Man up or not?

M

MIFlyer

Pattern Altitude
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
1,657
Location
Mercer Island, WA
Display Name
Display name:
MIFlyer
So, I'm at a crossroads for deciding to buy or not... lots of context below and I welcome perspectives from those who've made some of these decisions ahead of me. I know these come up a lot and I've read a lot of old threads.

Me: 49, married with kids, two good incomes, but we live in a very expensive area, good investments, a little cash poor because I have everything tied up in investments (building spec house to sell, rentals, 401k, etc). Private pilot with about 180 hours. I currently belong to a great equity based flying club with a few Cessna singles (172/182).

What's changing: Well, I'm getting older, the kids are getting easier (we have activities, but "taking care of the kids" isn't really a job any more. I am pretty sure we'll buy a vacation/rental home in the next year. The vacation home is near an airport and is a 60-90 minute flight away (vs a 6+ hour drive).

Flying: I really haven't flow much the last 2 years besides currency. Some has been my busyness, but some has been that when I wake up, and feel like going for a flight, the planes or booked. I've had other times where I have wanted to fly to a destination, but because I have to work around weather, I've driven so that I don't get the club plane stuck somewhere for a few extra days. I feel like if the plane didn't have to be back to anyone, I would "go" much more often, since both my wife and I could work remotely for a few days with no drama if we got stuck by weather someplace. I also feel like I would do a quick TFR/weather check on a Saturday morning and take the plane up for an hour, whereas now it seems too difficult or is booked.

Bona fides: I have never maintained or owned a plane, and I guess I'm a little nervous about that. I don't have a ton of time to wrench on it myself, but can certainly do some things under supervision. The limiter would be more time available vs skill availalbe for helping the A&P maintain the plane. I expect my time to get more available over the next 24 months as i finish a couple of side real estate projects. I have restored a couple of obsolete trucks in the last two years, so I'm fairly decent at auto projects.

Options:

1. Stay in the club. Pros: Cheapest, takes the least time from me. Cons: Only 4 seaters (I really do have multiple times a year where 6-7 seats would be amazing), and< i have the scheduling issues which are generally OK, but it makes anything spontaneous not really work. I suppose I could get my IR (and I likely will at some point) to improve dispatch. 50 hours a year is around $7,600 a year all in and I don't have to deal with any MX/etc.

2. Buy into a 6 seat partnership. I may be able to buy into a Cherokee 6 for say 25K. If this one doens't pan out, I could seek something like this (though they're rare). This would get me the capabilities I need in a relatively simple plane, with costs not all the much higher than what I pay now (a few thousand a year more). I would have more scheduling freedom, but would sitll have 3 other partners to work around. I think the plane and finances would be perfect, but worry that scheduling around people would continue to take the spontaneity out of it. The system the partnership uses is each partner gets 1 week per month, where they don't have to reserve it, they just fly it anytime during their week. If you want to fly during someone else's week, you just call and ask them. It seems like a nice system and the partners are pretty cordial. I estimate that all in, with 50 hours a year of use, this would cost me something like $13K/year. I'd be participating in ownership (not sure which "officer" I'd be), but I'd certainly get real experience with registration, maintenance, insurance, etc.

3. Buy what I *think* I really want. I have the opportunity to buy a plane that perfectly fits the mission for around 70k. I would have full availability with it, but would also be all alone by my little self to manage everything that goes with one of these flying antiques. I anticipate that this would cost me around 22,000/year to fly my 50 hours, all in with MX/Insurance/etc, but would go down after a couple of years as my insurance in retract goes down from that first brutal year or two. Pros: Sole availability, leave your stuff in the plane, take it as long as you like, and leave it somewhere if need be, never have to check with anyone. Cons: Besides the money, which is a real consideration for me (I can afford either, but 22k hits you in the stomach a bit), I guess I'm more concerned about being a babe in the woods. Maybe I'm too wound up about this, as I'm a smart, mechanically inclined person, who gets houses built, restores old trucks and does 100 other things. I'm confident that I could learn these things, and I have two to four experienced pilto owners (2 in type) that would act as mentors for me. (one of which is local and has local (ish) MX figures out with an experienced IA.

I think the best compromise would be #2, but the best answer may actually be #3. Not just because I want it, but because #2 may not make it spontaneous enough that I actually use the silly thing all the time, if I'm still "checking" with people on availability, status of Mx, etc vs being accountable for all of it myself.
 
option 1. Get your IR. Especially in the PNW. Rent a plane for this purported vacation home mission which may or may not materialize. See if the family are as jazzed about your hobby.

