Making the tough go/no go decisions...

FlyingMonkey

FlyingMonkey

Pre-takeoff checklist
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FlyingMonkey
Sometimes making the go/no go decision can be difficult, as the temptation to complete the mission is always really strong. I learned a lot on this one, including what ATC sounds like when they are diappointed in a Cirrus pilot....

 
I'll sum this one up..........pilot checks the weather, weather is bad, he doesn't go, then makes a 10 minute overly dramatic but always well-edited video about it. there ya go, "tough" no-go decision when there's severe turbulence and strong wind/LLWS advisories. I dunno, I guess I always looked at that as an EASY no-go decision. guess u learn something new all the time.
 
eman1200 said:
I'll sum this one up..........pilot checks the weather, weather is bad, he doesn't go, then makes a 10 minute overly dramatic but always well-edited video about it. there ya go, "tough" no-go decision when there's severe turbulence and strong wind/LLWS advisories. I dunno, I guess I always looked at that as an EASY no-go decision. guess u learn something new all the time.
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Apparently it wasn’t an easy no go decision for the cirrus pilot! Ha. The temptation is strong to complete the mission, not disappoint friends, and get there. That’s sort of the point...and also a look at what the actual conditions are like based on that forecast if you would try to fly, as shown by the ATC interaction. I guarantee other pilots have turned easy decisions into hard ones even when the right answer is staring them in the face. It’s part of the private pilot experience and I thought it was a worthwhile story to tell. It may not be for everyone and that’s ok with me- I still enjoyed it! :)
 
I wonder how many were aboard the Cirrus...
 
Personally, every no-go decision is "tough." I'm not saying making the decision is all that hard, the decision is the easiest part. Having to turn around and just walk away when you've planned all week for a flight, or a lesson, or to solo, or to XYZ, can be tough on many pilots and it leads to accidents!
 
Oldmanb777 said:
Put your paycheck on the line, and it becomes almost impossible to make the right decision.
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As you know, airlines are always a go.

It’s totally different for a private pilot without an instrument rating, flying a small craft without heated surfaces for ice.

Over the years I have learned this forum is about GA pilots, not profesional pilots.

The hardest decision is the 135 guys, who don’t have all the protections of 121 and the union to back the decision.
 
I was more impressed the cirrus pilot managed to take off and land without balling it up. I'm not sure what the max demonstrated x wind is on a Cirrus, but the pipers i fly run out of rudder around 20 knots. If it's above the max demonstrated number, that's a no-go for me. One of the reasons being based at an airport with perpendicular runways is important to me.
 
Jim K said:
I was more impressed the cirrus pilot managed to take off and land without balling it up. I'm not sure what the max demonstrated x wind is on a Cirrus, but the pipers i fly run out of rudder around 20 knots. If it's above the max demonstrated number, that's a no-go for me. One of the reasons being based at an airport with perpendicular runways is important to me.
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For the 20 it's 20 knots for the 22 it's 21 knots. They perform very well in crosswind, the crosswind advertised was within the realm of a proficient pilot.


RE: The OP


As far as the Cirrus go/no go decision, judging from the number of pireps a lot of other pilots had chosen to go also. The LLWS +10/-10 not really a big deal for the Cirrus.

Would I have gone in those conditions, nope, severe sigmet is a no for me, I wouldn't have been driving to the airport thinking about it either. But I realize there are many pilots with more experience than me who may be ok with those conditions, to each his own, who am I to judge their decision to go. This isn't SLD or t storms.

Would I have landed in those conditions if I were coming from some where else and been surprised by them. Yup. The crosswind factor was 13 knots, with the gusts up to 22. I'd try that ready for a go around if I couldn't hold the centerline, but a pilot proficient in the Cirrus, that shouldn't be an issue.

ATC disappointment? Are you kidding me, I couldn't give a rats ass how ATC "feels" about me, pilots either. Most ATC aren't pilots and I've run into enough controllers having a bad day that I ignore their tone. Give me the info, I'll make the decision that's correct for me.

I'm thinking the Cirrus guy knew what these conditions were like, didn't mind a rough ride but probably had a passenger who was upset so he came back. He landed and was fine. About the only thing I'd fault him for if I have it right, is bringing a passenger up who he wasn't sure was ok with getting banged around.

My take, YMMV.
 
PaulS said:
For the 20 it's 20 knots for the 22 it's 21 knots. They perform very well in crosswind, the crosswind advertised was within the realm of a proficient pilot.


RE: The OP


As far as the Cirrus go/no go decision, judging from the number of pireps a lot of other pilots had chosen to go also. The LLWS +10/-10 not really a big deal for the Cirrus.

Would I have gone in those conditions, nope, severe sigmet is a no for me, I wouldn't have been driving to the airport thinking about it either. But I realize there are many pilots with more experience than me who may be ok with those conditions, to each his own, who am I to judge their decision to go. This isn't SLD or t storms.

