Maneuvers with passengers in the back seat?

Why do you want to demonstrate maneuvers? are you showing off?
Do not surprise your passengers.
Ask them first, explain what you plan to do, and what they will experience.
If they have never been in small airplane before, do not do maneuvers.
Do not scare your passengers.
Have you done maneuvers with a fully loaded airplane? You will be very surprised how the aicraft handles.
Rethink your plan to do maneuvers.
 
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As long as everyone is game and you're within CG and the POH approves it, you should be fine. I wouldn't recommend stalls if you're aft of CG ( I wouldn't recommend flying either, but doubly so for stalls ). I'm just paranoid and don't do stalls with folks in the back seat. I fly a Bonanza.... sick sacks I would recommend. Make sure everyone is game for it.
 
Take it easy on pax. Back seat is unforgiving of sloppy rudder technique and you'll make them hurl.

That said, to answer the question ... With more weight on board you'll need more power. Watch out for getting slow in the steep turns. Good way to accidentally find out about spins if you're not on your game and sloppy with the rudder.

Most folks prefer the same kind of ride they get in an airliner and maneuvers are typically far less comfortable for people who aren't used to them or aren't on the controls.
 
My advice is don't do this. Fun for you, but no fun for your passengers.
 
First, if you have to ask the question, then you lack the experience and knowledge to perform such maneuvers safely.

smltk1 said:
Everyone on board has flown in small planes with me before so they're not entirely new to the experience. Of course I was going to let then known beforehand before I did anything.

The idea from this stemmed from me seeing a video of a bunch of guys in a 172 en route to Vegas doing a bunch of maneuvers like steep turns over the desert and having a grand old time. When I first saw it I questioned how wise it was to be doing that but all the commenters regarding the video (on another aviation forum) were saying positive things like "this is what GA is all about" and whatnot so I figured it was OK.

But regardless, I'm glad I asked for second opinions before attempting this and judging from the responses, I'll reconsider.
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I question your judgement of doing maneuvers based on what you saw in the comments of a YouTube video. Seriously, are you 17 years old? You may not see it, but most of the folks here see the possibility of something baaad happening.

Please do reconsider.
 
Dumb idea, don't do it.
 
Yes we do practice the steep turns and other stuff but having an extra 200 lbs in the back changes things. I found it quite surprising on takeoff having one 200lb person in the backseat. If I wasn't a pilot and someone showed me steeped turns I'd think "Wow we went around in a circle wonder what the point of that was" and if they did a power off stall I'd freak out when the stall horn blared - what happens if you don't recover fast enough. Don't let us read about you in the paper. Don't show off either.
 
Re: YouTube video... Were they all young and stupid? Is that what made it look cool? ;)

I have a handful of AVIATION friends, e.g. PILOTS, who wouldn't mind doing maneuvers and what-not enroute somewhere. They'd give me absolute hell if they were done sloppy or less than perfect. There's also one adventurous family member who'd do it.

But most folks aren't prepared for it. You can easily make the airplane their personal roller coaster and torture chamber.

Here's another tip. Don't feed them frozen pizza before a flight on a bumpy day, and don't forget to ask if they get carsick because they will NOT think to mention it. Don't ask how I know both of those. But I found out quick. Look up the flight time between KEIK and KBJC at about 100 knots.
 
Depends on the back seat passengers. Some will love it, some will hate it.

My nephew has a picture of him and a buddy standing next to the old man's Pitts after a flight - the buddy is grinning ear to ear while holding a very full sick sack... :dunno:
 
Nope. Although if I need to do an occasional steep turn (i.e. 180 maneuver to join a pattern where space is constricted by terrain) I'll advise my passengers beforehand.
 
Recently, I wanted to descend for some flightseeing... I did a 30 degree bank 360 turn, pulled the power, and dropped a few thousand feet. Rolled out on the original heading at the altitude I wanted. For me and my training... it was benign and boring. For my wife, her eyes got all big and she thought it was the coolest thing ever and was taking pictures of the instrument panel, out the windows. It doesn't take much to impress passengers that are used to normal flying.
 
smltk1 said:
First of all, they were comments from users on another general aviation forum, not random YouTube comments. Not that it matters much but I'm just pointing out how that there's a little bit of credibility behind them, just like the comments in here

Second of all, I'm not sure why you're criticizing me so much. I'm not trying to do a split s or Pugachev's Cobra or something insane, I'm talking private pilot maneuvers. steep turns and stalls are something that every private pilot perfects during training and demonstrate in the check ride.