Once you hit a 100 hour year in the club skylane, it's time to shop.

:)

$0.02
 
schmookeeg said:
option 1. Get your IR. Especially in the PNW. Rent a plane for this purported vacation home mission which may or may not materialize. See if the family are as jazzed about your hobby.

Once you hit a 100 hour year in the club skylane, it's time to shop.

:)

$0.02
Click to expand...

Thanks, the family does fly with whenever we can make ga work for the trip. I don’t think it addresses spontaneity or the ability to take everyone to stay in my club and get ir. There are no 6 seaters for rent until you’re an hour drive there wrong direction out. (You have to go north to Paine to find a 205

Ir would increase dispatch though of course


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Option 1 or 2, as a previous poster said. It all sounds nice to fly here and there with family, but does the dream become reality. I took the route of rentals, then large non-equity club, then private ownership at age 42 on a Grumman Cheetah then Tiger. Dreams didn’t become reality even after retirement. Having a simple fixed gear 4 seater to bop around in, but also gives me good XC capability is nice. It is hard to argue the spontaneity of owning your own plane (which is 80% of my flying these days), but if I had the setup of option 2 back 10 years ago, I would go for it. I have a good friend who owns a Cardinal 177 RG who has asked me to fly and/or partner up with him. The problem is he lives 65 miles from me.
 
Sounds like you can swing it if you want to. Airplanes are fairly liquid, and they don't depreciate like other toys, so you can always get out of it turns out to be more than you expected. I say watch and buy when the right plane at the right price comes along. That is probably next year, after the current market conditions shake out.

22K in annual costs sounds high for a 70K aircraft.
 
I would buy. These planes are depreciated assets. Worst case scenario, you find out you are struggling to afford it, and you sell it.
You will likely know if you can handle it within a year and if you sell, you will probably get somewhere around what you paid for it.
 
Sounds like you've thought it through pretty well. Don't be too afraid of ownership. There's definitely a learning curve; I always compare it to obtaining another rating. The key is finding a mechanic you can talk to and trust. It's worth finding this person before you buy. Know that the first year will cost you more than you think, and be prepared to write a check for the cost of the engine without blinking. Hopefully you won't need to, but at least you're prepared.

I spend probably 10-20 hours per month dealing with "airplane stuff". I could probably get away with less, but I enjoy helping/ watching when she's in the shop. Then there's cleaning and small repairs here & there. As a guy who spends a LOT of my time repairing and maintaining trucks & machines, it's kind of refreshing to drop the plane off and let someone else do it. That is, until the bill comes.

I'm don't know what kind of 6 seater you can get for 70k these days... if there is such an animal it's probably going to need a lot more money thrown at it to be reliable. Another concern is insurance for a low time, non-ifr pilot in a retract. Going to be expensive; ask me how I know :confused:
 
One other option to throw out for you: Buy a 4 seater, relatively cheap (if there is such a thing) to bop around in and maybe get your IR, and rent the six seater when you need it. You could fly up, rent the 205 when you need it, bring it back to home base and proceed on your trip, leaving your airplane there temporarily. After a lot of soul searching, this is the path I chose. I wound up not needing the rental nearly as much as I thought I would.
 
Do you have a storage location in mind if you went option 3? That seems to be a deal breaker for a lot of people these days.

Owning your own aircraft sure is awesome at times but you will be surprised how often you are still flying by yourself (I'm 34 and 2 kids, so somewhat similar). If you value being able to go fly whenever you want more than anything else owning is the way to go. However, buying into a Cherokee 6 with a limited number of people involved, that would be one sweet deal with almost all of the benefits of owning your own!

P.S. if you do buy, for the love of whatever you believe in get a good prebuy done on the aircraft!
 
I like Option 2. One issue with owning an airplane is you always know you can fly it tomorrow, so often you don’t. With the 1 week a month, you will feel like you need to go fly it that week, and will be more likely to plan flights and trips for that week.

Brian
 
A friend of mine was in a similar partnership, 3 people in a Cherokee 180D. It worked quite well. Only a couple of times he wanted to go somewhere for a trip that it didn't work out with the partner whose week it was.

But it is highly dependent on the partners.

Have you actually shopped planes? Have you seen the current prices?

Realize, that in the lower price range, you may be buying into higher maintenance costs, especially the first year.

The extra two seats are going to cost you in fuel burn on every flight.

If you have a couple of experienced owners in make/model, that goes a long way to making choice 3 work more smoothly.
 
Life is short. If you have the means and the family is on board, I’d go for it. Although, depending where you are, your first year you’ll understand that an Instrument Rating is likely a must for improved dispatch rates.

