Making the tough go/no go decisions...

RyanShort1 said:
I understand, but it's dependent on pilot ability, not aircraft capability.
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Hmmm, I never questioned "pilot ability", just said I wouldn't want to be getting banged around in one in those conditions. If you enjoy it, have at it.
 
RyanB said:
That could be argued both ways. How does severe turbulence affect the aircraft structure?
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That's why I'll heed sigmets, generally not worth finding out. Airmets on the other hand.....
 
Shepherd said:
I can't think of a single instance where someone died or was injured deciding not to go,
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There are missions far more important than a burger or a paycheck.

For some; it’s the flight you didn’t make that you never forget.
 
JuggyJet said:
I enjoy it. Keep making them!





That is NOT true. And, it MUST NOT be.
You missed it. Oldmanb777 wrote “ALMOST impossible”.
And, many of us here are both professional and GA pilots.

While it is extremely rare, we airline pilots do make no-go decisions, too. A series of flights ahead of us just took off, now it was my turn to go. All lined up, a few more radar sweeps, a couple of tower doppler reports, staring outside the windshield...it takes a little courage, but I asked my FO to tell the tower “we want to get off the runway and wait it out”. Different day, different flight: The tower was reporting severe turbulence on our departure corridor...and people were still taking off. Flying into “known” severe turbulence? Really? I asked my FO to tell the tower that we wanted to wait it out. In both cases, the rest of the herd also shut down their engines and waited things out. These are not the only cases, but you get the idea...

GA or Pro, experience level and environment may differ, but we all should posses the common aviator’s mind set when it comes to safety.
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Bravo. We need more people without the herd mentality and the ability to think for themselves. Had you taken off, how many behind you wouldnt have shut down and just followed the leader.
 
Jim K said:
The "cirrus pilot stuff" is because the guy in the video was.... flying a Cirrus. Had he been flying a 172, id have called him "Skyhawk pilot", and been much more impressed.

The fact that you view the term "cirrus pilot" as a pejorative says more about you than me :p
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Haha I understand, my comment wasn't directed at you actually, pardon that, just seemed like the OP elected to make a video about "look at this Cirrus loser!" which is a bit of a tired trope at this point.

MauleSkinner said:
his perspective was probably skewed by the OP when he read your post.
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Correct, thanks, and my fault for not making that clear

Lindberg said:
Making fun of the city's Cirrus pilot for clicks seems a tad uncool to me, but <shrug>.
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Exactly!!

MauleSkinner said:
Because the Cirrus driver was obviously the only person stupid enough to fly that day...as indicated by the conversation between the tower and other aircraft in flight
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I guess, but he figured he'd give it a shot, ultimately exercised good judgment, and came back.. not sure what the value is in making a YouTube ridiculing him but it is what it is. I'm sure most, if not all, of us have had flights we've learned from..
 
Tantalum said:
MauleSkinner said:
Because the Cirrus driver was obviously the only person stupid enough to fly that day...as indicated by the conversation between the tower and other aircraft in flight. ;)
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I guess, but he figured he'd give it a shot, ultimately exercised good judgment, and came back.. not sure what the value is in making a YouTube ridiculing him but it is what it is. I'm sure most, if not all, of us have had flights we've learned from..
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I think you may have missed the nuance in Maule's quote Tantalum, give it another read, it's really spot on and funny.
 
Tantalum said:
I guess, but he figured he'd give it a shot, ultimately exercised good judgment, and came back.. not sure what the value is in making a YouTube ridiculing him but it is what it is. I'm sure most, if not all, of us have had flights we've learned from..
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I wouldn't even go so far as to say it was a "judgment" issue that caused him to return...or at least not a safety-related judgment. it was more likely a comfort issue. It appears to me that the OP is making baseless judgments about the Cirrus pilot's judgment.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Because the Cirrus driver was obviously the only person stupid enough to fly that day...as indicated by the conversation between the tower and other aircraft in flight. ;)
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On the other hand, I wonder how many other aircraft would have launched if the Cirrus continued on its merry way. :)
 
asicer said:
On the other hand, I wonder how many other aircraft would have launched if the Cirrus continued on its merry way. :)
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maybe the OP's video would've been "How I made the wrong decision to not fly", or "Everybody else jumped off the bridge, so I should've, too"?
 