Since there isn't anything explicitly prohibiting me from doing these maneuvers(or no one has pointed out a regulation) , I considered doing them but still wanted to get a second opinion just in case. Judging from the responses in this topic, I'm glad I asked around and won't be doing anything besides fly like an airline pilot.
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Oh, comments on a general aviation forum. Does it really matter?

If you're so sure it's a good idea, then why are you asking? The concensus of the board has spoken and said it's a bad idea. I'm sure you'll do it anyway so at a minimum please don't kill anyone.

But hey, I'm just SGOTI so don't bother listening to me.
 
I think most people have more of an issue in a small aircraft in the back seat. People are more sensitive to air sickness in the back of the aircraft, because of the type of motion and the lack of control.

My advice is to avoid maneuvers with pax in the plane - front or back. Doing those things in that aircraft is for training, or instruction flights.

Use that aircraft for transportation to something fun and exciting, not as it. They make planes for that, and they usually only have one seat. :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Throw in a low buzz pass on the neighbors house and most of us could fill out the NTSB report for you in advance. Stay away from any group applauding a bunch of friends doing wild maneuvers on the way to Vegas. At the very least you will probably turn your pals into non-pilots, even if they pretend to like it. You presumably worked hard to get that ticket like we all did.........hang on to it for a long time and dump these ideas overboard.
 
It really depends on the passengers, some will love it, others will hate it.

I wouldn't hesitate to do it with the right folks
 
Skylane81E said:
It really depends on the passengers, some will love it, others will hate it.

I wouldn't hesitate to do it with the right folks
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Yup. Just gotta know your friends. I took up a group of buds a few weeks before I sold my 172 and we had a great time. Steep turns, 0g, turns around a point.

If you keep the airplane within the envelope and your friends don't mind the "mild" aerobatics like steep turns and stalls, more power to you. Have fun, be safe.
 
Skylane81E said:
It really depends on the passengers, some will love it, others will hate it.

I wouldn't hesitate to do it with the right folks
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After 17 years out of flying my wife gave me a gift certificate to cover the training to get a current BFR. She asked if she could tag along for the oral and the flying. I let her know that there may be maneuvers that would make her uncomfortable but that if she really wanted to go I would ask the instructor.

The instructor was ok with it but also cautioned her that it could be a bit uncomfortable in the back seat of a 172. When the flying portion came it was in a word blustery outside and the instructor asked me if I wanted to attempt a BFR in the wind. I told him that if he was ok with it I would much rather fly in the wind with a CFI than without. We both explained that the back seat ride would be even more turbulent and my wife said she was ok with it.

When the CFI started putting me through the maneuvers I said I wanted to talk my wife through everything so there would be fewer surprises. We did everything, slow flight, stalls, steep bank turns and the landings were all made with no less than a 10 kt crosswind.

With my letting her know what was going on and keeping the ball centered it was a non event and she acquired a much greater appreciation of what it takes to fly.

I have also done the full series with my son in the right seat. but he is a young strapping Naval Officer and though he enjoyed the ride, it did not phase him at all.

Although her schedule does not allow her to fly as often as she would like she is a great passenger and I have watched her crochet through turbulence that had me holding onto the glare shield.

So I agree with Duncan that it depends on the pax.
 
I'm afraid I don't understand the "no way in Hell" comments.

It is certainly something that should not be done without due consideration, and informed consent from all passengers, plus stopping whatever you're doing at the first sign of discomfort. But under no circumstances?

What unsafe thing can happen with back seat passengers that can't happen without them? Discomfort for the passengers is not unsafe by itself (though the subsequent distraction can become so)?

Now, it's not nice to surprise your passengers with a stall, and doing so may result in the passengers never getting in a light plane again. Especially if you screw up, dip a wing, and panic the recovery. And you should never show off to your passengers, ever. But there are other reasons one might maneuver with passengers that aren't showing off.