Not sure what you can get for $70k, I’d be leery of maintenance, so have a reserve and good A&P close by.
 
I bought. I like the availability of sole ownership and the familiarity associated with flying the same aircraft all the time. I also know how the a/c has honestly been flown/maintained. I chose the newest/best maintained and equipped model I could comfortably afford.
 
The comments around buying are good insight.

Which 6-seat retract are you seeing for $70k?

On the Cherokee 6 partnership, which also seems like a deal at a $100k valuation (is there a note against the plane at that valuation?) - let's say each partner flies your same 50 hours. All during the day on weekends - that still has the plane open 1/2 of weekend daylight a month. I think you'll get really great availability.

But as others have said - if you can afford to buy and the spouse is supportive - go for it. That is what you really want.
 
somorris said:
One other option to throw out for you: Buy a 4 seater, relatively cheap (if there is such a thing) to bop around in and maybe get your IR, and rent the six seater when you need it. You could fly up, rent the 205 when you need it, bring it back to home base and proceed on your trip, leaving your airplane there temporarily. After a lot of soul searching, this is the path I chose. I wound up not needing the rental nearly as much as I thought I would.
Click to expand...

It’s an interesting idea. The issue is I think I’d pay more or about the same to buy a 4 seater in similar condition. The block time to go rent would really add on to trip costs and block times, but I’ll analyze that scenario. I expect it would add 3 hours on each end of the trip to do it that way, plus currency requirements and costs, but doing that analysis may really Help me clarify, sincerely thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
It’s nice to have your own plane, the numbers will never make sense but that’s fine. Get your instrument rating and more experience quickly!

Saying you are cash poor and looking to buy an airplane can be problematic. A lot of previous posts said financing airplanes under 100k are challenging if that’s your plan. A lot of expenses for aviation come in bulk and at once, it isn’t a payment plan. If your engine needs an overhaul that’s an easy 35k+.
 
To give more context.

Option 2 is based on a partnership I’m aware of, but don’t know if they have any partners considering an exit note what equity price would be based on current market. A few years ago, only one partner was flying much. I’ve reached out to see if they are open to members right now

Option 3 is a plane that’s been gone through mechanically, including props and engines, but will always need tlc and does need paint pretty bad, but that could be in a couple of years. It’s a plane I’m very familiar with


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
If paint is bad then you can prob get away parking it outside if you are looking to save money. But having a hangar is very nice especially if you want to clean her up, oil change, basic mx, etc.
 
My $0.02 in a pretty large metro area - renting the 6-seater isn't that easy. Similar to what @MIFlyer said - not widely available.

And then there is being current (to rent when needed without a CFI recurrency flight) and proficient is a different animal too.

Lots of folks suggest it, but I haven't seen anyone really make it work practically. @kaiser rents a 6-seater now and again. Maybe he has insight into how realistic that is if you are only flying a total 50 hrs a year. (How many hrs did you actually fly in the last 12-months @MIFlyer ?)
 
#2 sounds best, but some things to consider:

- Is your schedule flexible enough to let you fly during the week? If not, your one week per month may turn out to be one weekend per month, and a little bad weather can keep you grounded during that limited opportunity.
- It may be harder to sell your share than to sell an entire airplane, should you need to unload.
- The plane will likely get more wear and tear. Will you be PO'd when you have a week-long trip planned, but the guy flying it the week before loses a vac pump and the plane goes down for maintenance?
- How will maintenance and upgrade decisions be made? If the other guys want new avionics and you don't, can they outvote you and make you obligated to help pay? What about a decision between a field OH and a remanufactured engine?

Having your own plane is great, but a partnership will get you more plane for the money if you can live with the drawbacks.
 
Yeah and I was looking into a partnership too, they said the airplane was down for like 4 months. If people want to throw money and upgrades into it often, it will be down a lot. My airplane was down for months before I purchased it, as part of the prebuy, and after I owned it, I think it was down for a week or so waiting for parts. Nothing too crazy, but if you’re painting a rosy picture (or expectation) of airplane ownership, you might be in for a surprise. I think I’ve been pretty lucky so far with my airplane and it’s reliability. Also can you commit to taking care of your airplane? I’ve been taking it slow lately but I still make a point to see her and fly her at least once a week. When traveling for extended periods of time, I’m going to ask someone if they can fly her to keep her warm while I’m gone.

I guess it isn’t like having a dog (requires daily interaction), but might be more like having a cat.
 
A few thoughts:

1) You are now a "little cash poor" but are talking about buying a vacation home and a plane. As you're not going to pay cash for another home, you'll have a cash sucking payment every month on that. And then you want to add an airplane on that?