Would I have landed in those conditions if I were coming from some where else and been surprised by them. Yup. The crosswind factor was 13 knots, with the gusts up to 22. I'd try that ready for a go around if I couldn't hold the centerline, but a pilot proficient in the Cirrus, that shouldn't be an issue.

ATC disappointment? Are you kidding me, I couldn't give a rats ass how ATC "feels" about me, pilots either. Most ATC aren't pilots and I've run into enough controllers having a bad day that I ignore their tone. Give me the info, I'll make the decision that's correct for me.

I'm thinking the Cirrus guy knew what these conditions were like, didn't mind a rough ride but probably had a passenger who was upset so he came back. He landed and was fine. About the only thing I'd fault him for if I have it right, is bringing a passenger up who he wasn't sure was ok with getting banged around.

My take, YMMV.
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Agreed...there was nothing that said it was inherently unsafe to fly. Uncomfortable? Yes. But it wasn’t raining airplane parts that day.
 
I’ll sum this up: good call!
—
If you had some reasonable expectation of smooth air at cruise and just enduring the bumps during departure and arrival, maybe you go, helped by the fact you have no pax on this one. But such was not the case. And, that makes for simply miserable flying.

Another consideration: with the level of turbulence you could reasonably expect (and thus, had to plan for), you couldn’t just toss your not-inconsiderable volume of costly and solid equipment (aka projectiles) into the plane. The act of securing and removing the stuff (if you have proper cargo securing gear in the first place) is probably an aggregate of another hour.

Naw, You made the right call.

The video is fun and entertaining, and might serve to give pause to another pilot who’s on the edge of making a poor decision. So, don’t stop... mmmmK?
 
@PaulS I couldn't remember the numbers quoted in the video, thanks for doing the math. A 13 knot xwind is not a big deal...gusting to 22 makes it a bit more exciting, but I'd certainly give it a shot. I'm surprised atc made such a big deal of it.
 
Jim K said:
@PaulS I couldn't remember the numbers quoted in the video, thanks for doing the math. A 13 knot xwind is not a big deal...gusting to 22 makes it a bit more exciting, but I'd certainly give it a shot. I'm surprised atc made such a big deal of it.
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That's pretty normal flying weather in West Texas. That's pretty doable on takeoff unless you are in a "kite" but of course landing is more interesting, but thankfully many airports have more than one runway option.
 
Jim K said:
@PaulS I couldn't remember the numbers quoted in the video, thanks for doing the math. A 13 knot xwind is not a big deal...gusting to 22 makes it a bit more exciting, but I'd certainly give it a shot. I'm surprised atc made such a big deal of it.
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Lol, I hope I did it right.
 
FlyingMonkey said:
..... It may not be for everyone and that’s ok with me- I still enjoyed it! :)
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I enjoy it. Keep making them!

Oldmanb777 said:
Put your paycheck on the line, and it becomes almost impossible to make the right decision.
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Kritchlow said:
As you know, airlines are always a go.

Over the years I have learned this forum is about GA pilots, not profesional pilots.
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That is NOT true. And, it MUST NOT be.
You missed it. Oldmanb777 wrote “ALMOST impossible”.
And, many of us here are both professional and GA pilots.

While it is extremely rare, we airline pilots do make no-go decisions, too. A series of flights ahead of us just took off, now it was my turn to go. All lined up, a few more radar sweeps, a couple of tower doppler reports, staring outside the windshield...it takes a little courage, but I asked my FO to tell the tower “we want to get off the runway and wait it out”. Different day, different flight: The tower was reporting severe turbulence on our departure corridor...and people were still taking off. Flying into “known” severe turbulence? Really? I asked my FO to tell the tower that we wanted to wait it out. In both cases, the rest of the herd also shut down their engines and waited things out. These are not the only cases, but you get the idea...

GA or Pro, experience level and environment may differ, but we all should posses the common aviator’s mind set when it comes to safety.
 
@FlyingMonkey - You made a good call, nice job! I would’ve done the same.

Great video too!
 
A friend of mine just quit his job flying freight because they wanted him to take chances he felt were dangerous....single pilot in a Caravan.

We lost 2 local pilots a couple years ago...gethomeitis kills !
 
JuggyJet said:
Well, of course. Before YouTube, there were quality TV programs. Nowadays? YouTube it is! :D
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I don't mind the shows, but "look at me" I can do without.

Specifically people who feel the need to post every time they perform a task..even if it is their first time and they have no clue what they are doing...using their phone...making everyone dizzy moving it around.
 
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Doug Reid said:
I don't mind the shows, but "look at me" I can do without.

Specifically people who feel the need to post every time the perform a task..even if it is their first time and they have no clue what they are doing...using their phone...making everyone dizzy moving it around.
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Yup, I just don't watch them, out of sight out of mind. I just recently pulled the plug on one because he decided to say some stupid political stuff. See ya!!!

Believe it or not though, and it shouldn't be too hard to believe because out of 350+ million people in this country alone , only about a half million are pilots. There are lots of curious people who are dying to experience what we perceive to be mundane.
 