I did my Piper/TAA checkout with my son in the back seat. Why did he come along? His mom was out of town, and he wanted to (and the instructor agreed), so a babysitter seemed silly. This included slow flight in an Archer with the stall warning screaming and the PFD all red. It included turning stalls. And steep turns. And he got off the plane with a s**t eating grin on his face.

I also once demonstrated a single straight-ahead power off stall in the Archer to my wife -- with prior permission -- to make the point that a stall didn't mean falling out of the sky. She couldn't identify the stall break and didn't think it had happened (they are real gentle in that aircraft, which was why I chose it).
 
Go for it. GA needs more ambassadors like you. As an added bonus, you can have one of the passengers hold your beer so you don't make a mess
 
I find that a small percentage of the people I take up are interested in anything like that. Most of them just want to watch the world go by, or just get to where we're going.

For what it's worth, I'm 21 and most of the people that have flown with me are around the same age.
 
smltk1 said:
Everyone on board has flown in small planes with me before so they're not entirely new to the experience.
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Sounds perfectly reasonable. I've taken a few of my more adventurous friends along for maneuvers practice. I tell them it'll be like a serious amusement-park ride, so if they're ok with those, they should be ok with steep turns, stalls, lazy eights, etc.

I've had a few passengers become ill in ordinary flights (especially with turbulence), but the (more carefully selected) passengers who've come along for maneuvers have never had a problem.
 
Make sure your pax all stuff themselves with pizza, cheeseburgers or burritos before taking them up and doing that to them. :thumbsup:
 
Note that some of the manouvers will require you to be in the utility category which you will not be within with four people on board.
 
flyingron said:
Note that some of the manouvers will require you to be in the utility category which you will not be within with four people on board.
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None of the private pilot maneuvers need that for a 172. Spins do, as do steep turns above 60 deg. It might be a good idea for any high-G maneuver, though I suspect your passengers will be really upset well before the 3.8G normal category limit.

A 172 requires an empty back seat for utility category. Obviously impossible with four people.
 
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Brad Z said:
You may not see it, but most of the folks here see the possibility of something baaad happening.
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I would be concerned for a sudden accelerated stall in a turn. There was a fatal crash a couple of years ago with 18 year old guy and his friend in a 152. The radar showed them making a few turns, each time tighter and tighter, and having a great time until *snap*, over goes the wing and they went straight down into the ground.

I would say that ground proximity maneuvers are really fun for passengers. I do not tell them but I plan it all exactly well ahead, to know that I always have a place to land and to exit. I have never done stalls though. IMHO they are so-so fun, the zero g time is short when compared to big park attractions like free-fall towers. So even if they like it, they'll be disappointed. If I had an aerobatic airplane like Extra 300, it would be different, I suppose.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'm afraid I don't understand the "no way in Hell" comments.

It is certainly something that should not be done without due consideration, and informed consent from all passengers, plus stopping whatever you're doing at the first sign of discomfort. But under no circumstances?

What unsafe thing can happen with back seat passengers that can't happen without them? Discomfort for the passengers is not unsafe by itself (though the subsequent distraction can become so)?

Now, it's not nice to surprise your passengers with a stall, and doing so may result in the passengers never getting in a light plane again. Especially if you screw up, dip a wing, and panic the recovery. And you should never show off to your passengers, ever. But there are other reasons one might maneuver with passengers that aren't showing off.

I did my Piper/TAA checkout with my son in the back seat. Why did he come along? His mom was out of town, and he wanted to (and the instructor agreed), so a babysitter seemed silly. This included slow flight in an Archer with the stall warning screaming and the PFD all red. It included turning stalls. And steep turns. And he got off the plane with a s**t eating grin on his face.

I also once demonstrated a single straight-ahead power off stall in the Archer to my wife -- with prior permission -- to make the point that a stall didn't mean falling out of the sky. She couldn't identify the stall break and didn't think it had happened (they are real gentle in that aircraft, which was why I chose it).
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I'm also baffled by the "no way in hell" ideas from folks. I have some friends that are interested in aviation and are specifically interested in seeing what stalls and steep turns are like. They're thinking about going for their licenses at some point, and I can't think of any reason not to show them how those things work. I'd never do anything daredevil or crazy, but showing them things I learned in training seems completely reasonable.

