Mass Termination of DPEs - Portland, ME FSDO

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ivegotmoxie

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ivegotmoxie
This was a couple weeks ago, but two highly respected DPEs and a third I'm not personally familiar with were removed from DPE status according to the rumor mill. Please see the reddit post linked below for full discussion.

I'm sure the FAA had good reasons for their decisions, but this is really putting students in the area in a bind as they try to schedule checkrides.

If anyone has any other info about this please share.

https://www.reddit.com/r/flying/comments/tb6wp3/portland_me_fsdo_terminates_3_dpes_in_one_day/
 
It's on Reddit so it has to be true!
 
I’m not defending the DPEs or the FSDO but there’s most certainly a lot more to this story that we don’t know about and likely won’t hear about. I will say that FSDOs have plenty of work on their plate so sacking DPEs isn’t something they do for fun, nor is it something that is done under the whim of one rogue inspector.
 
Brad Z said:
I’m not defending the DPEs or the FSDO but there’s most certainly a lot more to this story that we don’t know about and likely won’t hear about. I will say that FSDOs have plenty of work on their plate so sacking DPEs isn’t something they do for fun, nor is it something that is done under the whim of one rogue inspector.
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I was reading some of the Reddit strings about this a few days ago and they would have you believe it was a rogue new inspector. With no knowledge of it- I would still have my doubts. I think the DPE would have to be pretty egregious in their conduct to get canned don’t you think.
 
benyflyguy said:
I was reading some of the Reddit strings about this a few days ago and they would have you believe it was a rogue new inspector. With no knowledge of it- I would still have my doubts. I think the DPE would have to be pretty egregious in their conduct to get canned don’t you think.
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I would think something like this would have been run up the flag pole by the letter organizations.

Does Gryder have a video on it? If not ...it didn't happen. If he does it happened in some bizarre, from another planet, dark world scheme sort of way, that no one else could have figured out but him (reference his latest tripe on the Trevor Jacobs crash).
 
I started the reddit post and am working on collecting facts since rumors are running rampant (as expected).

I can confirm directly from a firsthand source that at least one termination did indeed happen as rumored and it was highly irregular and on the spot during a checkride with the examinee being forced to redo their entire checkride. I can't say any more but I am in discussion with firsthand parties, along with AOPA, the Portland FSDO, and various other parties. Something very irregular definitely occurred; this was not a normal termination.
 
ivegotmoxie said:
I'm sure the FAA had good reasons for their decisions, but this is really putting students in the area in a bind as they try to schedule checkrides.
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Chortle. The DPE designations are issued by a arbitrary and often corrupt and capricious whim of local FSDO officers.
 
Someone posted the FAA doc for termination of DPEs. This is the general catch all:

2) Any actions by the designee that may reflect poorly on the FAA, such as misuse of the designation or failure to maintain a reputation for integrity and dependability in the industry and the community;

So for the guy in TX that was drinking alcohol and not pointing out the unsafe practices of the flight is clearly in violation.

Anyone that's ever been in a position above 'replaceable cog' understands this.

None of 'us' have any real insight other than one side of the story. But from the above there is a legitimate claim against the guy drinking and not calling out the unsafe act.
 
pfarber said:
Someone posted the FAA doc for termination of DPEs. This is the general catch all:

2) Any actions by the designee that may reflect poorly on the FAA, such as misuse of the designation or failure to maintain a reputation for integrity and dependability in the industry and the community;

So for the guy in TX that was drinking alcohol and not pointing out the unsafe practices of the flight is clearly in violation.

Anyone that's ever been in a position above 'replaceable cog' understands this.

None of 'us' have any real insight other than one side of the story. But from the above there is a legitimate claim against the guy drinking and not calling out the unsafe act.
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You've got to be kidding us. Do you work for the SAT FSDO??? 'cause you'd fit right in... ANYONE who knew Ken would know that is ridiculous. Besides, patience is also a virtue. Maybe interrupting a zoom meeting that you weren't leading would also be unprofessional...
 
Flash backs to different locations, new characters appearing - all with no context.