Come on!,, Seriously... If we can’t make fun of a Cirrus pilot, who can we make fun of?? Sheesh! :)
 
I was really amused by the conversation of the cirrus pilot and ATC when I heard it listening to liveAtC as I was driving. I didn’t say anything pejorative about him. Never said he was stupid or impugned his judgment. I wondered out loud what was going on in his cockpit that made him change his mind twice. The controllers reactions were and still are amusing to me. He was clearly disappointed and a little frustrated that he tried as much as he is allowed to warn the pilot, who didn’t seem to get the message. That I relayed the story and explained their communication is not me bagging on the pilot. That easily could have been me in the air that day, which is more the point..along with noting that hearing his actual experience sealed the deal on my no go decision. It was a valuable learning moment. You guys are a trip with the driving and talking thing.
 
Shepherd said:
I can't think of a single instance where someone died or was injured deciding not to go,
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Sometimes people die when you don’t go, depending on the line of work you’re in.
 
DavidWhite said:
Sometimes people die when you don’t go, depending on the line of work you’re in.
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I never would have thought of that. I always love when someone’s different perspective surprises me.
 
As a kid I flew with my dad and his friend in the friends Comanche into a storm on our way to Canada for a fishing trip. I was maybe 10. My dad had his ppl but was in the rear with me. Pilots son was right seat. BAD storm. Pilots son who flew all the time needed a bag. White knuckling the seat frame to keep from hitting the roof. Imc. Lightning. Hail. Bad bad stuff. I remember even at that age intently focusing on the attitude indicator. My dad told me later he was worried what he'd have to tell my mom if something happened...then realized he wouldn't have to. Like I said, bad! We were following what turned out to be a king air. The Pirep from the king air "we've been on better rides at great America!" Shortly after that we did a 180 and went around.

That was one of the most valuable lessons all of us learned. It's not worth it. Fast forward 5 years and coming back from the Nascar race at Talladega in the Cherokee Six. We see storms popping up that we can get around. Then a bigger one, but probably doable. We put er down and got a hotel, largely from that flight from years earlier. We would have been fighting day light and my dad's color deficient and that storm was when it was time to call it. Airport manager was a nice old guy with a new chevy truck. Drove us to the hotel. Hotel was new and the traffic pattern was wonky. Got into a dead end with the big boulders they use for drainage between us and the hotel parking lot. Old man in his new truck..."This is what insurance is for...they want you to go through the rocks!" So got an inside joke to tell for making that "hard" decision.
 
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FlyingMonkey said:
You guys are a trip with the driving and talking thing.
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Driving and talking.
Driving and fooling with cameras.
Driving and fooling with live atc.
Etc

it seems you conceived, wrote, performed, and produced a YouTube video while driving in the passing lane of a highway.
 
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About the only thing that really "concerns" me about the video is the concept that ATC is "disappointed" with the Cirrus guy. I really think worrying about whether ATC is pleased or disappointed is not a healthy tendency for a pilot to have, the tendency to want to please ATC. It's gotten people killed in the past.

One instance that comes to mind is the pilot, a Cirrus pilot, who crashed after being repeatedly vectored around Hobby for other traffic. ATC was trying to be helpful there too, rather than vectoring that pilot back to approach to be re-sequenced. We have no idea what was going on in that pilot's mind, but she was PIC and could have stopped what was going on by telling ATC she wanted to go back to approach and be resequenced.

Pilots by regulation are given ultimate authority over their flight, this is for good reason. Worrying about "pleasing" ATC should never be a concern in any circumstance in my opinion, the only thing a pilot should worry about is safely and legally completing his flight. ATC liking you is nice, but if they don't, it doesn't matter.
 
DavidWhite said:
Sometimes people die when you don’t go, depending on the line of work you’re in.
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And that lingering concern has killed plenty of medevac crew and passengers. It’s hard to separate a sense of duty and mission from flight safety. In the military world, those same decisions becomes even harder.
 
