to shore if you care about things like that.
 
Yes I admit,:) I am IFR. just wanted to cheat and not go IFR if I don't have to. But you know what it is probably the right thing to do. Will plan for IFR flight all the way.
Curious do I still need Bravo clearance when on IFR?

I have flown coastal route 2-3 time (thanks to shawn's advice). I usually cross Gorman at 9500, will have to drop down to get to holly wood route.


Is it easy to get UBER?, best fuel stop? Landing fees, preferred FBO?

Thanks for the valuable info.
 
rhvpilot said:
...........Curious do I still need Bravo clearance when on IFR?

I have flown coastal route 2-3 time (thanks to shawn's advice). I usually cross Gorman at 9500, will have to drop down to get to holly wood route
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Yes. When you get your IFR clearance, you have it. Yeah, I know, splitting hairs. No you don't have to hear the magic "B" word.

Hollywood Park Route is at 9500. I'd recommend the Coloseum Route. It's 9500 also
 
No need to worry about Bravo and Restricted airspace when IFR. Your IFR clearance IS your Bravo clearance should your route take you through Bravo and ATC will route you around any active R airspace.

When I fly to SoCal...I only file if needed. Tend to like to go VFR. You can always get a pop up if your destination is IFR or you have IMC ahead.
 
Call Lego in advance - they pick people up @ the CRQ main terminal - and if you park at GA transient under the terminal - then you've got a 4 min walk to the terminal front door - they'l prob come get you.

Any of the FBO's will drive you over there - its worth calling a couple and asking about fees - might not be much more than transient parking -and you get the ride.
 
Shawn said:
No need to worry about Bravo and Restricted airspace when IFR. Your IFR clearance IS your Bravo clearance should your route take you through Bravo and ATC will route you around any active R airspace.

When I fly to SoCal...I only file if needed. Tend to like to go VFR. You can always get a pop up if your destination is IFR or you have IMC ahead.
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If you're going to MYF or SAN then coming along the coast [which is where they want you VFR] you can simply get the Bravo clearnace because they hand them out like candy in San Diego - often you'll get a stepped descent to 2500 which takes you under the Bravo and then all of a sudden you get handed off to KSAN without one - and you have to ask. Can do the same thing to CRQ only you will not need a Class B clearnance.

Coming from NorCal with kids - you'll prob get down here after 11a - so it'll all be cleared off -

If it was me and I was expecting VFR late am - I'd come down PXN AVE GMN DARTS PRADO JOGIT DANAH then along the coast - you miss all the airspace except for little slice of the Bravo and an altitude change there solves your problem.
 
comanchepilot said:
VFR? Route from the north should be the same as IFR TEC. They land 24 99% of the time - so coming north here you go:

Gorman-Darts-PDZ-Tannr - use FF and you;ll start getting vectors as you close in on CRQ for sequence. use 7500 once clear of GMN.

There is transient parking right under the tower $5 a night - pay attention to the air carrier ramp markings and don't stray.

I often fly down to CRQ for breakfast and use it to get an IFR approach to stay current.

The clouds often end right at the end of the airport - I very often get vectored to an approach and can see the airport from 15 miles away slant range under the clouds. This can be VERY useful for either Special VFR or asking for a contact approach.

Once I was being vectored for what as to be a very long sequence and clearly saw the runway slant under the clouds - I asked ATC for a contact approach - they paused for a moment and then vectored me right to final - that started a trend. I've often heard ATC asking pilots getting long vectors and holds if they 'had contact' with the runway environment. Sometimes the light goes on - sometimes not. Somebody always gets it which starts a flood of requests. . . .

So keep the contact and Special VFR in your toolbox. It's very helpful here.
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Thanks for the tips Luvflyin.

I did some skyvector playing, this is how it looks like?