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RyanShort1 said:
That's pretty normal flying weather in West Texas. That's pretty doable on takeoff unless you are in a "kite" but of course landing is more interesting, but thankfully many airports have more than one runway option.
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Wouldn't want to be taking off in a 172 in that.
 
PaulS said:
Wouldn't want to be taking off in a 172 in that.
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I get to fly out there every week, many times in 172s, though usually in a Cardinal.

We cross paths frequently with these guys out of Skywest, and they fly 172s out there all the time, frequently low-ish time commercial pilots building time and experience.

https://www.americanpatrols.com/
 
Jim K said:
I was more impressed the cirrus pilot managed to take off and land without balling it up. I'm not sure what the max demonstrated x wind is on a Cirrus, but the pipers i fly run out of rudder around 20 knots. If it's above the max demonstrated number, that's a no-go for me. One of the reasons being based at an airport with perpendicular runways is important to me.
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I've landed close to 30 crosswind in the 22 (thanks Page for having just one runway!), it does xwind real well.. faster approach speed and higher wing loading I think help


Not sure I get all the "cirrus pilot" stuff in the thread.. weren't the last few boneheaded crashes caused by a bad "go" decision from non cirrus drivers? The Centurion in ice being flown by a guy who couldn't intercept a localizer just a few months back... just to name one, he probably should have stayed on the ground
 
Tantalum said:
Not sure I get all the "cirrus pilot" stuff in the thread.. weren't the last few boneheaded crashes caused by a bad "go" decision from non cirrus drivers? The Centurion in ice being flown by a guy who coul)dn't intercept a localizer just a few months back... just to name one, he probably should have stayed on the ground
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Because the Cirrus driver was obviously the only person stupid enough to fly that day...as indicated by the conversation between the tower and other aircraft in flight. ;)
 
Oldmanb777 said:
Put your paycheck on the line, and it becomes almost impossible to make the right decision.
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Actually it is not is nearly impossible to make the correct go / no go decision when you make a living from flying. If you fly bash the plane not only is your pay check on the line, so is your future employability and maybe your life.

Yes, you weren’t employed to tell your employer you can’t go, but a man has to know his and his machines limitations and make the decision. Have been there and done it.
 
Clip4 said:
Actually it is not is nearly impossible to make the correct go / no go decision when you make a living from flying. If you fly bash the plane not only is your pay check on the line, so is your future employability and maybe your life.

Yes, you weren’t employed to tell your employer you can’t go, but a man has to know his and his machines limitations and make the decision. Have been there and done it.
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Agreed. My crew made a very significant no-go photography call yesterday and returned to Dallas. Both my boss, and the client were very understanding and we'll fly it the next day that works.
 
Fine decision not to fly on this day. Making fun of the city's Cirrus pilot for clicks seems a tad uncool to me, but <shrug>.

I'm more concerned that now we have to worry about drivers making YouTube videos and talking to to the camera while driving down the freeway. :(
 
RyanShort1 said:
frequently low-ish time commercial pilots building time and experience.
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What seems like a lifetime ago, I was employed in the pipeline integrity department for a major pipeline company. Most patrol pilots circa 15 years ago were much more experienced than you'd think for a job that involved flying along in a 172/182. Pretty sure they had a 1000hr min if memory serves.
 
Todd82 said:
What seems like a lifetime ago, I was employed in the pipeline integrity department for a major pipeline company. Most patrol pilots circa 15 years ago were much more experienced than you'd think for a job that involved flying along in a 172/182. Pretty sure they had a 1000hr min if memory serves.
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The link I posted - their minimum is 400.

https://theapplicantmanager.com/careers?co=pa
 
Tantalum said:
Not sure I get all the "cirrus pilot" stuff in the thread.. weren't the last few boneheaded crashes caused by a bad "go" decision from non cirrus drivers?
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The "cirrus pilot stuff" is because the guy in the video was.... flying a Cirrus. Had he been flying a 172, id have called him "Skyhawk pilot", and been much more impressed.

The fact that you view the term "cirrus pilot" as a pejorative says more about you than me :p
 
Jim K said:
The "cirrus pilot stuff" is because the guy in the video was.... flying a Cirrus. Had he been flying a 172, id have called him "Skyhawk pilot", and been much more impressed.

The fact that you view the term "cirrus pilot" as a pejorative says more about you than me :p
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his perspective was probably skewed by the OP when he read your post.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I get to fly out there every week, many times in 172s, though usually in a Cardinal.

We cross paths frequently with these guys out of Skywest, and they fly 172s out there all the time, frequently low-ish time commercial pilots building time and experience.

https://www.americanpatrols.com/
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Too bumpy for me in a 172, they are great planes, but I like it a little calmer when I fly them.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Because the Cirrus driver was obviously the only person stupid enough to fly that day...as indicated by the conversation between the tower and other aircraft in flight. ;)
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Yup, I was trying to figure that one out too. Was it because he was in a Cirrus he was disqualified from flying in bumpy weather?
 
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