I'm waiting for a polar bear, a secret hatch, and time travel to be mentioned.
 
tehmightypirate said:
I started the reddit post and am working on collecting facts since rumors are running rampant (as expected).

I can confirm directly from a firsthand source that at least one termination did indeed happen as rumored and it was highly irregular and on the spot during a checkride with the examinee being forced to redo their entire checkride. I can't say any more but I am in discussion with firsthand parties, along with AOPA, the Portland FSDO, and various other parties. Something very irregular definitely occurred; this was not a normal termination.
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And why is any of this your business? I get this will cause some temporary pain in the training world, but just because an FAA action is irregular doesn’t mean it it unwarranted.

The FSDO will replace these DPEs as quickly as possible and the things will get back to normal. What ever it is you are trying to accomplish is a fool’s errand.
 
I am friends with a DPE that the FAA terminated about a year ago by the PWM FSDO. It was a witch hunt to say the least. There has been a shortage of DPE's in this area, and now it is even worse. I don't know what is going on up there but something needs to be done.
 
Groundpounder said:
I am friends with a DPE that the FAA terminated about a year ago by the PWM FSDO. It was a witch hunt to say the least. There has been a shortage of DPE's in this area, and now it is even worse. I don't know what is going on up there but something needs to be done.
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Government without oversight
 
Groundpounder said:
I am friends with a DPE that the FAA terminated about a year ago by the PWM FSDO. It was a witch hunt to say the least. There has been a shortage of DPE's in this area, and now it is even worse. I don't know what is going on up there but something needs to be done.
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I started my PPL checkride with him last year did the oral portion no problems couldn't fly due to an airplane issue. Scheduled to finish the following saturday he got screwed on wednesday and from the way it was described to me it was an absolute screwing. I know several people that used one of the DPE's that where just suspended and it sounded like he was strict but fair, and they didn't sound like gimme rides and I know for a fact at least one of them failed.

But show me government agency that isn't generally a bunch of power hungry leaches ands I'll eat my shirt.
 
So, did they pass somebody they should not have passed or did they not pass somebody who whined and complained and said they had their feelings hurt because they didn’t get passed?

This is gonna be a problem recruiting new DPE’s if the termination was not legitimate.
 
Palmpilot said:
Why on Earth would the functioning of our government not be the business of EVERY citizen?
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So if the IRS audits you everyone should get involved? Not hardly.

In the last 4 years, 2 DPEs in my area were revoked. I knew both of them personally. Both claimed it was unwarranted. The facts were both should have been revoked and one should have been referred for criminal prosecution.
 
Morgan3820 said:
So, did they pass somebody they should not have passed or did they not pass somebody who whined and complained and said they had their feelings hurt because they didn’t get passed?

This is gonna be a problem recruiting new DPE’s if the termination was not legitimate.
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If those are the only choices I’m going with a good bust on a safe place idiot that can’t handle failure.
 
It is slightly amusing that we have had a few folks come on here and complain about their DPE and they garnered a bit of sympathy with some folks even calling out the FAA for tolerating such DPEs. Yet when a DPE is canned, the DPE gets the sympathy and it is all "how dare the FAA do that". Just an observation based on my recollection of previous threads.

Personally, I know nothing of the DPEs that were fired but after the issue in SAT blew up all over the place, I would think that any FSDO would be checking all the right due diligence boxes before firing a DPE these days.
 
The DPE who signed my private certificate is no longer a DPE. I haven't found any information, but was told he got busted for "selling" passes.

According to Reddit, one of the DPEs was suspended during an observed checkride that the FSDO observer apparently did not think should proceed past the oral and there was some kerfuffle.

I think most DPEs understand it can be yanked and that they're representatives of and serve at the pleasure of their local FSDO. One said to me, "You don't want to take a checkride with an FAA observer along because if one of us is going to fail, it's not going to be me."

My understanding is the observer can't fail the applicant himself, so if he pulls the DPE aside and says, this is not right, and the DPE says, I'm going to do what I'm going to do, what choices does he have?
 