PaulS said:
About the only thing that really "concerns" me about the video is the concept that ATC is "disappointed" with the Cirrus guy. I really think worrying about whether ATC is pleased or disappointed is not a healthy tendency for a pilot to have, the tendency to want to please ATC......
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ATC was concerned for the guy’s safety. The cirrus pilot didn’t give a shyte what ATC thought.
 
eman1200 said:
ATC was concerned for the guy’s safety. The cirrus pilot didn’t give a shyte what ATC thought.
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I'm talking about the original poster, not the Cirrus guy. The Cirrus guy did what he thought was correct which is the exact point I was making. Maule correctly pointed out that the controller was griping about the Cirrus guy flying to other pilots on who were flying or about to fly the exact moment, WTF is up with that?
 
Jim K said:
I was more impressed the cirrus pilot managed to take off and land without balling it up. I'm not sure what the max demonstrated x wind is on a Cirrus, but the pipers i fly run out of rudder around 20 knots. If it's above the max demonstrated number, that's a no-go for me. One of the reasons being based at an airport with perpendicular runways is important to me.
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I comfortably landed an Arrow in a 21 knot XW. Crosswinds are largely a non event in the Tiger and Bonanza.

Dave Theisen said:
We get paid to say no-go. Kobe’s pilot didn’t do his job that day.
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The NTSB said the go decision wasn't an issue. It was the continue decision
 
Great video as usual. No matter what your subject is, the professionalism of your production makes every video a cut above anything else out there. They are all interesting. Sometimes it is good to just be entertained within a flying topic instead of a ground school type of video.

Your decision is good with me. Keep the videos coming!
 
Interesting thread discussion.

I fly out of an airport in the shadow of the Continental Divide, on the lee side. We get a lot of days with mechanical turbulence from the prevailing westerly flow. I've noticed most pilots of light aircraft, and their passengers, rate light turbulence as moderate and moderate turbulence as severe.

I know one unfortunate pilot here that spent years building a lovely homebuilt and on one of his early flights got into some turbulence that frightened him so much he sold the plane and stopped flying.

I fly primarily for the pure enjoyment of it, even when the trip itself has some other purpose. Over the years I've had rough air days when I launched and carried on, generally headed north or east away from the rocks. And I've had days where prudence and discomfort dictated turning back. No big deal.
 
Shepherd said:
I can't think of a single instance where someone died or was injured deciding not to go,
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I can't think of a single instance where someone died or was injured deciding not to learn to fly, not to buy a plane, or not to travel via GA. But here we are.
 
eman1200 said:
I dunno, I guess I always looked at that as an EASY no-go decision. guess u learn something new all the time.
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That's every youtube flying video. Overly dramatic.
 
I so wanted to give @FlyingMonkey a hard time about scrubbing. I really did. That said, last year I took off into conditions just like those described in the video. It was the only VFR Wx I’d seen for a month, and the only I was going to see for another. The second I took off I knew I didn’t belong there. I completed the mission (went out to lunch). I was the only one flying that day, and got some good experience in challenging conditions. The difference was the winds were mostly down the runways (we build them that way in the East).

@FlyingMonkey, your videos are the best flying videos I’ve seen on YouTube. They’re the only ones I don’t fast forward on about half the content. You ever hit Oshkosh I owe you a beer, or something stronger. You bring that gorgeous family of yours and I promise Origami...
 
FlyingMonkey said:
I was really amused by the conversation of the cirrus pilot and ATC when I heard it listening to liveAtC as I was driving. I didn’t say anything pejorative about him. Never said he was stupid or impugned his judgment. I wondered out loud what was going on in his cockpit that made him change his mind twice. The controllers reactions were and still are amusing to me. He was clearly disappointed and a little frustrated that he tried as much as he is allowed to warn the pilot, who didn’t seem to get the message. That I relayed the story and explained their communication is not me bagging on the pilot. That easily could have been me in the air that day, which is more the point..along with noting that hearing his actual experience sealed the deal on my no go decision. It was a valuable learning moment. You guys are a trip with the driving and talking thing.
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Who knows, maybe he had to turn around because the guests and turbulence made his wife puke.;)
 
Good work on the video. You had 9 minutes of content and made a 9-minute video. I’ve seen far too many 30-minute videos with less than 9 minutes of content. I’ll join in the plan to buy you a beer at Oshkosh. I might ask you what microphone you use for your video in the car, though. Just another place where your production values shine through.