Plus, I sometimes want to go on flights to do practice maneuvers/landings, and those same two friends always ask to come along for the ride. I see no reason to say no, but some of the responses on here suggest doing such practice solo.

Am I missing something? These maneuvers don't really seem all that dangerous to me. It's typical stuff you do during training, and should keep up with after you get your license. If there's no rule against it, and it's not that dangerous, why not do it with interested pax?
 
If they're truly interested, take 'em up individually and let 'em follow along on the controls in the front seat. The back seat is a totally different experience.

If they're into the back seat thing for the ride, do it near an airport and be reasy to terminate the flight if they feel bad. Don't force them to sit through an XC feeling queasy the rest of the way there.

And if you have bupkis for time in a fully loaded aircraft doing maneuvers, just load up a pile of non-breathing crap and go do it by yourself first. Make sure your skillset is what you think it is before subjecting other people to them.

No big deal either way other than their perception of the hobby/activity. Trust me, you make them hurl it'll come up at every dinner party from now until you're dead and everyone will nod knowingly that little airplanes are crazy and dangerous while you want to go hide in a corner.

Adventurous friends are great. Aviation isn't 100% about adventure aloft if it leads to bad experiences. I'd rather introduce folks to aviation on a nice smooth day with a cool lunch destination at the far end and let 'em get maneuvers from their CFI when the hook isn't just set, it's swallowed, along with the line and sinker. :)
 
I think people are concerned it will scare your friends away. But I think that can be mitigated with a careful discussion about what to expect. At least, that's how it worked for me.

We all have the preflight lecture where we tell new-to-light-aviation folks that the stall warning going off right before touchdown is a good thing, right? I always tell people to expect to get bounced around on final over the duck pond, and to expect some bumps crossing ridges. Giving a Bay Tour, I'll offer the choice of altitude -- 1500 has a better view, but it's below the mountain peaks and will be a lot more turbulent, than the more common 3500. It's also below the highest obstructions in the city (which is either really cool or scary), particularly Sutro Tower. That's important if you have a 430 in the aircraft, as it will give you a terrain alert!
 
With so many posting "Don't do it", I can understand why we have so many stall/spin accidents at low altitude.

I would make that right seater your CFI. I wish full gross/aft limit flying was taught in primary training. I am ashamed to say, my first 172N full gross flight was with my family. My second landing of that day was a night landing. Yes, I was current and barely out of training. Poor ADM on both parts.

Part of my 25 hr test flights in the RV-10 consisted of loading the plane to gross weight and then to the aft CG limit incrementally. I used dogfood and water. I wanted to get to know how it handled in different configurations. Then we started taking family trips loaded to gross and near the aft limit. There were no surprises. My wife and two kids understand that Dad must keep his skills up or we can all end up dead. My wife knows what our minimum speeds should be for the three different flap settings. She also knows the tail rumble before a no flap stall. She knows there is very little warning during a full flap stall, especially if she feels some g's being pulled. She knows to watch for quickly decaying airspeeds and not be afraid to let me know. She knows that flaps need to come up to half for go-arounds. I can do it all without her, but why not put my right seater to good use. We go up to 2000' AGL+ and practice all maneuvers at least every 90 days with baggage half full. We do it on cool, less turbulent days and they know we can stop at anytime.
 
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RV10flyer said:
Part of my 25 hr test flights consisted of loading the plane to gross weight and then to the aft CG limit. I used dogfood and water.
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Yup, dogfood and water, bundles of magazines, sack of fertilizer in the luggage compartment etc.
Had one of your stalls ended up in a spin into the ground, the headline would have been 'stunt plane pilot crashes in field', not '3 Leftside HS students lost in plane accident'.

If the OP wants to know how the plane stalls with an aft CG, he should load it up appropriately with inert stuff and go up with a CFI.
 
joycem137 said:
If there's no rule against it, and it's not that dangerous, why not do it with interested pax?
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Do it with bundled magazines in the back, to gross weight. Treat your passengers right- don't practice on them.

Going up for the first time at full gross will at minimum peel a neophyte's eyeballs back. And at worst, will hurt someone.
 
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