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Clip4 said:
So if the IRS audits you everyone should get involved? Not hardly.
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The Maine situation is more akin to an auditor getting fired in the middle of an audit, the taxpayer being forced to start over again with another auditor, and the taxpayer being upset about it. Also in the scenario, taxpayers are having trouble completing the audit process because the IRS fired over half the auditors in the state.

I'm not saying that the identity of the person taking the checkride should be revealed without their consent, but my understanding is that there are ways of investigating the appropriateness of government actions without making public the identities of persons who were allegedly wronged.

I'm also not sure that people who take checkrides have the same privacy protections as taxpayers. Isn't there a recent change, for example, that requires air carriers to share information about checkride failures for example, or is that just a proposal?

In the last 4 years, 2 DPEs in my area were revoked. I knew both of them personally. Both claimed it was unwarranted. The facts were both should have been revoked and one should have been referred for criminal prosecution.
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"And why is any of this your business?"

Sorry, couldn't resist. Anyway, I have no basis to dispute your account of the cases in your area, but that tells us nothing about whether the actions of a different FSDO are appropriate. I have no way of knowing whether the situation in Maine is being handled correctly or not. For one thing, as has been mentioned previously, we may not have both sides of the story, but it sounded like you were suggesting that it's not even a valid subject of public inquiry.
 
Lindberg said:
...I think most DPEs understand it can be yanked and that they're representatives of and serve at the pleasure of their local FSDO. One said to me, "You don't want to take a checkride with an FAA observer along because if one of us is going to fail, it's not going to be me."

My understanding is the observer can't fail the applicant himself, so if he pulls the DPE aside and says, this is not right, and the DPE says, I'm going to do what I'm going to do, what choices does he have?
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Sounds like a good argument for only taking checkrides in two-seat aircraft! ;)
 
The irony in Ken’s case is that from personal experience he was favored by the FSDO and one of the favored guys until he wasn’t, and I never heard anything ever negative from the community except that he wasn’t a Santa DPE like some others were regarded.
 
Palmpilot said:
The Maine situation is more akin to an auditor getting fired in the middle of an audit, the taxpayer being forced to start over again with another auditor, and the taxpayer being upset about it. Also in the scenario, taxpayers are having trouble completing the audit process because the IRS fired over half the auditors in the state.

I'm not saying that the identity of the person taking the checkride should be revealed without their consent, but my understanding is that there are ways of investigating the appropriateness of government actions without making public the identities of persons who were allegedly wronged.

I'm also not sure that people who take checkrides have the same privacy protections as taxpayers. Isn't there a recent change, for example, that requires air carriers to share information about checkride failures for example, or is that just a proposal?



"And why is any of this your business?"

Sorry, couldn't resist. Anyway, I have no basis to dispute your account of the cases in your area, but that tells us nothing about whether the actions of a different FSDO are appropriate. I have no way of knowing whether the situation in Maine is being handled correctly or not. For one thing, as has been mentioned previously, we may not have both sides of the story, but it sounded like you were suggesting that it's not even a valid subject of public inquiry.
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It wasn’t and I didn’t pursue and information about their situation. But with most things local aviation the causation becomes know within the instructor community with passing time.
 
Curious and can't recall...can a student/pilot refuse having an FAA observer on board for a check ride?
 
RyanShort1 said:
You've got to be kidding us. Do you work for the SAT FSDO??? 'cause you'd fit right in... ANYONE who knew Ken would know that is ridiculous. Besides, patience is also a virtue. Maybe interrupting a zoom meeting that you weren't leading would also be unprofessional...
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Your internet rage is not required.

Almost every management and professional position will have an ethics clause. Not so much if your are an hourly worker bee.

So did the former DPE in question fail to uphold the FAAs WRITTEN standard of professional ethics? Well, in a public setting, as a DPE, he was drinking alcohol and 2. did not call out an unsafe act. If he was on stage at a presentation you would not even think twice. A zoom meeting does magically make you immune from ethics rules.

You make think otherwise, but respectfully your opinion in this matter does not matter.
 