And good work on the no-go decision. I would have gone in those wind conditions, but that’s because I have experience flying in winds like that. I had to land the Champ in stronger, gustier, cross-windier winds one time because I didn’t have enough fuel to wait or to continue to an airport with less insanity. I literally landed, exited the runway, and waited for the wind to go down before I dared get out of the plane, lest it blow away. Sometimes you can’t even stop flying once you reach the tie-down.

But, watching the video, I realized that I don’t have experience flying in California so there are probably things I’m not considering. The sandstorm was a specific thing that jumped out at me. When it blows 100mph here, we mostly contend with ground blizzards or tumbleweeds, plus the occasional flying trampoline. For all I know, 15G25 in California means dust that chokes my engine and prevents a successful instrument approach anywhere.

Even if another pilot would have gone, every no-go decision is a good one, because it means that you were not comfortable flying that day. If you aren’t comfortable flying, you have no business getting into the air. The other pilot might have different experience than you, or he could just be an idiot.
 
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I'll join in the Oshkosh beer toast.. praying to the faimed aviation gods that it happens this year

Having said that, I've never let some wings aloft or "turbulence" bother me

#CirrusLife
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I hope Osh happens and I hope we can be there. Never been and it looks like a lot of fun!
 
Jim K said:
@PaulS I'm surprised atc made such a big deal of it.
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They've probably seen some guys have "issues" ...

RyanShort1 said:
That's pretty normal flying weather in West Texas.
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My biggest crosswind was in the Tiger here in west Texas (31G34) direct ... it was one of my easiest landings as there was almost no gust factor. Landed with 55 knot wind in Carlsbad NM ... it was directly down the runway, smooth as silk, felt like a helicopter landing. I've taken off in 40G44 slight crosswind as I was on long XC, climbed to 11.5 where it was smooth and enjoyed a 60 knot tailwind to San Antonio during March.

N1120A said:
I comfortably landed an Arrow in a 21 knot XW. Crosswinds are largely a non event in the Tiger and Bonanza.
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My previous Tiger was a BEAST regarding crosswind ... the new RV (same rudder size) I have to reduce my max direct crosswind to 25 knots (rudder won't hold alignment above that) probably due to decreased weight. The Tiger could ...
 
danhagan said:
My previous Tiger was a BEAST regarding crosswind ... the new RV (same rudder size) I have to reduce my max direct crosswind to 25 knots (rudder won't hold alignment above that) probably due to decreased weight. The Tiger could ...
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You might consider adding VGs. Adding VGs made a huge difference in slow speed control surface authority in my 182.
 
AlphaMike said:
You might consider adding VGs. Adding VGs made a huge difference in slow speed control surface authority in my 182.
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I'm asking seriously (not being funny or snide) ... did rudder authority seem to improve with the VGs? Does your bird handle high crosswind better? Reason I ask is both the RV and Tiger have 60 MPH (not knot) stall speeds and was surprised there's so much difference between the two as far as max direct crosswind capability/rudder authority (Tiger at least 8 knots better).
 
danhagan said:
They've probably seen some guys have "issues" ...



My biggest crosswind was in the Tiger here in west Texas (31G34) direct ... it was one of my easiest landings as there was almost no gust factor. Landed with 55 knot wind in Carlsbad NM ... it was directly down the runway, smooth as silk, felt like a helicopter landing. I've taken off in 40G44 slight crosswind as I was on long XC, climbed to 11.5 where it was smooth and enjoyed a 60 knot tailwind to San Antonio during March.



My previous Tiger was a BEAST regarding crosswind ... the new RV (same rudder size) I have to reduce my max direct crosswind to 25 knots (rudder won't hold alignment above that) probably due to decreased weight. The Tiger could ...
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My record is direct cross wind 25 G30 in an SR 22 at Scottsdale on a checkout ride. Still plenty of rudder at touchdown, non event, but the gusts were pretty lively and the wind was swinging around pretty good.

Once you are off the ground, wind speed is pretty much a non issue. Just have to watch for terrain induced issues and obviously turbulence issues, but high winds don't necessarily always include those problems.

I was on an IFR training flight, flying vectors, the controller called twice with 10 degree turns, finally he asked me what my heading was, I told him, it was what he had asked me to do. He said "must be windy up there" I told him I was showing a 47 knot direct crosswind, he said that's why, turn another 20. I was at 2,000 feet, smooth as glass.
 
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