KRHV -LHS V459- DARTS V186- PDZ V186- TANNR V186 - ROBNN- ESCON - KCRQ
 
I was just there last week for a wedding! I used Magellan FBO, they pulled the rental car up to the plane when I arrived and let me drive to the plane when I left, $10 a night, first night waived with gas. I thought it was reasonable.
I heard there is a Legoland shuttle there, know nothing about it.
I was in hard IMC both in and out so I have no suggestions for routing. Other than had it been VFR I would have gone 10500 one way and 11500 the other and probably wouldn't have talked to anybody but towers and gone direct with the exception of the restricted airspace.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
I was just there last week for a wedding! I used Magellan FBO, they pulled the rental car up to the plane when I arrived and let me drive to the plane when I left, $10 a night, first night waived with gas. I thought it was reasonable.
I heard there is a Legoland shuttle there, know nothing about it.
I was in hard IMC both in and out so I have no suggestions for routing. Other than had it been VFR I would have gone 10500 one way and 11500 the other and probably wouldn't have talked to anybody but towers and gone direct with the exception of the restricted airspace.
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Is ut correct Ave gas @Meglellan is 6$ ?
Any cheaper at transient.
Do they have any ramp fee etc? Surprise fees ?
 
rhvpilot said:
Is ut correct Ave gas @Meglellan is 6$ ?
Any cheaper at transient.
Do they have any ramp fee etc? Surprise fees ?
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I have to look at the bill. When I went down there Magellan was the cheapest on the field. They waived the $10 night fee for the first night and charged me $10 a night for each after. NO OTHER FEES! I asked if they could put the minimum amount of fuel in each day to waive all the fees and they said no. (Yes I have had FBOs say yes to that request before!)

I wanted to rental car at the plane when I got there and wanted to drive to the plane on the way out (lots of stuff) so I didn't even consider the transient ramp
 
comanchepilot said:
That's what you'll get IFR. . .
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I thought if I go to Escon it will be easy intercepting localizer since they use 24 anyway. And if coast is under marine layer no point going there. Also I wouldn't have to juggle thru Lax B if I get ifr clearance just follow the route. For ILS 24 looks like I will need to maintain 3500 till intercept and then follow glide slope?
 
luvflyin said:
Yes. When you get your IFR clearance, you have it. Yeah, I know, splitting hairs. No you don't have to hear the magic "B" word.

Hollywood Park Route is at 9500. I'd recommend the Coloseum Route. It's 9500 also
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Will there be enough time to descend from 9500 comfortably?
 
rhvpilot said:
Will there be enough time to descend from 9500 comfortably?
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if you want an IFR approach you'll be going the 'back way' = which means PDZ TANNR vectors. You usually get a heading of 150 after TANNR. you'll be at 7000 or more likely 9000 and will get a descent to 5000 - then to 3500 to intercept about 3 miles outside Escon.

If the field is IFR please don't come down the coast VFR and then go over the airport to get vectored to the ILS = it screws up the traffic flow coming out of the airport.
 
comanchepilot said:
if you want an IFR approach you'll be going the 'back way' = which means PDZ TANNR vectors. You usually get a heading of 150 after TANNR. you'll be at 7000 or more likely 9000 and will get a descent to 5000 - then to 3500 to intercept about 3 miles outside Escon.

If the field is IFR please don't come down the coast VFR and then go over the airport to get vectored to the ILS = it screws up the traffic flow coming out of the airport.
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lol I had filed to end up at taner and they ended up detouring me down the coast and eventually vectoring me way way out over the ocean then all the way across to the ILS.
 
comanchepilot said:
if you want an IFR approach you'll be going the 'back way' = which means PDZ TANNR vectors. You usually get a heading of 150 after TANNR. you'll be at 7000 or more likely 9000 and will get a descent to 5000 - then to 3500 to intercept about 3 miles outside Escon.

If the field is IFR please don't come down the coast VFR and then go over the airport to get vectored to the ILS = it screws up the traffic flow coming out of the airport.
Click to expand...
TheGolfPilot said:
lol I had filed to end up at taner and they ended up detouring me down the coast and eventually vectoring me way way out over the ocean then all the way across to the ILS.
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It sounds just waste of time and fuel. Would it help I file for ESCON and then vectors for ILS?
 