Shawn said:
Curious and can't recall...can a student/pilot refuse having an FAA observer on board for a check ride?
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I did. For my ifr. It annoyed everyone. But it was my money, my plane, my time, my gas, my rules. They pushed it a little but I pointed out that as PIC I’m in charge of the flight and who goes on the plane is my call and nobody else’s. it might not of hurt but I saw no benefit to me having the FAA guy along.
 
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pfarber said:
Your internet rage is not required.

Almost every management and professional position will have an ethics clause. Not so much if your are an hourly worker bee.

So did the former DPE in question fail to uphold the FAAs WRITTEN standard of professional ethics? Well, in a public setting, as a DPE, he was drinking alcohol and 2. did not call out an unsafe act. If he was on stage at a presentation you would not even think twice. A zoom meeting does magically make you immune from ethics rules.

You make think otherwise, but respectfully your opinion in this matter does not matter.
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You “rage” comment vs this just being a discussion is amusing.

1. What happened to simply being allowed to have a discussion? Also, in the past, I thought that witnesses who know an individual and their character should have more weight than those who don’t. For a while I was teaching at the same airport in Burnet, Texas, which is why I personally feel like defending Ken is a responsibility. He did several things to help me out, and had a good demeanor as a DPE to give CFIs effective feedback.

2. As much as it may *look* like he was drinking “alcohol” - a) That’s not illegal, nor did he appear drunk. b) It could be grape juice, for all you know. c) I can see a person being drunk being consideration for termination, but that doesn’t seem to be the allegation. Imagine being fired for eating a donut… or a cultural food. Also, I’m not of the opinion he was “on stage” as you strangely allege. More like he was at a table in the audience.

3. Unsafe acts are absolutely problematic, but I personally wouldn’t consider interrupting a Zoom meeting professional, either, and the testimony of those involved was that a discussion about safety did take place. The safety issue has been discussed in another thread as well. One man’s “unsafe” may still not be “illegal” and for those who cherish liberty, that’s definitely a cultural dilemma.

There have been some seriously weird expectations in that FSDO including a conversation where a representative actually told me he thought I needed to know what a student had had for breakfast, how much sleep he had gotten, etc. - stuff that many individuals might not willingly share, and which I would not know if the student was even telling the truth.
 
Shawn said:
Curious and can't recall...can a student/pilot refuse having an FAA observer on board for a check ride?
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I did, for my Commercial checkride. He made it clear that I could refuse the ride-along. This was the same DPE I previously had for my instrument checkride, who had failed me on the first ride, most deservedly so (I drove through a step down altitude, due to being extremely rushed in busy airspace).
 
Shawn said:
Curious and can't recall...can a student/pilot refuse having an FAA observer on board for a check ride?
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We always got a courtesy "hey do you mind..." from either the DPE or the Fed, and we could pass the question onto the student.

Actually didn't have a problem with either the "sure whatever" or "no freakin way" students -- they were very good at self-selecting :D
 
When I did my instrument ride in November (NYS), after we finished the DPE explained to me that there had been more than one example recently of DPEs selling tickets or otherwise not performing their duties adequately. He told that I might be contacted by the FAA about my checkride and be asked to give my opinion on the examiner. It never came to that although I wished it had. The examiner was superb and I would have gladly told the FAA exactly that. It was a completely thorough and thoroughly fair checkride.

In any event, it seems like DPEs across the country are under the scope. And there are always two sides to a story.
 
mryan75 said:
When I did my instrument ride in November (NYS), after we finished the DPE explained to me that there had been more than one example recently of DPEs selling tickets or otherwise not performing their duties adequately. He told that I might be contacted by the FAA about my checkride and be asked to give my opinion on the examiner. It never came to that although I wished it had. The examiner was superb and I would have gladly told the FAA exactly that. It was a completely thorough and thoroughly fair checkride.

In any event, it seems like DPEs across the country are under the scope. And there are always two sides to a story.
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My DPE said the same thing in June 2019. The FAA never contacted me, but I thought he did a good job and would have told them so. The oral was quite long because we were waiting in hopes that the winds would subside a bit. They didn't, and we had to postpone the flight portion. My only complaint was that he was overbooked and I had a substantial delay getting on his calendar. No problems with the exam, however.
 
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