2) You're not going to get a six seater for $70k.

3) Children actually take more time when they get older, not less (until they leave for college or job when they graduate).

4) Stay in the club and get your IR for now.
 
What’s the most you can lose if you take the “once in a lifetime” option, and can you afford that loss financially? Buy if you can. You can always take a step back if you want. Live life.
 
I fly about 40 hrs per year in my Tiger. Hangar is $220/month, insurance is $800/year, fixed inspection annual $900/year, but usually around $1200 with taking care of any maintenance issues, 3 oil changes per year (usually time out on months versus hrs) run $125 each for oil and filter. These fixed costs are all before I fly the first hour. Each hour then runs 10 gals/hr x $6.25 per gal or $62.50 per hour. I’ll let you add it all up, BUT, this does not include any major issues or upgrades.
 
I've made so many mistakes, I don't value my own opinion much. The one thing I am going to suggest is that you ask around about maintenance availability. I always get a chuckle about people wondering if they got cheated on price. If there is any doubt about your maintenance provider, remember you will be trusting your family's life to them. Not a great place to save money. Find a source of good quality maintenance for what you plan to fly before you fly.
 
mandm said:
It’s nice to have your own plane, the numbers will never make sense but that’s fine. Get your instrument rating and more experience quickly!

Saying you are cash poor and looking to buy an airplane can be problematic. A lot of previous posts said financing airplanes under 100k are challenging if that’s your plan. A lot of expenses for aviation come in bulk and at once, it isn’t a payment plan. If your engine needs an overhaul that’s an easy 35k+.
Click to expand...

I figure 120 the first year to include b purchase, tax, Mx , insurance, 25 hours of dual and another 25 hours of fun

I expect that will drive down costs with 50 retract and 50 in type vs zero. I would also consider liability only for a year or two.

The 25 dual would likely include more ir hours do I could get close to the rating in a year


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
One other thing to consider. If you can’t find a good solution for renting or partnering in a six seater, I’d bet there are others close to you who are in the same situation. Pretty much no one will express interest in buying one WITH you, but I’d bet if you owned one and looked for a partner or two they’d come out of the woodwork.

I bought my plane solo, and it’s now owned by three of us as equal share equity owners. Virtually no competition for flying time, and we split the cost three ways. It’s a good solution for all of us, and I got 2/3 of my cash investment back. Just a thought.
 
I hedge the risk of airplane unavailability by being a member of multiple clubs / flight schools. I’m up to 4 now with a combined fleet of 30-ish! But I still wish I had my own plane.

Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
@kaiser rents a 6-seater now and again
Click to expand...
In our metro area, there’s one non-equity (for profit) club with 2 6 seaters (Lance, Aztec) and a flight school with a 6 seater (Saratoga). There is also a 421C and a PC12 NGX for rent here if you have money burning a hole in your pockets.
 
Please describe the option 3 aircraft make/model/engine time etc.
 
MIFlyer said:
To give more context.

Option 2 is based on a partnership I’m aware of, but don’t know if they have any partners considering an exit note what equity price would be based on current market. A few years ago, only one partner was flying much. I’ve reached out to see if they are open to members right now

Option 3 is a plane that’s been gone through mechanically, including props and engines, but will always need tlc and does need paint pretty bad, but that could be in a couple of years. It’s a plane I’m very familiar with


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Props and engines, looks like option 3 is a $70k multi engine aircraft.
 
The old rule of 100 hours/year before it makes sense to own is outdated. Buy an airplane. See if you like it. Hell, think about financing a portion since rates are still low for airplanes. Having an airplane is great, even if you only fly it 40 hours a year. There will be more headaches, but since your job is flexible with unforeseen weather issues, just buy something. You may find that vacation home options open up significantly or you could end up using the new place much more with an hour trip vs a long drive to get there.
 
Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) said:
My $0.02 in a pretty large metro area - renting the 6-seater isn't that easy. Similar to what @MIFlyer said - not widely available.

And then there is being current (to rent when needed without a CFI recurrency flight) and proficient is a different animal too.

Lots of folks suggest it, but I haven't seen anyone really make it work practically. @kaiser rents a 6-seater now and again. Maybe he has insight into how realistic that is if you are only flying a total 50 hrs a year. (How many hrs did you actually fly in the last 12-months @MIFlyer ?)
Click to expand...
To put a point on this, I went and looked in more detail at this to give it a fair evaluation. The aircraft with "6" seats is an hour away. They are 260 hour (plus tax) plus instructors are 80/hr AND they reuqire you've flown in the last 60 days in their aircraft or you need a new checkout. I feel like i would spend all my time sitting in traffic to Everett, WA to stay current in case I want to bring a couple of friends to the beach. Ultimately, I'd never do it.

so if I really want the ability to carry 6, even sometimes, I need either a sole ownership or partnership. There is literally not anything available within a reasonable distance that I'd actually use it, and it would be even less spontaneous than now.
 