TheGolfPilot said:
Other than had it been VFR I would have gone 10500 one way and 11500 the other and probably wouldn't have talked to anybody but towers and gone direct with the exception of the restricted airspace.
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SoCal hates it when you do that. They want to be talking to you even if you're not going through B or C.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
lol I had filed to end up at taner and they ended up detouring me down the coast and eventually vectoring me way way out over the ocean then all the way across to the ILS.
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NEVER had that happen landing at CRQ before - was it VFR at the field? The TEC route is going in via the back door - which is TANNR.

I can see the controllers vectoring you over the field to the ILS if the field is VFR - as a means of showing you - hey, the field is VFR - land now = some controllers can be pretty passive aggressive that way - maybe I grew up in NYC and just got used to it!

Seriously, in 7 years of flying to CRQ IFR I"ve NEVER gotten a vector from the west -
 
comanchepilot said:
NEVER had that happen landing at CRQ before - was it VFR at the field? The TEC route is going in via the back door - which is TANNR.

I can see the controllers vectoring you over the field to the ILS if the field is VFR - as a means of showing you - hey, the field is VFR - land now = some controllers can be pretty passive aggressive that way - maybe I grew up in NYC and just got used to it!

Seriously, in 7 years of flying to CRQ IFR I"ve NEVER gotten a vector from the west -
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Interesting. That might have been what they were telling me but I was in scattered clouds until close the the FAF.
 
comanchepilot said:
I can see the controllers vectoring you over the field to the ILS if the field is VFR - as a means of showing you - hey, the field is VFR - land now = some controllers can be pretty passive aggressive that way - maybe I grew up in NYC and just got used to it!
Click to expand...

That is why if it is VMC I have learned to just request a Visual Approach especially in SoCal. I will take just point me at the field and join the pattern to get me on the ground over a crap ton of vectors and sequencing any day!
 
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rhvpilot said:
It sounds just waste of time and fuel. Would it help I file for ESCON and then vectors for ILS?
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No. Look at the Tower Enroute Control routes starting on page 477 of the Southwest Chart Supplement. Even if you don't depart one of those airports you are going to get put on those routes when you get closer to Socal. Coming from the Northwest you are going to end up on V186 ROBNN if your flying a less than 190 knot airplane. Checkout the BURN26. You can come in over LHS, GMN, FIM or RZS, their going to get you on V186 by the time your in the neighborhood of KBUR. Only way to beat that is stay VFR and then "popup" south of LAX.
 
luvflyin said:
Coming from the Northwest you are going to end up on V186 ROBNN if your flying a less than 190 knot airplane.
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Yup...From Nor Cal to anywhere south of LAX southbound I have yet to ever get anything other than a gateway crossing through DARTS at 9000' then via 186 or 597.
 
Shawn said:
Yup...From Nor Cal to anywhere south of LAX southbound I have yet to ever get anything other than a gateway crossing through DARTS at 9000' then via 186 or 597.
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File anything you want - but you're going over DARTS V186 PDZ no matter where you're going - the LOC to KSAN goes there, ILS CRQ, ILS MYF, GPS OCN, doesn't matter - DARTS V186 Paradise . . . at least you can tell everyone you have been to Paradise. . .
 
comanchepilot said:
File anything you want - but you're going over DARTS V186 PDZ no matter where you're going - the LOC to KSAN goes there, ILS CRQ, ILS MYF, GPS OCN, doesn't matter - DARTS V186 Paradise . . . at least you can tell everyone you have been to Paradise. . .
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Very helpful tips and info.
Curious, if did pop up ifr north of LA bravo, could the possibly give me straighter transition thru bravo?

As always, extremely helpful, great people on POA. Thanks
 
Just realized, after Tanner , if I just stay on V186, it automatically intercepts localizer. should I descend to 3500 after tanner or stay higher. Approach plate show 3300 before Escon.
 
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