Since you're in the cloudy PNW, and your goal is to fly your family on vacation, I'd prioritize the IR ticket before taking on the burden of ownership.

Before I purchased my 182 RG, I scrutinized every aspect of my budget, as a result, there were no major financial surprises. What I failed to predict was the amount of time it takes to own and maintain an airplane.

Be brutally honest about how much family support/involvement you will have. If the wife isn't on board with the purchase, each trip to the airport becomes a negotiation. I will admit, time away from the family is easier once the kids are a little older and self-sufficient.

I had visions of filling up the four seats in my Skylane, but in the end, I ended up removing the rear bench seat because I've literally had no rear seat passenger in all the years I've owned it.

No regrets on my decision to purchase. I've always wanted my own airplane since I was a kid. It was a scary move initially, with so many unknowns, but fast forward a few years, I love it. Love the freedom from the rental fleet and onerous schedule constraints. Heck, I love to just sit in my hangar and stare at the plane knowing I've achieved a dream I've had since I was a kid.
 
tree9er said:
Life is short. If you have the means and the family is on board, I’d go for it. Although, depending where you are, your first year you’ll understand that an Instrument Rating is likely a must for improved dispatch rates.

Not sure what you can get for $70k, I’d be leery of maintenance, so have a reserve and good A&P close by.
Click to expand...
i'm not a YOLO kind of guy, but the "life is short" is kind of what's hitting me. It'll never "pencil out" for me to own a plane, but life and health is finite and I feel like while next year is always better than this year to put money into a non-revenue producing asset, at some point, you have to go for it and start enjoying it.
 
Half Fast said:
#2 sounds best, but some things to consider:

- Is your schedule flexible enough to let you fly during the week? If not, your one week per month may turn out to be one weekend per month, and a little bad weather can keep you grounded during that limited opportunity.
- It may be harder to sell your share than to sell an entire airplane, should you need to unload.
- The plane will likely get more wear and tear. Will you be PO'd when you have a week-long trip planned, but the guy flying it the week before loses a vac pump and the plane goes down for maintenance?
- How will maintenance and upgrade decisions be made? If the other guys want new avionics and you don't, can they outvote you and make you obligated to help pay? What about a decision between a field OH and a remanufactured engine?

Having your own plane is great, but a partnership will get you more plane for the money if you can live with the drawbacks.
Click to expand...
Thanks, these are really good perspectives. Yes, I work around 50 hours a week at my "day job" and while it's flexible, it's mostly during normal office hours, as I have meetings scheduled with customers (I'm in sales). On MX decisions, that's a good point. the current partners are older and the stack/and P&I is old and worn, but the plane is kept mechanically sound. It'd be nice if it had a nice paintjob and an IFD in it, but most of the partners are flying it 20 hours a year back and forth to a couple of specific destinations, so I could forsee them being uninterested in upgrades like that. Only one typically flies IFR, so the instruments are pretty rudimentary.

Engine and prop are low time and sound.
 
mandm said:
Yeah and I was looking into a partnership too, they said the airplane was down for like 4 months. If people want to throw money and upgrades into it often, it will be down a lot. My airplane was down for months before I purchased it, as part of the prebuy, and after I owned it, I think it was down for a week or so waiting for parts. Nothing too crazy, but if you’re painting a rosy picture (or expectation) of airplane ownership, you might be in for a surprise. I think I’ve been pretty lucky so far with my airplane and it’s reliability. Also can you commit to taking care of your airplane? I’ve been taking it slow lately but I still make a point to see her and fly her at least once a week. When traveling for extended periods of time, I’m going to ask someone if they can fly her to keep her warm while I’m gone.

I guess it isn’t like having a dog (requires daily interaction), but might be more like having a cat.
Click to expand...
This is getting to the heart of it. My *time* is the toughest commodity right now, particularly since I live 25 minutes from the airport, so it's a little bit of a thing to go to the plane. I do feel like I would integrate it into my life a bit (regular sunday fly out breakfast with my parents that live 100 miles away/etc). lots of excuses for little flights like that. I own 3 old trucks (early 70's), so I kind of understand that I'll have a latch/switch/piece of weatherstripping to adjust everytime I see the plane.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top